Egyptian dance?

[Avariel]

Oh that stuff.Okay, here's the deal with that. Everybody in Egypt does some version of stick dance, its not specific to the Ghawazee. The thing they do with the canes between each other is something I've seen done by other people, (non professionals) in upper Egypt as well as in Cairo. As far as the type of cane, they will pretty much dance with anything they feel like, it doesn't have to be one or the other. They will dance with the straight cane, curved cane, whatever is closest to hand. The times I've seen the Banat Mazin they used the hooked canes, but I've also seen Khiriya borow a cane from one of the guys and dance with it.

I totally get that I never said that Ghawazee stick dance was the only stick dance out there, but it's probably the most insular form given the isolation of some of the tribes that practice it, and it's also the one that I specifically learned. I can't really give my own thoughts or suggest dance forms to someone if I haven't practiced them, so I talk about the ones I have.

 

[Kashmir]

Maybe Denise was describing what I was where they dance with the cane between each other. That's the only way they could dance with them and still play, or when they're on their heads. I don't see how it would be possible to play them and manipulate the cane at the same time.

She would have seen it back in the 60s or 70s. And you can manipulate a cane (eg spinning it) and play zills at the same time. She does - and after quite a bit of practice I could too (haven't tried it for a while though)

 

[Tarik Sultan]

She would have seen it back in the 60s or 70s. And you can manipulate a cane (eg spinning it) and play zills at the same time. She does - and after quite a bit of practice I could too (haven't tried it for a while though)

I'd have to see it being done. I know Khireya personally and have seen her and her sister dance many time but never saw any of them doing anything like what was described to you.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I totally get that I never said that Ghawazee stick dance was the only stick dance out there, but it's probably the most insular form given the isolation of some of the tribes that practice it, and it's also the one that I specifically learned. I can't really give my own thoughts or suggest dance forms to someone if I haven't practiced them, so I talk about the ones I have.

I wasn't implying that you said that, just pointing out that what they do is not really specific to them alone but shared within the region. The cane dance is something they would do during the course of their performance for a few minutes, then they would sing folk songs. Usually their routines were split in two halfs. The first half they would dance in the fancy outfits, then the second they would change into beladi dresses and dance in the same manner, playing cymbals, then they would do the cane for a few minutes and continue dancing, then sing a few songs before dancing again and ending.

They are not isolated from society although they generally perform for the community rather than for tourists. The Banat Mazin live amongst the general population in the Luxor region. All the things that they do with the cane are things that are pretty much done by everyone in the region. The majority of people live in the Nile valley which is a very narrow corridor and densly populated. There are the oasis towns like Bahariya, Kharag, Siwa etc, but the Ghawazee never settled in those areas. They pretty much went to the larger urban areas where they could earn a steady income.

 

[Jane]

One of the folkloric troupes used to do a simple cane and sagat dance. It was Ahmad Khalil Dance Co. I believe.

 

[Ahava_Melantha]

Amazon.com: Raks Al Asaya: Various: Movies & TV

has anyone tired that dvd? are there any other dvds besides this one on cane dancing? i have so longed to do that one. I would love to do a sword dance - but i live in a small appartment and my kidz . . . yeah, I'd hate explaining that one in the er, lol.

 

[Bellydance Oz]

no, actually I saw dina.

I wasn't terribly impressed.

I saw Dina too, and was also disappointed. She did very little real dancing in the performance I saw - she spent most of her time walking around, interacting with the audience and miming to the music. A pity, because when she did dance, it was great.

 

[Bellydance Oz]

what I meant by "tight" was some of the moves where tighter, like not really big hip moves and stuff.

I must say, that's the impression I have, too. We have one dancer here in Sydney who came back from Egypt with a very subtle style. I can appreciate and applaud the amount of technique needed to move with such control - but personally I find her performances pretty but unexciting. But she is very popular with Egyptians in Sydney so I guess it is the style they prefer.

 

[Ahava_Melantha]

nice to know i'm not the only one

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I saw Dina too, and was also disappointed. She did very little real dancing in the performance I saw - she spent most of her time walking around, interacting with the audience and miming to the music. A pity, because when she did dance, it was great.

You can't use Dina as the yardstick because she was/is deliberately trying to be different. Therefore, she doesn't do all of the typical movements that you'd expect to see. The other thing you have to keep in mind is that most of us do not speak the language, nor do we have the emotional connection with the songs the way that Egyptians do, so there is a lot going on that flies under our radar. Once you really understand that the dance is more than just movement, an emotional expression through movement, you can stop looking for the rock 'em sock 'em factor and relax and accept it on its own terms. Kind of like if you think all beautiful women have to be rail thin and blond, you'll never realize that the full figured brunette or redhead is just as beautiful. For those not "into" the Egyptian style, it takes a while to get to that place. You may get there one day, just keep an open mind and enjoy where you are in the dance and your understanding of it for now.

 

[Jane]

Here is an older clip of Dina doing more of a straight dance piece. I think she's a brilliant artist of the first caliber.

I think the expectations of occidental dancers are different when viewing performances. Egyptian dancers are usually doing several parts of a longer show and that's where the showmanship, including the miming and running around on the stage, comes into play. It's about taking some time casually dancing before being able to settle in to emotionally connect with the music and audience during a show.

When a occidental dancer gets a four minute time limit to show off their well rehearsed choreography and slick technique tricks rather than reaching a state of tarab, that time isn't needed. Most western audiences are used to pow-bang-in-your-face-fast-fast-fast type of brief performances. It takes a while to get used to a different aesthetic.

 

[Kashmir]

Yasmina tells of how when she started dancing in Cairo she went out there and did it all. She finally worked out what the audience meant by "shawayyer, shawayyer" - do less; let the audience appreciate her dancing; let them breathe. Personally this is one thing that attracts me to Egyptian style in general - yes, if needed the technique can come out - but not all the time; a dancer isn't an Everready Bunny.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

You can't use Dina as the yardstick because she was/is deliberately trying to be different. Therefore, she doesn't do all of the typical movements that you'd expect to see. The other thing you have to keep in mind is that most of us do not speak the language, nor do we have the emotional connection with the songs the way that Egyptians do, so there is a lot going on that flies under our radar. Once you really understand that the dance is more than just movement, an emotional expression through movement, you can stop looking for the rock 'em sock 'em factor and relax and accept it on its own terms. Kind of like if you think all beautiful women have to be rail thin and blond, you'll never realize that the full figured brunette or redhead is just as beautiful. For those not "into" the Egyptian style, it takes a while to get to that place. You may get there one day, just keep an open mind and enjoy where you are in the dance and your understanding of it for now.

This. There are better measuring sticks, and you can never go wrong with Fifi.

I've been doing Egyptian for many years and my body is feeling just fine.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Here is an older clip of Dina doing more of a straight dance piece. I think she's a brilliant artist of the first caliber.

I think the expectations of occidental dancers are different when viewing performances. Egyptian dancers are usually doing several parts of a longer show and that's where the showmanship, including the miming and running around on the stage, comes into play. It's about taking some time casually dancing before being able to settle in to emotionally connect with the music and audience during a show.

When a occidental dancer gets a four minute time limit to show off their well rehearsed choreography and slick technique tricks rather than reaching a state of tarab, that time isn't needed. Most western audiences are used to pow-bang-in-your-face-fast-fast-fast type of brief performances. It takes a while to get used to a different aesthetic.

Right on the head! We tend to come to this dance through the filter of our culture. Our dances such as Jazz and hip-hop etc are very athletic high intesity. There's not a lot of emotional depth. therefore we tend to look for these qualities in an Oriental dancer and may become boared if there isn't enough action. Egyptian dance is more organic and holistic in nature. Its not just about movement, but music and emotion as well. There can be moments for spectacular technique, but it when its called for in the music, not just to show what you can do.

Take the clip of Dina you posted. To "get it" you have to really love that music. Its not something you want to rush, its a journey and you want to enjoy the scenery along the way, maybe even stop to smell a flower. However, many of us come to the dance for other reasons than loving the music and wanting to melt into it. Some of us come for the costumes, some of us come because we think it would be cool to "move like that", some of us just want to be sexy and celebrate femininity. There's nothing wrong with any of these reasons, but these are just some of the factors which may contribute to some folks not having a taste for Egyptian style. For me, I'd gladly trade in the rock em sockem for a nice walk down a country lane in spring time. I want to see that personality, spirit, witty playfullness, celebration of life and the dancer melting into the music that you get in Egyptian dance.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

This. There are better measuring sticks, and you can never go wrong with Fifi.

I've been doing Egyptian for many years and my body is feeling just fine.

Fifi had the greatest amount of influence on my dance style. Very earthy and real! Not very showy, but full of energy and personality.

 

[Pirika Repun]

Talking bout Fifi, these are two of my favorite videos.
One is her assaya of course. I love her asaya. Tito and Fifi are two of my cane idol!

The other video is with Ahmed Adwaya and my favorite "Bint el Sultan" I'm sure some people will say she doesn't do anything but just walking around audience, BUT actually she does everything! Audience get into both Adwaya and Fifi and they were enjoying both music and dance because dance matched to the music! If Fifi did some Shrqi style dance with arabesque, traveling steps, and all fancy moves or show (off) many different techniques with well choreographed moves audience might not into it. How many dancers get into audience just doing shimmy? I'm sure Fifi (and Tito) is one of them.

Assaya


Shaabi
with Ahmed Adawaya

 

[Bellydance Oz]

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that most of us do not speak the language, nor do we have the emotional connection with the songs the way that Egyptians do, so there is a lot going on that flies under our radar. Once you really understand that the dance is more than just movement, an emotional expression through movement, you can stop looking for the rock 'em sock 'em factor and relax and accept it on its own terms. Kind of like if you think all beautiful women have to be rail thin and blond, you'll never realize that the full figured brunette or redhead is just as beautiful. For those not "into" the Egyptian style, it takes a while to get to that place. You may get there one day, just keep an open mind and enjoy where you are in the dance and your understanding of it for now.

Tarik, that sounds reasonable but I can't see how it applies to Dina, or at least, not the performance I saw. For most of the show, she just walked from one side of the stage to the other, lip syncing the lyrics and blowing kisses. Even if it was a piece of music I identified strongly with, I still would never call that dancing.

I do recognise that in a long show, you must pace yourself - but if the show is 70% pacing and 30% dancing, then surely the balance is wrong and you should modify the show. I saw a performance by Tanyeli the year before. She had a serious car crash and wasn't expected to dance again, yet there was far more actual dancing in her show than there was in Dina's.

Anyway, we're getting off topic here - which is not about Dina, it's about Egyptian style in general. My impression is that it's subtle, controlled and rather introspective. I relate much better to dancers who abandon themselves to the joy or sadness of the music, maybe because that's how I feel when I dance myself. That's a personal thing - we all have different responses to dance, I think, and that's OK.

As for learning that dance is more than just movement - the reason I gave up flamenco is that these days, flamenco is all about rhythm not music. For me personally, if there's no music, then movement is only exercise. So I get what you're saying about embodying the emotional expression of the music, but I stick to my opinion that strolling around the stage doesn't constitute interpretation.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Tarik, that sounds reasonable but I can't see how it applies to Dina, or at least, not the performance I saw. For most of the show, she just walked from one side of the stage to the other, lip syncing the lyrics and blowing kisses. Even if it was a piece of music I identified strongly with, I still would never call that dancing.

Well for one thing, like I said, you can't use Dina as the yard stick... most of the time, because she is deliberately trying to be different and has said as much. She doesn't like to use the standard movement vocabulary and trys as much to avoid it or come up with things that are unusual. This is what she herself has said. Its not that she can't do it, its that she doesn't want to do it. Second thing is that in Egypt people don't go to see a dancer because of their technique etc. They're not looking for who has the best shimmy or can layer a vibration on a figure 8 while doing an undulation. They go to experience that entertainer's personality. So no, its not all dance all the time. Another factor is that many times once a person has reached a certain level of fame, they don't always feel the need to "work as hard". And lastly, everybody has an off night unfortunately. Sometimes you're sick, sometimes you're tired, sometimes you're just sick and tired!:lol:

I do recognise that in a long show, you must pace yourself - but if the show is 70% pacing and 30% dancing, then surely the balance is wrong and you should modify the show. I saw a performance by Tanyeli the year before. She had a serious car crash and wasn't expected to dance again, yet there was far more actual dancing in her show than there was in Dina's.

The thing is with Dina you either love her or hate her. I was never a fan of her as a dancer. I have far more appreciation for her as a person, but I will say the last times I saw her dance she did a much better job than I was expecting.

Anyway, we're getting off topic here - which is not about Dina, it's about Egyptian style in general. My impression is that it's subtle, controlled and rather introspective. I relate much better to dancers who abandon themselves to the joy or sadness of the music, maybe because that's how I feel when I dance myself. That's a personal thing - we all have different responses to dance, I think, and that's OK.

Well the thing you have to realize is that how the dance is expressed is not going to be the same in every situation or with every dancer. What aspects of emotion get expressed depends on the music, how its expressed depends on the individual personality and ability of the dancer. Its hard to tell these days because there aren't as many dancers in Egypt as there once was and everyone tends to either be following Dina's lead or Rakia Hassan's lead. Back in the day, not too long ago, when you could see a different celebrity dancer every night of the week you could see this much better. they were all different. ShuShu was a big ball of fire, Sohair was the regal grand dame, Nagwa was the Las Vegas review, Fifi was the Ballsy Baladi babe big and bold, Lucy was the bouncy playfull one, Aida was the ice skater just gliding elegantly across the stage, Zahar Hamdi was just outrageous and raunchey as hell:redface:rotest::naghty::doh:. No 2 were alike, but what tied them all together was that sense of internalized movement, musical interpritation and personality and charm. However, there are some god dancers out there, Randa has developed her own identity, I'd just like to see more melodic interpritation rather than playing to the rhythm all the time, Soraya is just amazing with her blend of musical interpritation and technique and there are others. A friend of mine Luna of Cairo has developed into an awesome dancer after having moved there and begun performing. Just saw her a few weeks ago when she vistied. New friend Aleya wonderfull expression of music, movement and joy. And who could forget mister bad ass himself Tito. Nothing lazy about him at all, even when he's dancing a slow song.


Thing is once you understand what the pricies of Egyptian dance are, you do YOU'RE thing. You can draw inspiration from certain aspects of dancers, but never try to be them

As for learning that dance is more than just movement - the reason I gave up flamenco is that these days, flamenco is all about rhythm not music. For me personally, if there's no music, then movement is only exercise. So I get what you're saying about embodying the emotional expression of the music, but I stick to my opinion that strolling around the stage doesn't constitute interpretation.

Other thing to take into account is what the dancer is going for. Are they more Baladi oriented, or are they trying to immitate the reserved decorum of upper class women? Me personally, I like it more Baladi and earthy, Fifi, Tito, Naimat, Zainat, Sohair, Nabaweya and Aida when she's being herself down home girl and funky!

 

[Ahava_Melantha]

I love the vintage pieces. they're cute, especially the wedding one with lots of dancers and the wedding singer. very fun and cute.

 

[Avariel]

Right on the head! We tend to come to this dance through the filter of our culture. Our dances such as Jazz and hip-hop etc are very athletic high intesity. There's not a lot of emotional depth. therefore we tend to look for these qualities in an Oriental dancer and may become boared if there isn't enough action. Egyptian dance is more organic and holistic in nature. Its not just about movement, but music and emotion as well. There can be moments for spectacular technique, but it when its called for in the music, not just to show what you can do.

Take the clip of Dina you posted. To "get it" you have to really love that music. Its not something you want to rush, its a journey and you want to enjoy the scenery along the way, maybe even stop to smell a flower. However, many of us come to the dance for other reasons than loving the music and wanting to melt into it. Some of us come for the costumes, some of us come because we think it would be cool to "move like that", some of us just want to be sexy and celebrate femininity. There's nothing wrong with any of these reasons, but these are just some of the factors which may contribute to some folks not having a taste for Egyptian style. For me, I'd gladly trade in the rock em sockem for a nice walk down a country lane in spring time. I want to see that personality, spirit, witty playfullness, celebration of life and the dancer melting into the music that you get in Egyptian dance.

I totally get what you're saying here; but I completely disagree that the main difference between occidental and oriental dance is that oriental is somehow more connected to the emotion of the music and occidental is more technically proficient. As a former professional dancer who competed at national levels in jazz, ballet, tap, and hip hop, it's IMPOSSIBLE to dance well and not be connected to the music emotionally. Those two things have simply always gone together for me in my mind and are inseperable. I've seen Western dance be deeply emotional, connected, and also highly proficient and technically dazzling simultaneously. The first vintage b/w video you posted showcases a dancer like this, who is showing off skill and also connecting to the music/audience at the same time. The whole entire point of creating an incredible performance is the marrying of these two concepts, and while you can still have an "okay" performance with only one or the other, truly great dancers emote and display high technical prowess at the same time. This is what makes them great, and the fact that it's diffcult to reach this balance is what makes becoming a great dancer worth the hard work that goes into it. It does all us dancers a complete disservice to say that emotion is only found in Egyptian dance, or that the ability to emote during a dance is somehow connected to what style you're dancing; that's simply not at all true.

I agree that the music undoubtedly drives the choreography and determines the look, feel, and even the technique you use for a song, but that's applicable to any style; Middle Eastern music drives Egyptian bellydance, but I've heard such a wide range of fast, slow, poppy, or ethereal Egyptian music that in this regard, it makes it no different than any other style of bellydance and the music that each style brings to the table. There are slow songs, fast songs, in-betweeners and mixes of all of these. And slow, ethereal, "country lane" songs still have their potential for very impressive movements, some of which are more difficult and more technically challenging then shimmying at the speed of light or fluttering your belly as fast as you can, because slow moves require sustained muscle control over long, slowly paced music counts. Again, this isn't a difference between styles, it's a difference in the capabilities of the dancers we see on stage. It does not make emoting or connecting to the music specific to one style, simply specific to good belly dancers.