Exotic Fusion(stripping and belly dance)
- Thread starter bdfusion
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I disagree with her as well, and i agree with the sexual vs. sensual thing
She said that she was "going back to the erotic side of the dance", which is insinuating that it was originally topless. Which is disrespectful to belly dance. however I wouldn't say anything like that, I would say the opposite actually.
This is a very difficult and debated question.
On the one hand, there is individual's freedom to do whatever she or he likes (as long it is legal, that is). Dance belongs to no one. Belly dance while juggling fishes? You have right to do that.
On the other hand, while you can do whatever you want, you must also take responsibility for your actions. In 19th century ballet dancers were associated with prostitution. Today, if a exotic dancer strips while wearing a tutu, no one would think " why, all ballet dancers must be strippers then!". In belly dance, we are not in that point yet. You have all right to combine exotic dance to belly dance, but you must also acknowledge that you are reinforcing that age-old image of bellydance as a dance of seduction.
However, I find you very sincere in your passion for both belly dance and exotic dance, and urge to combine the two, so here is what I would suggest:
Why don't you make a bellydance/exotic dance fusion routine which you perform, not in a strip club, but to other dancers. That tones down the seduction aspect, and maybe can broaden viewers horizon considering exotic dance.
On the one hand, there is individual's freedom to do whatever she or he likes (as long it is legal, that is). Dance belongs to no one. Belly dance while juggling fishes? You have right to do that.
On the other hand, while you can do whatever you want, you must also take responsibility for your actions. In 19th century ballet dancers were associated with prostitution. Today, if a exotic dancer strips while wearing a tutu, no one would think " why, all ballet dancers must be strippers then!". In belly dance, we are not in that point yet. You have all right to combine exotic dance to belly dance, but you must also acknowledge that you are reinforcing that age-old image of bellydance as a dance of seduction.
However, I find you very sincere in your passion for both belly dance and exotic dance, and urge to combine the two, so here is what I would suggest:
Why don't you make a bellydance/exotic dance fusion routine which you perform, not in a strip club, but to other dancers. That tones down the seduction aspect, and maybe can broaden viewers horizon considering exotic dance.
Greek Bonfire
Well-known member
I doubt it, especially when dancers are always trying to promote the opposite, it may be viewed as insulting for one, disrespect in another, and you just may find yourself being severely booed offstage. I would be extremely offended with this kind of fushion and would either walk out or get up and boo you out of the hafla/event whatever.
Some things you just can't fuse - ever.
Aniseteph
New member
I agree - for a belly dancer audience it could read as if you are completely clueless about all the issues that have been mentioned on this thread, you are too arrogant to care what your audience thinks, or that you think your fusion is going to be so awesomely artistic and visionary that the audience will be converted despite themselves.
I think the strip club audience would be an easier crowd.
I think the strip club audience would be an easier crowd.
Shanazel
Moderator
Belly dance presented in an exotic dance venue for an audience's prurient entertainment is as incongruous as stripping presented at a hafla for the enjoyment of the general public. The general consensus of belly dancers here is that never the twain shall meet, whatever the justification for fusing the two.
If you truly can't see the difference between a strip routine in nurse's uniform and a strip routine in a belly dance costume, then you haven't been around belly dance long enough to fuse it with anything. You have to know the rules before you start breaking them.
If you truly can't see the difference between a strip routine in nurse's uniform and a strip routine in a belly dance costume, then you haven't been around belly dance long enough to fuse it with anything. You have to know the rules before you start breaking them.
:think: Hm, when I suggested presenting this fusion to dancers, I thought of very small venue, where a) dancers present would know bdfusion personally and b) she could explain here vision about the matter before the show.
I should have pointed out that I did not mean big venue or hafla, I agree that there the reception could be cold or straight forward hostile (see for example Sadie/Kaya -scandal at Rakkasah 2006).
To sum up: to present bd/exotic dance fusion to a small, familiar audience where you can explain your motivations, I would say yes, go ahead. In a large dance venue or a strip club, I would say please,do not do it.
Maybe there will be a point where stripper in belly dance outfit is no more representative of all bellydancers than stripper in nurse outfit is representative of all nurses in general public's mind. We are not there, not yet. Until then, every dancer does not represent only herself, but whole belly dance community.
I should have pointed out that I did not mean big venue or hafla, I agree that there the reception could be cold or straight forward hostile (see for example Sadie/Kaya -scandal at Rakkasah 2006).
To sum up: to present bd/exotic dance fusion to a small, familiar audience where you can explain your motivations, I would say yes, go ahead. In a large dance venue or a strip club, I would say please,do not do it.
Maybe there will be a point where stripper in belly dance outfit is no more representative of all bellydancers than stripper in nurse outfit is representative of all nurses in general public's mind. We are not there, not yet. Until then, every dancer does not represent only herself, but whole belly dance community.
Greek Bonfire
Well-known member
Bringing strip fushion to the majority of bellydance events will be like bringing pork to a Muslim feast - it will never be swallowed.
Aniseteph
New member
Who is left in your small familiar audience? They will to listen to and take on board your motivations, aren't going to get wrong ideas about belly dance, and want to see a mix of belly dance and exotic dance? I'm seeing all sorts of Venn diagrams that don't intersect much.
Well, the amount of interested audience depends of what kind of people you know. Maybe bdfusions workmates would be interested to see such a fusion (I believe, if explained properly, they would not get wrong ideas about belly dance). There were also belly dancers who did not take offense about said Kaya&Sadie incident at Rakkasah (though, granted, they were at the minority).
Personally, I dislike stripping strongly. However, if one of my friends at bd class would like to make and present bd/exotic dance fusion at small setting, I might give it a chance- I would like to give her benefit of the doubt.
However, I should point out that I come from a rather small country, where bellydance is more often than not presented in a respectful manner. Stripper analogy exists here also, yes, but it is not overtly common. I have but once personally witnessed a live performance where I had been ashamed of how dance was presented. So I admit, I might be little naïve considering the topic.
walladah
New member
I think that Fotia-The Greek Bonfire got it!
Culturally, stripping does not fit to bellydance, just like "exotic" is a notion that has very different meaning in a westernised context in the Mediterranean (oh, yes, exotic dance is "sold" in strip clubs etc) and in a non-westernised contect.
F.ex. in Greek language, exoticos/exotiki (you know exotic is a Greek word) is for anything that is "from out of here, from the outside".
(e)Xotikos (men) - (e)xotikia (for women) -
(e)xotiko (for neutral gender) is the word used for elves and fairies... So, you might be an exotic dancer in a strip club, but you are a "xotiki omorfia" (exotic beauty) when you (belly)dance. As you may understand, stripping is not the main occupation of the elves and fairies in the Greek forests, lakes, springs, beaches and caves...
One more hint: there are several fairy tales in Greece, talking about xotikes (elf women) dancing naked or half naked [usually with veils] in secret places of natural beauty, where humans cannot really access without serious danger of getting beguiled by the elf dancers and of losing minds and even lives because of the beauty of the elves and their dance. However, this dance or even this "nakedness" is not stripping, and it is formally prohibited to the eyes of humans, esp. human men. Moreover, no-one would dare to think that this nakedness stems from any wish of the elves to be seen naked. It is in the nature of the elves and their dance to be like this and it is better to avoid to be near elfin places in the night just to avoid the danger of this beauty.
So, xotikes (elf women) or xotika (elf creatures) [also called, neraides, e.g. elf women of the waters] are far beyond any idea of stripping linked to "exoticos".
In that sense, any strip or exotic dancer can use bellydance elements in her dance. I think that we cannot prevent people from doing what they want. What we, bellydancers, can do, is to work on the dance of the xotikes. You know, people who look for beauty will know the difference. We dance for them. We cannot make people looking for naked-bodies-sold-out appreciate something they are not looking for.
Culturally, stripping does not fit to bellydance, just like "exotic" is a notion that has very different meaning in a westernised context in the Mediterranean (oh, yes, exotic dance is "sold" in strip clubs etc) and in a non-westernised contect.
F.ex. in Greek language, exoticos/exotiki (you know exotic is a Greek word) is for anything that is "from out of here, from the outside".
(e)Xotikos (men) - (e)xotikia (for women) -
(e)xotiko (for neutral gender) is the word used for elves and fairies... So, you might be an exotic dancer in a strip club, but you are a "xotiki omorfia" (exotic beauty) when you (belly)dance. As you may understand, stripping is not the main occupation of the elves and fairies in the Greek forests, lakes, springs, beaches and caves...
One more hint: there are several fairy tales in Greece, talking about xotikes (elf women) dancing naked or half naked [usually with veils] in secret places of natural beauty, where humans cannot really access without serious danger of getting beguiled by the elf dancers and of losing minds and even lives because of the beauty of the elves and their dance. However, this dance or even this "nakedness" is not stripping, and it is formally prohibited to the eyes of humans, esp. human men. Moreover, no-one would dare to think that this nakedness stems from any wish of the elves to be seen naked. It is in the nature of the elves and their dance to be like this and it is better to avoid to be near elfin places in the night just to avoid the danger of this beauty.
So, xotikes (elf women) or xotika (elf creatures) [also called, neraides, e.g. elf women of the waters] are far beyond any idea of stripping linked to "exoticos".
In that sense, any strip or exotic dancer can use bellydance elements in her dance. I think that we cannot prevent people from doing what they want. What we, bellydancers, can do, is to work on the dance of the xotikes. You know, people who look for beauty will know the difference. We dance for them. We cannot make people looking for naked-bodies-sold-out appreciate something they are not looking for.
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Greek Bonfire
Well-known member
It's this type of thinking that keeps the stereotype that bellydancing IS stripping. Just look at the latest fiasco in Dallas. Nope, I will never support fushing stripping with bellydance. Not ever.
BellaBohemian
New member
bdfusion, the way you talk has me wondering just how long you have been a stripper? You have made it pretty clear that you haven't really been to a formal belly dance class, am I wrong?
I personally know a few strippers, ones whom have been working in that field for a long time. Never have they been asked about what their dance inspiration or history is. I don't doubt that there are good guys who go into the clubs. But to be blunt, they really don't care too much about how many hours you spend practicing each style or why you choose to dance the way you do. Granted, they will enjoy someone who actually has heart and talent for sure! But that's true with everything.
If you want to throw in some rib cage lifts, hip circles or other little moves you learned from your DVDs into your act, no one is going to stop you. And there is nothing wrong with that. It becomes a problem when you mention belly dance because of the stereotypes. If you read other topics on these forums you will see people who struggled to just get their families to understand that they wanted to be belly dancers! There are posts of people talking about the horrible comments people have made to them just because they mentioned they are belly dancers! We don't take off clothes or try to arouse men, but still people view it that way. It's something WE have to deal with everyday.
You being a stripper and saying you belly dance just adds to the stereotype thus making it harder for the girls who want to take this art form seriously.
However, you seem to speak highly of belly dance. Why not take a formal class, see if you actually like it and would like to do belly dance apart from stripping? Or even, why not try to take other dance classes and become a professional dancer (outside of the clubs that is)?
I'm on board with everyone else, keep the two separate.
I personally know a few strippers, ones whom have been working in that field for a long time. Never have they been asked about what their dance inspiration or history is. I don't doubt that there are good guys who go into the clubs. But to be blunt, they really don't care too much about how many hours you spend practicing each style or why you choose to dance the way you do. Granted, they will enjoy someone who actually has heart and talent for sure! But that's true with everything.
If you want to throw in some rib cage lifts, hip circles or other little moves you learned from your DVDs into your act, no one is going to stop you. And there is nothing wrong with that. It becomes a problem when you mention belly dance because of the stereotypes. If you read other topics on these forums you will see people who struggled to just get their families to understand that they wanted to be belly dancers! There are posts of people talking about the horrible comments people have made to them just because they mentioned they are belly dancers! We don't take off clothes or try to arouse men, but still people view it that way. It's something WE have to deal with everyday.
You being a stripper and saying you belly dance just adds to the stereotype thus making it harder for the girls who want to take this art form seriously.
However, you seem to speak highly of belly dance. Why not take a formal class, see if you actually like it and would like to do belly dance apart from stripping? Or even, why not try to take other dance classes and become a professional dancer (outside of the clubs that is)?
I'm on board with everyone else, keep the two separate.
Farasha Hanem
New member
I wish I had more to add to this discussion, other than I support the majority of opinion that has already been expressed. Bellydance and stripping NEED to stay separate.
Shakti
New member
Many of my friends are guys, and I am lucky to be considered 'one of the guys' and I have been on occasion to strip clubs.(generally, bc they are open after the regular clubs close -I tell them that they are buying my drinks if I tag along haha)
I cannot see where doing the fusion would net you more money. There are different persona's the girls project, the "girls gone wild" the "couger", the "pole dancer" , ect. Unless you lived in an area with an arab speaking population I do not think 'naughty bellydance' would be what they would thrive on seeing at a strip club. The Burlesque scene has melded the two, but in a playful, kitchy way. Stripping as a form of entertainment involves going atleast mostly naked. Bellydancing in a thong or tossing a coin bra to the side of the stage would totally misrepresent bellydance and feed or atleast add to negative stereotypes. Just the same as outdated acts like a 'naughty nurse'. The nakedness is not what i find distateful about stripping, it is the clubs themselves, mostly backed by organized crime, for instance.No matter How "nice" the club, They are all seedy and kinda creepy.
I think art is personal expression.While a stripper is a person with feelings, there is so much 'self repression' in what they do, to be able to separate it from a job and natural healthy desire.
I cannot see where doing the fusion would net you more money. There are different persona's the girls project, the "girls gone wild" the "couger", the "pole dancer" , ect. Unless you lived in an area with an arab speaking population I do not think 'naughty bellydance' would be what they would thrive on seeing at a strip club. The Burlesque scene has melded the two, but in a playful, kitchy way. Stripping as a form of entertainment involves going atleast mostly naked. Bellydancing in a thong or tossing a coin bra to the side of the stage would totally misrepresent bellydance and feed or atleast add to negative stereotypes. Just the same as outdated acts like a 'naughty nurse'. The nakedness is not what i find distateful about stripping, it is the clubs themselves, mostly backed by organized crime, for instance.No matter How "nice" the club, They are all seedy and kinda creepy.
I think art is personal expression.While a stripper is a person with feelings, there is so much 'self repression' in what they do, to be able to separate it from a job and natural healthy desire.
DahliaRose
New member
While it sounds tempting to combine two great things into one fantastic thing, in this case I think you aren't going to get there. Belly dance is sensual, it's not seductive. It's the girl next door to the hot vixen.
That said, of course when you dance you will pull inspiration and emotion from various sources and one of those may be belly dance. But it would be inappropriate to dress in a belly dance costume and strip then try to call it authentic or even fusion. I think these are best left as separate as possible.
If you are looking for inspiration, Burlesque dance would be great or even naked tap dancing would be different but still not disrespectful to that art form.
That said, of course when you dance you will pull inspiration and emotion from various sources and one of those may be belly dance. But it would be inappropriate to dress in a belly dance costume and strip then try to call it authentic or even fusion. I think these are best left as separate as possible.
If you are looking for inspiration, Burlesque dance would be great or even naked tap dancing would be different but still not disrespectful to that art form.
Greek Bonfire
Well-known member
The old burlesque, before stripping, is not the problem - it's the STRIPPING.
Bellydance Oz
Member
Well, no, it's not the same thing.
Most Americans have seen a nurse and know what they're really like. Most Americans have never seen real belly dancing, and they have an incorrect notion that it's associated with stripping.
If you strip in a belly dance costume, every person in your audiences will consider their prejudices have been totally confirmed. That cannot be a good thing.
By all means use belly dance moves in your act, because those moves are part of what your body wants to do. But don't present yourself as a belly dancer in that environment, it would only be damaging to an art you respect.
Bellydance Oz
Member
I was curious about this because I've seen several burlesque fusion dancers defend it on the grounds that "it's not stripping". But when I look into it, I've yet to find any evidence that burlesque was that different in the olden days.
Burlesque may not be about stripping right down to the buff, but hasn't it always been about taking your clothes off?