Offensive comments about self taught dancers

[LadyFatima]

Forgive me, because I'm about to get on my soapbox right now, but I promise to keep my comments lady-like and rated PG. . .


So about half an hour ago, I was online just looking up random articles and websites about belly dancing and what not (because that's what I tend to do at 6am when I'm bored and can't fall back asleep:lol and I came across this one blog written a few years ago by an instructor who had been a professional dancer/teacher for about 8 or 9 years.

In her blog, she was basically blasting various apparently "self-taught" belly dancers who had been posting their private videos and performances online.Apparently these young women had at some point, proudly mentioned that they had taught themselves to belly dance without ever taking any formal classes or lessons. What bothered me was that instead of just giving constructive criticism on the technique of the self taught ladies, she gave a score of rude comments about how she just couldn't believe that anyone "could be proud of the fact that they've never taken any formal lessons in belly dancing."

It seemed like everything about these women upset her; their style, technique, choice of costume, everything. Now I've seen some of these self taught dancers and I would personally understand her point of view better if perhaps these women had been performing some sort of dressed up version of a strip tease or burlesque dance, but from what I can tell, there really wasn't anything wrong with the way they danced. . .other than the fact that they had never received any formal training.

Now in my ONLY defense for this angry instructor, I will say that I can understand if a person who has been been professionally trained in dancing dislikes the idea of a non-trained dancer performing a skill that took them years to cultivate. However, I don't think it's fair to judge a person's worthiness as a performer SOLELY on the fact that they've never received formal training.

Speaking from experience, I have been training myself in belly dancing for close to 8 months now. Never took a class, never had any one on one instruction other than watching tutorials on various techniques and just watching the performances of other dancers and imitating them. Now I wouldn't go as far to say that I'm "proud" of never being given formal lessons, but I'm certainly not ashamed of it either.
I'm a full time university student. I have a driver's license but (unfortunately) no car. I had a part-time job but I had to quit, so I'm currently unemployed. (Which means that until I find another job or save up enough money, I wouldn't be able to pay for lessons anyway).

I fully realize that there are downsides to not having formal lessons, and until the time when I can actually get professional instruction I understand that my style and technique will look somewhat "untrained." But I really and truly love and respect the art of belly dancing; it's given me a sense of dignity, spirituality, and self love that I've never experienced before. It gives me an escape from a reality that I'm not always thrilled about living in. So yeah, I get testy at the idea of someone telling me that I shouldn't be happy and proud about doing what I do. Because for me at this point, if I don't continue to self teach myself how to dance, my only other option is to sit around my bedroom and REFUSE to ever do another belly roll or hip shimmy until a certified instructor shows me how. . . (not happening)

I mean, I practice for 2-3 hours a day (give or take). I go online and read as much as I can about belly dancing so I can get a better understanding of it, I come to this (amazing) site and get advice and tips from other dancers, both professional and non-professional. I watch instructional videos, I watch videos of the legendary Egyptian dancers. . .I'm doing the best with what I can work with. I plan on eventually taking formal lessons in the future, because I want to be able to show off my refined skill and style just like the legends and modern day professional lady dancers (or the "Big Girls" as I like to call them)
But until that day comes, I will continue to practice in my room in front of my mirror, and dance my heart out; with no fear and no shame

*hops off her soapbox*

 

[Suzanne Azhaar]

Very well said. :clap::clap::clap:

I remember when the only thing I had to practice with was a single vhs tape "Magical Motion". No such thing as the internet, no teacher available until classes started again in January, required to wait five months.

Sure there are cringe worthy dancers, instructor or not, expensive costume or not, zills or not.

Instructors should continue to see the experience of dance from the student's perspective. Is this just exercise? A form of socializing? Just for fun? Finances are difficult? No instructor near by? Physical or emotional disabilities? Family obligations (priorities)?

I'm sorry her venting (instructors are human) caused you stress. Your dedication (2-3 hours per day of dancing, whew!) is every instructor's dream student. Keep dancing :dance:

 

[~Diana~]

Well it is a blog for one so it is only personal opinion. In blogs one should never expect the author to balance out a view point. Second was she talking about people who present themselves as professional dancers or was she ranting on poor hobbies people? It makes a difference. If only hobbyist, then no that is a little harsh. However if these people are presenting themselves as professional dancers and being paid for performances then they are going to be held to a different standard by the bellydance community.

However, I don't think it's fair to judge a person's worthiness as a performer SOLELY on the fact that they've never received formal training.

It's not but it happens all the time. Again it also depends on how they are presenting themselves. If presenting as a professional dancer (of any form) than yes self taught is a huge issue. If a ballet dancer were to try out for a show and on her resume was 'I learned from videos' or 'self-taught' you can guarantee that they would not be hired or at least looked over.

It is the same thing in the work world. Employers check out your training and work experience. Would you hire a electrician to work on your house, hire a mechanic to work on your car, or let a doctor do surgery on you who was 'self-taught' vie books or youtube? I personally wouldn't no matter how professional they put themselves out as. There is only so much one can learn from videos and being self-taught, a lot has to come from in person instruction by people who have experience and knowledge in the field. I've met dancers who thought they were great (they learned self-taught) but even I (with only my 4 years of dancing experience) was able to point of problems with their posture, incorrect movement, and incorrectly learned positions.

Second hiring dancers usually involves a large amount of money. Businesses look at qualifications and experience, not just 'look i can shake my ass.'

This topic has been argued to death on this site and many others already. You are always going to find those who hold everyone to a higher standard of dance and what needs to be included to qualify.

 

[shiradotnet]

In her blog, she was basically blasting various apparently "self-taught" belly dancers who had been posting their private videos and performances online.

The problem, I think, is that most people claiming to be "self taught" haven't actually done serious study. They've merely imitated a Shakira music video or took a zumba class that had a "belly dance" section and decided that was sufficient to call themselves "belly dancers".

Youtube is saturated with videos of young women prancing around their bedrooms to a Shakira song in an underwear-bra, $10 hip scarf, and broomstick skirt, and calling it "belly dancing". Often, their poor technique is the BEST thing about their "performance". Too many of these videos involve the dancers groping themselves, enacting their sexual fantasies on video for all to see and mislabeling it "belly dancing". Such videos are very damaging to belly dancing because they misrepresent what our dance form is.

 

[LadyFatima]

Very well said. :clap::clap::clap:

I remember when the only thing I had to practice with was a single vhs tape "Magical Motion". No such thing as the internet, no teacher available until classes started again in January, required to wait five months.

Sure there are cringe worthy dancers, instructor or not, expensive costume or not, zills or not.

Instructors should continue to see the experience of dance from the student's perspective. Is this just exercise? A form of socializing? Just for fun? Finances are difficult? No instructor near by? Physical or emotional disabilities? Family obligations (priorities)?

I'm sorry her venting (instructors are human) caused you stress. Your dedication (2-3 hours per day of dancing, whew!) is every instructor's dream student. Keep dancing :dance:

Thank you very, very much for your kind words and your blessing

And likewise, I totally agree with your response as well. . .being professionally trained in something (dancing, singing, painting, etc) doesn't always gurantee that the person will turn out to be a class act. It's just luck of the draw.

And you seriously only had ONE VHS to practice to for 5 months??!:shok: Poor sweetie. . . But seriously, that's amazing. I'm spoiled compared to what you had to work with.

And yes, you're right about the instructor who wrote those comments was just being human. People on this particular message board often type things I don't always necessarily agree with; the trick is picking and choosing your battles wisely.

Anyway, thanks again for your kind words, they definitely made me feel better:clap::clap:

 

[Starmouth]

I don't see that there is anything wrong in being self-taught for a while, but I would imagine that there will come a point after which you can go no further without instruction - the critique a good instructor can offer is invaluable.

 

[mahsati_janan]

There are extraordinarily few completely self-taught professional dancers. There are a few who are amazing and truly have studied as deeply as they can without an experienced guide. I don't think anyone has an issue with those dancers' skills as performers.

Most instructors/performers’ issue with self-taught dancers revolves around dancers who are not well-trained performing inappropriately or in ways that are dangerous or those who teach poor technique, false information, and injurious technique. It isn’t the hobbyist dancer who is learning and dancing for their friends; it is the untrained dancer with poor technique passing themselves off as a professional teacher or performer. These are the same dancers who make it so difficult for those prodigies who are completely self-taught because the untrained dancers who do not have the technique make it easy for trained dancers to dismiss those without training as a group instead of weighing each on their merits.

This happens in every dance form. Self-taught dancers often try out for troupes, shows, theatre presentations, etc. and are almost invariably disappointed when they are not chosen. Students learn more in a dance classroom than technique. They learn how to learn in a group setting, how to be a seamless part of a choreography, the shorthand for movements and stage patterns, and a lot more. It is easy as a self-taught dancer to get caught in the ‘don’t know what you don’t know’ trap.

Training is far from the only thing that goes to making a professional dancer, but it is a vital component. Even self-taught dancers generally begin attending workshops and/or find a dance mentor/coach to help them continue to improve past the basics.

I wouldn’t take the person’s rant to heart. It is on a personal blog and is the opinion of the author. We don’t know her experiences with self-taught dancers or her situation, but we do know that it isn’t about us. It is about her frustration with a problem she sees in her dance community.

 

[Sara]

I think when we consider belly dance we must also realise and appreciate that it is a cultural dance, that people of those cultures teach themselves from watching others. It is not really something they have classes in. That is a more western idea. I learnt to dance from my family, and started taking lessons to learn to distinguish between styles.

With proper dedication and a touch of natural talent I believe that it is possible to become an amazing dancer, as long as you do enough proper research and gain experience of different styles through performances etc.

 

[Yame]

I can understand your frustration. You fell in love with this dance and you are trying your best to learn, but your only option right now is to do this on your own, since you can't get to an instructor. Reading this kind of rant is hurtful because if you could take classes, you would.

There are many people in your situation. There are people who don't have access to a teacher for whatever reason (the closest teacher is too far away, or all the teachers close to you are beneath your level, or aren't good teachers, or are a completely different style, or you have no money, or you have no transportation, etc), but they make the most out of what they have.

I am not the person who wrote this rant, but I don't believe it would have been aimed at people like you. I think this rant may have been aimed at people who teach themselves a couple of moves from a music video and then go around calling themselves belly dancers. As you said, it can also be frustrating for those of us who are dedicated, who do our best to be our best, to see people who can't even dance presenting whatever it is that they are doing as belly dance. I've seen some horrid videos out there of people who call themselves self-taught belly dancers, and then the people watching will think "oh, so this is all it takes to be a belly dancer?" I don't think it does anybody any good.

There is nothing wrong with students, self-taught or not, uploading videos to share with others, what is annoying is people who pretend to be professionals when they have horrible technique and no knowledge, or posting "belly dance" videos trying to copy Beyonce (who isn't even a belly dancer) or something. You definitely don't fall into that category.

So, there is no need for you to take offense to that rant. Just remember, once you are able to take classes, please do so! Unless you have a bad teacher, you can improve so much more, and so much more quickly if you have help.

 

[goddessyasaman]

I Do not think that self taught is a bad thing, why would one get upset about such a thing? is it the fact that you did not or could not learn on your own? or do you think as a instructor if more women were self taught you would not have business? I would ask that instrcutor these type of questions, I think someone can learn on thier own if they put everything into it, some things and art being one does not have to be taught or learned in a class or from a instructor, if you must learn on your own then do so with great Passion. And let no one stop you.

 

[Ariadne]

but from what I can tell, there really wasn't anything wrong with the way they danced. . .other than the fact that they had never received any formal training.

...

Speaking from experience, I have been training myself in belly dancing for close to 8 months now. Never took a class, never had any one on one instruction other than watching tutorials on various techniques and just watching the performances of other dancers and imitating them.

I am also a student dancer. I have been studying off and on for a few years now and due to health and where I live some of it has been self study (I started with "Magical Motion" too ) and some has been in class but I started out in self study because that is what I had. Looking back when I had been teaching myself from a video for "close to 8 months" I couldn't see a thing wrong with the dancing in those videos either, now however I cringe when I stumble on them.

You just cannot substitute for an experience teacher. So many of these girls have no idea what they are doing and don't know that they don't know and then put out these videos on youtube that other girls who haven't had any training imitate and use to learn from. That would be like me deciding to learn ballet by imitating some "how to" video on youtube and thinking I was learning just as well/much as from a class... come to think of it a few years ago that is exactly what was happening. Experts in the field spoke out about the very real danger of serious injury from incorrect teachings. Locally there is a BD teacher here who taught herself from videos and has gone on to teach possibly hundreds what she learned. At least some of them have landed in my chiropractors office from injuries to their spine from incorrect technique.

Unless you give a link to the blog we can't know if it was an unjustified rant or just one of the many speaking out against a very real problem. You can be offended by it or learn from it. Yes there are some who can successfully learn from a video but they are the (very small) exception to the rule and usually will already have some background in formal dance lessons albeit another style. Realizing this and not accepting instruction from a self taught youtube tutorial could make a huge difference in minimizing bad habits you will need to break when you finally can get to a class.

 

[MissVega]

As a predominantly self taught dancer one of my least favourite questions is "who did you study with?", simply because I don't like saying that I am mainly self taught, I feel sometimes it's like opening Pandora's box. Mind you this is with other dancers, I find I don't mind so much with audience member's, or people of arabic background as they don't seem to really mind. But I have gotten judgement from other dancers for it. So there is some truth to it perhaps.

You work with what you have available to you and do the best that you can with it. I got to go to my first workshop in the fall of 2009 and go to any that I can get to & afford to that are of interest to me. I enjoy workshops, simply because it gives you a chance to see how another dancer moves in person, where they power their moves from etc. Some things just don't translate on video. I actually just did a workshop on performing with live middle eastern music that covered a topic I was incredibly interested in, how the band and dancer communicate when they are doing improv and don't know one another. I obviously knew that there had to be some sort of signal/communication system but I didn't know if it was initiated by the dancer or musicians. And that is something I certainly was having a hard time trying to figure out by watching youtube videos since I don't know if the performance was spoken about prior, really improv etc.

I think the ability to be a strong self taught dancer largely depends on how critical ones eye is and how they can spot their own mistakes and figure out how to correct them. I also think thanks to things like Youtube we are at an advantage since we can see professional level performance whenever we want if you know what to look for. Inspiration is incredibly important.


Not surprised that Shakira was brought up again. I'm a Shakira fan, doubt I would have ever looked into belly dance if it wasn't for her lol! I have a video on youtube of myself practicing to shakira and I didn't even label or title it belly dance and I got some flack that belly dancers don't dance like that blah blah blah. They brought it up, not me. Go figure. The video is tagged caribbean fusion and belly dance as well as my name though since sometimes people search for my videos based on that criteria. But there is something it seems about the whole shakira/belly dance association that puts people on edge.

 

[LadyFatima]

I think when we consider belly dance we must also realise and appreciate that it is a cultural dance, that people of those cultures teach themselves from watching others. It is not really something they have classes in. That is a more western idea. I learnt to dance from my family, and started taking lessons to learn to distinguish between styles.

With proper dedication and a touch of natural talent I believe that it is possible to become an amazing dancer, as long as you do enough proper research and gain experience of different styles through performances etc.

WOW! That's amazing!:shok: You said what I wanted to say but you did it much better (and in much more simple words).:lol:

I've always felt that way as well; that dancing. . .any dance, is one of those things in life that can be perfected and cultivated without outside help. Like for example, learning how to walk or ride a bike: someone can show you how to do it correctly and even "give you a little push", but the rest comes from you. It's possible for person to take dancing lessons for months, but never take their skill to the next level, a teacher can only take you so far.
And I say that with absolutely NO disrespect to anyone out there, either instructor or student.

And I liked what you said about it being a cultural dance and people learning it through teaching themselves/watching others. Self-taught dancers may have to work a little harder to perfect their skill and yes, they'll probably need formal instruction eventually but, in my personal opinion as long as you have love and respect for your art and give it 100%, that's all that really makes a difference in the end.

 

[LadyFatima]

I Do not think that self taught is a bad thing, why would one get upset about such a thing? is it the fact that you did not or could not learn on your own? or do you think as a instructor if more women were self taught you would not have business? I would ask that instrcutor these type of questions, I think someone can learn on thier own if they put everything into it, some things and art being one does not have to be taught or learned in a class or from a instructor, if you must learn on your own then do so with great Passion. And let no one stop you.

It seems like there are a lot of mixed views on here when it comes to self-teaching vs professional instruction. :think:

I was intrigued by the questions you brought up, about instructors getting upset at the idea about not being able to self teach themselves how to dance or getting upset about possibly losing business.
I still stick with what (you and) I said before: certain arts don't HAVE to be formally taught; especially if it's just for fun/as a hobby.

For example, I don't ever plan on becoming a professional belly dancer. This is strictly something I do for me for health and entertainment purposes. Sure, I'd like to perform privately for family members and friends at parties and things like that from time to time, but this definitely ISN'T something I want to make a career out of. If by some circumstance, I continue belly dancing for the next several years and NEVER set foot inside of a practice room, I will see it as unfortunate, but I will have no regrets.

And I DEFINITELY agree what you said about having passion. When it comes to belly dancing (and other areas of the performing arts as well), you can tell the difference between someone who truly has a passion for what they're doing, and someone who's just sort of goofing around (and I definitely think that a lot of so called "self taught" belly dancers fit into that area but as far as I'm concerned, they really don't count.)

 

[Salome]

I appreciate that limited funds, transportation, lack of a teacher etc. etc. coupled with the desire to learn belly dance can mean someone relies solely on video, you tube and whatnot to pursue their interest. You do the best with what you have. I understand that and am not shooting that down.

But the minute you have an aspiration to put yourself out there - even as a student performer - real life, interactive education needs to be met out.

I saw a girl perform who in her announcement claimed to be self taught and had been dancing many years. She came out with assaya and did not know the first thing about what she was doing. The costume was wrong, the music was wrong, the movement wrong. And at one point she squatted up and down in front of the cane like she was grinding her crotch on it. Besides being terribly disappointing it also really pissed me off.

If someone wants to take it seriously enough to get on stage, on you tube, to teach… then they need to take it seriously enough to get to class.

 

[Shanazel]

Salome stated my viewpoint perfectly.

 

[Salome]

I think when we consider belly dance we must also realise and appreciate that it is a cultural dance, that people of those cultures teach themselves from watching others

Absolutely, but dancing on a social level is quite a different thing than carrying a staged performance. People who perform on stage ‘over there’, train formally - the oriental dancers and the folkloric ones.

 

[Daimona]

Well said, Salome!

LadyFatima: Even if you don't intend to perform professionally and you are a serious student probably spending more time on your dance education than many (if not most) students taking regular classes, I would advice you to save enough money to take at least one private lesson with a reputable teacher to be absolutely sure you don't do anything that will harm yourself physically. It may help you prevent future damage and will certainly bring your dance further whatever level you are on or are reaching for.

 

[Sara]

If you're going to teach then I would say you definately need classes. Not just to be able to teach movement and styles either, but so you ave experience of what a class is like, you are familliar with warming up and layout, and you have an idea of what is to be expected (ie/how students and an instructor should behave etc).

I do believe taking classes is the best idea because then you know if you are dancing correctly and have access to someone who is experienced to share their experiences and knowledge. I personally take classes because I feel I have direction and I know I am achieving something and I have an awesome teacher. ^_^

I do not think it is fair however to say that you can only be a truly amazing dancer/performer if you have taken lessons.

 

[Machiavellia]

I appreciate that limited funds, transportation, lack of a teacher etc. etc. coupled with the desire to learn belly dance can mean someone relies solely on video, you tube and whatnot to pursue their interest. You do the best with what you have. I understand that and am not shooting that down.

But the minute you have an aspiration to put yourself out there - even as a student performer - real life, interactive education needs to be met out.

Seriously, this. When I consider all of the things I've sacrificed to become a professional dancer (moving to another province away from family and friends, huge financial investment in travel and workshops, hours and hours of class, rehearsal and personal practice every week for the last five years) it blows my mind that people will take the self-teaching route with the aim of performance, or teaching others.

Not that everyone wants to go pro, if it's just an interest then go ahead and dance along on video, that's wonderful. . But as far as dancing onstage in a theatre, I don't believe there's any substitute for long term, in-person dance instruction, just as in any dance form.