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Thread: Kasimir Satler

  1. #21
    Senior Member Sirčne's Avatar
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    The performance felt like belly dance to me. He has beautifully articulated hip movements, and flowy serpentine movements. I enjoyed it. To Shanazel's "circus" comment I say that I suspect fire will become an accepted, though probably not widespread, BD prop. I've seen it used elsewhere and apparently there is enough interest for WDNY to have produced this:



    Palm flames aren't enough anymore

  2. #22
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
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    I hope belly dancers don't embrace poking flaming sticks into their mouths. Lots of dance styles feature hip articulations and flowing movements; that doesn't make them belly dance. Being a Am Oriental dancer who learned in the seventies I danced on half pointe and wore floaty chiffon skirts but those things didn't make me a ballerina.

    Very interesting fire video but she wasn't belly dancing, either. Goth fire dance, exotic fusion with fire, post-atomic age dance, fire undulations- any of those would be more appropriate than calling it belly dance. Actually I don't think she did call it belly dance but I didn't watch to the end of the video. Props are supposed to enhance the dance. Whenever anyone lights a fire on stage the fire becomes the star of the show; the dancer is relegated to being background noise.

    If people just add whatever prop bric-a-brac that suits them, adopt music never heard in the Middle East, and throw in a few yoga poses here and there they may end up with something quite thrilling and/or beautiful but they've moved out of the realm of belly dance. For their own sakes and for the sakes of those who hold to traditional notions of middle eastern dance they need to acknowledge this and come up with new names for their new dance forms.
    Last edited by Shanazel; 11-12-2013 at 12:28 AM.
    "Well, now that we have seen each other," said the unicorn " if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."

  3. #23
    Member Kartane's Avatar
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    Cool Even Belly Dancers Are Not Always Belly Dancing

    I think something that often gets lost is that not every performance - by even an excellent, trained Belly Dancer - is "Belly Dance".

    Where I live, we have an annual Halloween Hafla for which a theme is chosen "It Came From Outer Space", "Dark Carnivale", etc All the local dancers prep and costume and perform crazy, fun numbers. But those performances are NOT belly dance. They may use belly dance moves and it may be belly dancers doing them, but at that point, it's just a fun show - NOT a belly dance show.

    Even if moves and movement patterns are from the belly dance family -- the dances themselves are belly dance movement influenced theatrical stage shows, NOT Orientale dance performances. The music and costuming and story behind the dances is too far removed from the cultural context to be Belly Dance.

    And believe me, there are some seriously classically trained dancers that participate in these shows -- but they are not belly dancing or claiming to - just putting on a fun, goofy show.

    Truth in advertising is what we are after here. Even if someone is a great belly dancer, not EVERYTHING she or he does gets a belly dance label if it's too far removed musically and culturally from the roots of the dance.
    Last edited by Kartane; 11-19-2013 at 06:22 PM.

  4. #24
    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirčne View Post
    The performance felt like belly dance to me. He has beautifully articulated hip movements, and flowy serpentine movements. I enjoyed it. To Shanazel's "circus" comment I say that I suspect fire will become an accepted, though probably not widespread, BD prop.
    Because it is beautiful or enjoyable or uses hips it does not make it "belly dance". Belly dance needs not only to use hips but be still connected with its Middle Eastern roots - which includes aspects such as music and interpretation.

    Once fire becomes a normal part of a bellydance performance in Cairo or Beirut for a decade or so then people can start considering maybe it is "accepted". Until then - it's Western circus.
    Last edited by Kashmir; 11-20-2013 at 01:03 AM.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Sirčne's Avatar
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    An argument can be made that from the 2:00 mark onward the performance type changes because of the use of fire, but what about the first two minutes doesn't qualify as belly dance? His movements are right out of the belly dance lexicon and he's dancing to "Nihavent Oriental" (from Mediterraneo by Nicos). Take away the fire and I don't believe we would be debating whether it is or isn't belly dance.

  6. #26
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
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    I agree: the circus act begins with the fire.
    "Well, now that we have seen each other," said the unicorn " if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."

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