Level Changes-need help.

Taslin

New member
Grrrrrr. I have trouble with the things that i coming into BD i wouldnt have imagined. I can seriously master some harder technical moves but i have gotten really stuck on things that seem and look so simple as shoulder shimmy's (i have gotten help, they are coming along and there are threads on here about it), my arms, and now...Level changes.

Yes i do have somewhat bad knees. Nothing serious, no surgeries or whatever just pain and some cracking IF i do not watch my posture. I do watch my posture now more than ever since i am intensely dancing, but from "pampering them" i have no strength to do simple level changes where you bend while doing a move such as mayas, omis, or etc. let alone dance down the ground, bounce and then dance back up-which i adore and want to do! I dont have the 1. strength 2. balance 3. when im off balance i hurt my knees.

Rachel Brice recommended squats, squats until fatigued and then one more. What about balance? Do you ladies have any imput for how to improve balance for example im getting stronger but im wobbly leaning forward back, or just looking like a bowling pin about to fall down. Also i cant stand from off of the floor quickly or gracefully. where you put one knee on the floor and step up-it takes me forever compared to the other dancers and i look like im surfing on the way up.

So far i have squats , ankle strengthening exercises in my bag of help tricks. Oh yeah, lunges hurt my knees.

Advice?
 

goddessyasaman

New member
I have good balance because I do martial arts and a bit of Ballet, try getting into a martial arts like tai chi, and look into Ballet just some of the practice. If you can't do this then just try small balance training like standing on one foot only a little bit at a time, well when I teach my students I teach them Balance and Grace, So I teach them How to walk and change levels in the beginning so they get good training time in, but not every teacher goes over balance enough, I also have some what bad neens, but really you just need to let them rest whenever you can.
 

Mya

New member
i have a bad knee as well .... chondromalacia patella on the left knee, level changes also hurt me, what i tend to do is when i'm practising, if i know that i'm going to be doing it ALOT, i give it extra support with a band and that does help me. i only do that if i'm going to be doing it alot though because you do want to give the knee a chance to get stronger, especially if you wear costumes where your knees show and you can't sneak a bank under your skirt. :)
 

gisela

Super Moderator
Is it possible for you to do some leg practice in water? I have no experience of this, but I am thinking that you might be able to strengthen your thighs and the muscles that hold the knee in place, without putting to much strain on the knee itself?
Or get a short private lesson with a personal trainer or a physiotherapist. It could be worth the cost.
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
i have no strength to do simple level changes where you bend while doing a move such as mayas, omis, or etc.

Ok, here's where I venture into territory that is best prefaced with a "your mileage may vary" warning sticker:

Squats, to me, are darn useless for my dance. I've asked three personal trainers about how to do these properly, and they've all agreed that I AM doing the movement correctly, but it has NEVER helped me with the kind of strength you're talking about.

What DID help me was plies. I know it seems like the same movement, but it's not. Doing modern dance style plies in parallel position helped me develop the kind of strength you're talking about -- but if you don't use it, you lose it, so to speak, so you kind of have to keep doing them or lose the strength benefits.

I actually really like this dvd for the kind of exercises that would help you with your goals:

Body Motion :: All DVDs :: Cheeky Girls Productions

Here's a book with some good strengthening exercises based on problems ballet dancers face:

Amazon.com: Dancing Longer, Dancing Stronger: A Dancer's Guide to Improving Technique and Preventing Injury (9780916622985): Andrea Watkins, Priscilla Clarkson: Books


let alone dance down the ground, bounce and then dance back up-which i adore and want to do!

This movement is accomplished through using the legs, but also seriously engaging the "core" abdominals and thinking of never "stopping" the motion, but allowing it to be a gentle flex and straighten of the legs. A lot of people stop the movement when it gets to the bottom, and then you've lost the muscle -- "momentum" (I guess that's an okay word).

Again, the dvd mentioned above has exercises for this.



Rachel Brice recommended squats, squats until fatigued and then one more.

She learned that from Suhaila, and it's one of those big controversial issues with the method. I think a LOT of the effectiveness of the squat depends upon other muscle strength and how you're built. I can do Suhaila's (and Rachel's) squats all day without fatiguing the muscle group that is actually supposed to be targeted. Also squats help develop strength in a particular set of angles of contraction, but focused and directed plies will develop a greater (and stronger) range of motion, working the muscles both concentrically and eccentrically, which (in my opinion) is what's needed for smooth descents to the floor.

What I've noticed is that squats seem to help a lot of dancers on the DESCENT to the floor, but a different muscle activity is what drives the ASCENT up from the floor, and I've never seen squats help with the ascent.

Most students I've met have fewer problems descending and a lot more problems ascending. What we need are exercises to work the muscle groups responsible for the ascent -- and I don't know any particular specific ones. Any trainers want to chime in?


What about balance? Do you ladies have any imput for how to improve balance for example im getting stronger but im wobbly leaning forward back, or just looking like a bowling pin about to fall down.

A great deal of your balance has to do with alignment and what's going on in your "core."

Two tips:
1) Keep your core engaged and stable as you plie or descend. Keep everything pulled in and up, and engage the kegels. When you're ascending, think of straightening the legs rather than "lifting" the upper body upwards. It's a small thing but it seems to really help some people.
2) Keep the spine straight. Don't let the butt tip backward or the torso tip forward.

Also you might try having a barre or chair or some method of support within arms reach as you practice. Don't pull yourself up with your arms, but have the support there in case you fatigue or start to fall.

General balance issues can also be from poor ankle proprioception. The exercises on the dvd I mentioned help with that -- as can simple standing on one and two leg exercises. The book linked above gives ankle strengthening exercises, but keep in mind that if you're having a problem standing in one particular position, just actually STANDING there with good posture and alignment is a great way to help those balance issues.


Also i cant stand from off of the floor quickly or gracefully. where you put one knee on the floor and step up-it takes me forever compared to the other dancers and i look like im surfing on the way up.

That's a strength issue, and it MIGHT help to use the barre or chair -- but again, as a support and NOT a way to use your arms to pull you up.



Personal trainer. :) If you show them the movements you want to do, and ask for exercises to help build strength for those movements, they can set you up with a pretty specific routine.
 

Shanazel

Moderator
I have lifelong knee problems that have steadily worsened over the years. It is an inherited weakness and not due to injury or lack of physical conditioning. I simply don't do squats, lunges, or anything else than hurts them. Period. It's not worth it. Bad joints are bad joints and I've just learned to live with my limitations.

For balance, I teach my class plies, modified ron de jambes, and a few other exercises borrowed from ballet. I also emphasize posture and keeping one's eyes up- so many people try to look down at themselves while practicing instead of at the mirror and it always throws them off balance.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
I have good balance because I do martial arts and a bit of Ballet, try getting into a martial arts like tai chi, and look into Ballet just some of the practice.
Yes to ballet but I DO NOT recommend using marital arts to learn balance for BD. I had martial arts training when I was younger, I was quite serious about it in fact, and I presented a whole new set of problems for my teacher when she tried to teach me movements and posture. Yes martial arts teaches balance but it is a whole different set of movements and your center is very "grounded". Bellydance is all about being light on your feet. Martial arts teaches to never put yourself in a position where you can be knocked off balance. Bellydance is all about shifting balance and "toe work". The entire class would be following a movement or step change and my feet would "stick" to the floor because that was what they were trained to do. I had to shift to deliberately and consciously dancing in "cat stance" just to keep up. Now I'm back to doing gooey grounded movements and I'm running into trouble again. I'm fine while doing them but my transition...

No martial arts training for balancing in BD :naghty: it is the completely wrong posture/movement.



Ok, now about knees. I have similar trouble too and squats aggravate it rather then making it better. What I find works for me is first a good warm up and second strengthening the leg muscles through practicing floor work and the afore mentioned plies. Good luck! :D
 

Shanazel

Moderator
What good information on marttial arts, Ariadne! Thank you for insight into what the heck is going on with one of my students who is a devotee of karate.
 

Yame

New member
Interesting! So, I guess I am not the only one who doesn't "believe" in squats, but who does think pliés help and are lighter on the knees.

I actually don't have knee problems, but whenever I do squats, something feels odd. Nothing hurts, and I know the correct technique and pay attention to it, but something about the way my hips and knees are aligned make it so that my squats always look weird, and I feel like if I do them with heavy weights I will always be just one wrong move away from an injury.

My husband is a big believer in squats, and I am sure if you do squats with heavy weights you can gain some serious strength on those legs (and back, and core), but on the other hand I think certain body shapes are very injury prone when doing squats. My mom, who is shaped a lot like me, got seriously injured doing squats with weights, so that makes me think I should trust my instinct.

My legs aren't very strong, but I do feel that ballet is what has helped me the most with strengthening my legs (and my core), as well as improving balance, which I don't naturally have much of, either.
 

Fencai

New member
I told my trainer at the gym about my BD classes, and he added a balance exercise in there for me. He makes me do it, and then when I get balanced, he changes something.
So, here's what he has me doing currently.

take a weighted bar (He called it a balance bar and said there are ones with different weights in them) and hold it in both hands in front of you.

Take one leg, lunge back with it. Not too deep you want to keep your front leg at a 90 degree angle and with your knee safely positioned over your ankle. as you do this, bring the bar over your head

then, as you start to rise, continue to bring your back leg (the one you just lunged with) up so your foot is off the floor. He made me bring my foot to about knee level. and slowly lower the bar back in front of you

then, keeping your back flat, bend at the waist forward at the waist and try to touch the floor with the bar and keep your foot off the ground.

raise back up using your abdomen muscles, and bring the bar back to your waist and your foot back to the ground.

Do it 15 times each side. One leg will be easier than the other. Ive found it helps a lot on balance and it doesn't bother my right knee (which I totally blew out back in 2001.)


and i ADORE squats. Those are my favorite weight lifting exercise. I LOVE them! I can get really deep with them, and have been told by several trainers that I have impecable form. Even with my old knee injury, I am still able to do them, as long as I watch my form and do them properly.
 

teela

New member
For level changes, why do we automatically think about going down? I have to remind myself that level changes can be going up on the balls of our feet and then down. If I go downwards, I work on not squatting but going down till my heels are ready to come off the floor and then up. My knees do not like it when I go all the way down.
 

goddessyasaman

New member
Yes to ballet but I DO NOT recommend using marital arts to learn balance for BD. I had martial arts training when I was younger, I was quite serious about it in fact, and I presented a whole new set of problems for my teacher when she tried to teach me movements and posture. Yes martial arts teaches balance but it is a whole different set of movements and your center is very "grounded". Bellydance is all about being light on your feet. Martial arts teaches to never put yourself in a position where you can be knocked off balance. Bellydance is all about shifting balance and "toe work". The entire class would be following a movement or step change and my feet would "stick" to the floor because that was what they were trained to do. I had to shift to deliberately and consciously dancing in "cat stance" just to keep up. Now I'm back to doing gooey grounded movements and I'm running into trouble again. I'm fine while doing them but my transition...

No martial arts training for balancing in BD :naghty: it is the completely wrong posture/movement.



Ok, now about knees. I have similar trouble too and squats aggravate it rather then making it better. What I find works for me is first a good warm up and second strengthening the leg muscles through practicing floor work and the afore mentioned plies. Good luck! :D


Well it worked great for me but I have been doing martial arts since I was 4 and I never stopped, but I have studied many styles of martial arts so maybe thats why it was different for me, it has helped me be balanced well before I started Belly dance training really but like I said I had a teacher that went into all kinds of balance training I even trained on how to make my body lighter even to this day most people can not hear me before I am up on them, so I think it matters what kind of training you get. I understand what you are saying yet this way of training does not apply to all forms of martial arts..."You can be as light as a feather yet no one will move you " :D
 
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Taslin

New member
Aziyade, i seriously wish i lived in your area and that you could be my regular teacher. I grately appreciate your response and once again i had to wip out my notebook for the dvd references and suggestions. A heartfelt thanks! Just so i now exaclty what you are talking about can you go into more detail on the "modern style parallel plies", i want to make sure i know what move you mean and im not sure i do.

I have taken a ballet for belly dancers workshop, and did get a few of the suggestions mentioned here, but i didnt want to hog the workshop w/ my particular needs so i didnt get the detailed responses-like i did here. Once again Aziyade thanks, it is strength, balance, core -issues, and my ankle strength that i need to work on. Yes this is alot to work on, but now i have identified the many things holding me back.

My knees arent hurting me if and when i have the correct posture, its the wobbly-balance issues that can aggravate them. So i think my knees will okay IF i can improve in all these area.

I have not done squats-they do kill my knees. I cant do them properly. It isnt worth the danger to try, when i know that the injury i will cause will not help anything, so i was kind of dis-heartened when that was Rachel's suggestion.

Plus, as mention by level changes i did not just mean "going" down, i need to be able to come up as addressed here..I took a private w/ one of my instructors who was a pre-pro ballerina. She had me walking in relevet <sp? on my toes-just walking in the correct posture on my toes and she gave me some ballet exercises but i wasnt sure how theyd apply to level changes, i have a better idea now. She let me know that i need to strengthen my ankles, they are not injured, just not at all strong, and she was suprised when i went up on my toes that i didnt have more range.

Ive got a long way to go, but i think its doable :0)
 
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MissVega

New member
I have no knee issues or pain, but I also have pretty strong legs. All I can recommend is horse back riding as I have been doing that since I was a child. My only guess is that was what provided me with the strength and balance needed in dance.

Riding lessons maybe:D
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Aziyade, i seriously wish i lived in your area and that you could be my regular teacher. I grately appreciate your response and once again i had to wip out my notebook for the dvd references and suggestions. A heartfelt thanks!

Aw! You're very welcome!! :)

Just so i now exaclty what you are talking about can you go into more detail on the "modern style parallel plies", i want to make sure i know what move you mean and im not sure i do.

This is basically it:

Modern Dance Warm-Ups: Parallel Plié | eHow.com

But you can also take these all the way to a fully bent knee. Grand Plie in parallel. Keep the upper body straight and perpendicular to the floor. Don't let the upper body lean forward and don't let the hips tip back.


Although now that I think about it, you could benefit from also doing these in a very easy wide 2nd position of the feet -- which she does on the dvd I mentioned. Don't get crazy with the turnout. You don't need it.

Another great ballet exercise is to take any plie EXTREMELY slowly -- like so slow that you think you're going to be totally bored. Like take 16 counts to go down and 16 to come back up. It's an AMAZINGLY exhausting exercise and great for those muscles.


My knees arent hurting me if and when i have the correct posture, its the wobbly-balance issues that can aggravate them. So i think my knees will okay IF i can improve in all these area.

Have you ever heard of a "wobble board" ? I've only ever used them for rehab after an injury, but I think they're starting to be used in fitness classes. You might google around and see how other people are using them for balance exercises.

One of the easiest (and goofiest) ways to develop balance is to do it -- balance on one foot. Balance on a small surface. Walk on a low wall. Balance on the ball of one foot. This is more fun to do if you have kids to play with, but that kind of activity really does help you develop the strength and body awareness to help with balance.

Another ballet exercise is to hold onto the back of a chair (for safety, not for a bicep workout!) pick up your left foot, and slowly rise to the ball of the right foot and come down. "Eleve" or sometimes people call it releve, if it's preceded by a knee bend. (be sure to switch feet!) Speed is not important. Focusing on the muscles working is. This is a great exercise for your ankles.

Ive got a long way to go, but i think its doable :0)

Of course it is!:) It all just takes time. And just when you build up THAT strength, you'll find you need to focus on some other muscle for a DIFFERENT kind of strength for other movements! lol. Dance keeps us always "on our toes" metaphorically, and it keeps us healthy! Gotta love it!
 

mahsati_janan

New member
Aw! You're very welcome!! :)
Another great ballet exercise is to take any plie EXTREMELY slowly -- like so slow that you think you're going to be totally bored. Like take 16 counts to go down and 16 to come back up. It's an AMAZINGLY exhausting exercise and great for those muscles.

This is how I teach strength and positioning for level changes, as well. In a basic parallel position, we lower as far as is comfortable and then raise all the way up as far as it comfortable while maintaining upright posture in the chest and torso. I also have students do this with one foot slightly forward or back to help with the strength and balance to do level changes with the feet in other positions.

When you first start, it can be really helpful to have something to stabilize yourself with, so a wall, chair, railing, etc. can help with the upright posture. Once you feel like you have it, you can try it with your shoulders lightly touching a wall and see if you can go all the way down and back up without your shoulders losing contact. This really helps in finding those last areas of wobble for some students. Remember though - don't *lean* on the wall. It should just be a light, non-weight bearing touch.

Another thing that has helped some of my students is to think of it as one smooth movement: from up, to down, back to up. If they concentrate on it as a flow rather than as final positions, it helps them to remember not to ever relax the muscles completely during the movement. If you don't stay engaged, you will have to give yourself a little extra push to start from the down position which can cause wobbles.
 

goddessyasaman

New member
Ah, but then you dance fusion BD don't you. ;)


Glad I could help. I hope it hasn't been too frustrating for them.


:lol: only because I want to;) I started as just a Turkish dancer, then into Egyptian and so on so it does not matter;)
anytime I feel like it I can change to another style which I love to do, it makes it so fun :)
 
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astro_girl

New member
I would think doing the balance poses (actual dance movements) over and over again would be the best practice, supplemented by plies and some yoga (or pilates?) poses such as the tree pose. Some common standing balance poses are:

Yoga Poses - A Sequence of Standing Balance Yoga Poses

What I'm finding I'm having trouble with is not getting dizzy when spinning my veil(s). I've never been so dizzy in my life, to the point of getting nauseous. I'm wondering if I need to go see an opthalmologist and see what I can do (if anything) vision-wise to improve that. I've noticed a definite change over the past few years in the amt. of time I'm able to spin without getting completely dizzy and awkward...despite my best efforts to pick a spot on the wall and focus during each rotation.
 

Kashmir

New member
Squats, to me, are darn useless for my dance. I've asked three personal trainers about how to do these properly, and they've all agreed that I AM doing the movement correctly, but it has NEVER helped me with the kind of strength you're talking about.

What DID help me was plies. I know it seems like the same movement, but it's not. Doing modern dance style plies in parallel position helped me develop the kind of strength you're talking about -- but if you don't use it, you lose it, so to speak, so you kind of have to keep doing them or lose the strength benefits.
Actually when I did the safe part of my dance training we were advised to avoid squats - as deep squats can damage knees! Rather build up the quads - shallow plies - especially using a barre would help.

So does sitting on the floor with one leg out and press the knees into the floor so the heels lift and relax. You can engage teh different heads by pressing against one side of the foot or the other.

Personal trainer. :) If you show them the movements you want to do, and ask for exercises to help build strength for those movements, they can set you up with a pretty specific routine.
Yes, yes - but make sure the PT has decent training and experience. I met some the other day at a workshop with very skimpy training :(
 
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