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Thread: Kasimir Satler

  1. #1
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    Smile Kasimir Satler

    I found the video ... I think this style of performance is very interesting.
    And convinced that it is very original.
    It's not pure classical, but very beautiful and fascinating.
    And it is very emotional and bright/
    Now in my list of Kasimir's favorite dancers male belly dance

    ??????? ?????? - ????????? ????? OFFICIAL VIDEO Kasimir male bally-dance - YouTube
    Last edited by LOLIFIR; 09-05-2011 at 02:34 PM.

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    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
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    He is an interesting fire performer - but I can't see any belly dance - "pure classical" or any other sort - at least in the first two minutes after which I gave up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmir View Post
    He is an interesting fire performer - but I can't see any belly dance - "pure classical" or any other sort - at least in the first two minutes after which I gave up.
    And what you are looking for only "classics"?? I think that this is free to use elements of "belly dance" ... That is something that most can be called "Oriental" ...
    What is more important - emotional and originality ... or dance like everyone else, as always??
    What's more important - the soul, or "belly"
    I liked the energy dance. I liked the originality and novelty, and lack of affectation and womanishness, so characteristic of many other men - "belly dance."

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    Member LilithNoor's Avatar
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    What's more important - the soul, or "belly"
    Well, given this is a bellydance forum...

    I quite like a bit of fire fusion, but this is not really my thing. Too much stage dramatics, and the way the video cuts and fades so frequently makes it impossible to judge any level of emotion or soul.

    I'm also not massively keen on people who praise their preferred dancer by insulting other dancers!

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    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOLIFIR View Post
    And what you are looking for only "classics"?? I think that this is free to use elements of "belly dance" ... That is something that most can be called "Oriental" ...
    What is more important - emotional and originality ... or dance like everyone else, as always??
    What's more important - the soul, or "belly"(
    No, I am looking for belly dance. Belly dance has a number of elements - movement vocabulary - there is little but not much in this clip; cultural links - there is none in this dance - neither the music nor the interpretation of the music.

    So what link is there to belly dance? Only that he calls himself a male belly dancer. Without that label I'd call the clip a fire performance.

    "Orientale" has two definitions - a broad one meaning any belly dance that is not folkloric or Tribal and a narrow one meaning belly dance to a specific classical style of Egyptian music. This is neither.

    If you want originality and self expression then why limit yourself to belly dance which can only do this within set parameters? Otherwise you are just dancing - nothing wrong with that. Just drop the "belly" label.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilithNoor View Post
    Well, given this is a bellydance forum...

    I quite like a bit of fire fusion, but this is not really my thing. Too much stage dramatics, and the way the video cuts and fades so frequently makes it impossible to judge any level of emotion or soul.!
    In my opinion, the "belly dance" is not only a "belly" but are participating and many other important parts of the body.
    Let's not forget that the name "belly dance" coined in Europe ... and it sounds like something rude and it makes little sense
    Quote Originally Posted by LilithNoor View Post
    I'm also not massively keen on people who praise their preferred dancer by insulting other dancers!
    Did I offend someone of the dancers in person??

    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmir View Post
    No, I am looking for belly dance. Belly dance has a number of elements - movement vocabulary - there is little but not much in this clip; cultural links - there is none in this dance - neither the music nor the interpretation of the music..
    In this video, I counted 5 or 6 different dances that are imposed on a music. It is easy to see, if not look for 2 minutes.
    Especially since it's not a dance but a few ...
    I watched this video more as a display of various dance and a dancer.
    Probably we were looking at ways
    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmir View Post
    So what link is there to belly dance? Only that he calls himself a male belly dancer. Without that label I'd call the clip a fire performance..
    And not only the performance of fire ... And the serpent performance ...
    And plastic and graceful movements of performance ...
    Do you think that it would be better if he was half dancing, vibrating belly with a sweet smile for Egyptian music?? I understand that it is familiar, but it is so, so much

    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmir View Post
    "Orientale" has two definitions - a broad one meaning any belly dance that is not folkloric or Tribal and a narrow one meaning belly dance to a specific classical style of Egyptian music. This is neither..
    I will not argue ... I think it's "fusion" ...
    I always thought that "Oriental" has a very wide meaning - from the coast of Morocco, to India and Iran, and from the sources of the Nile to the Caucasus Mountains.
    Once again, that in the mixed video 5 or 6 different dances.
    Maybe he is dancing and not a pure and virginal "Belly dance", but that's for sure, "Oriental".
    This is clearly not the French minuet
    Quote Originally Posted by Kashmir View Post
    If you want originality and self expression then why limit yourself to belly dance which can only do this within set parameters? Otherwise you are just dancing - nothing wrong with that. Just drop the "belly" label.
    Excuse me, do you really think that I - this is the Casimir, who dances in the video??
    Maybe I do not understand you correctly ...
    As the saying goes "everyone has his opinion" ...
    I just showed you the new video that impressed me (as a woman and as a dancer).
    You immediately began to look for flaws in its video, which I dared to put here ..
    But it's similar to when the doctor sees in every person in the first place a potential patient, and each kitten - the experimental animal.

  7. #7
    Moderator Darshiva's Avatar
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    LOLIFIR, Kashmir has the honour of being a very experienced (approx 20 years) and very highly respected bellydancer - very well travelled and educated in this dance. Her opinion does not come lightly.

    You are being very condescending for no apparent reason. Perhaps you are the Kasimir in the video and were hoping for a better response? If so, it would be in your best interests to upload or link to a less edited video, one that shows the skills you speak of to people who don't know what they can't see in the video you linked to because it's not there. It has been edited out.

    We love and adore each and every one of the male bellydancers on this forum. They are cherished regardless of ability or style because men are such a rarity in this dance style. Any criticism of this performer comes from the fact that if there is any bellydance in this video, it has been edited out in the making of the video. Simply put, it's a nice enough medley, but it does not show Kasimir's bellydancing skills in the best light. To me (with my mere 8 years of bellydance as opposed to Kashmir's 20ish) it comes across as a trick & prop showcase. A very skilled one, but I don't see the bellydance either.

    Please note that bellydance is as much about the music as it is about the moves - it shares a movement vocabulary with: ballroom, latin, ballet, jazz, hula, african, modern, hip hop, the list goes on. Just because something has certain moves from the bellydance vocabulary doesn't make it bellydance. Just because the costume fits or the props are the same does not make it bellydance. Simply speaking, we need more information to see the dancer the way you do. So, could you please link to a video that shows us what you see in it?
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  8. #8
    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
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    I'm going to assume you are just new to belly dance and not a troll and answer some of your points.
    Quote Originally Posted by LOLIFIR View Post
    No, I am looking for belly dance. Belly dance has a number of elements - movement vocabulary - there is little but not much in this clip; cultural links - there is none in this dance - neither the music nor the interpretation of the music..
    In this video, I counted 5 or 6 different dances that are imposed on a music. It is easy to see, if not look for 2 minutes.
    Are you trying to say you can see 5 or 6 movements that are part of the belly dance vocabulary? Over 6 minutes? Apart from belly dance not being just a bunch of moves - if you can only spot one here and one there (assuming they are ) it doesn't make the performance belly dance. Without context, a shimmy might be South American, a hip circle part of hula. a hip lift jazz.
    Quote Originally Posted by LOLIFIR View Post
    And not only the performance of fire ... And the serpent performance ...
    And plastic and graceful movements of performance ...
    Do you think that it would be better if he was half dancing, vibrating belly with a sweet smile for Egyptian music?? I understand that it is familiar, but it is so, so much
    Neither fire nor snakes are actually part of belly dance. Most dance should be graceful - ballet is graceful, Bharatanatyam is graceful, even Ceroc is graceful. None are belly dance.

    If you think belly dance is " half dancing, vibrating belly with a sweet smile for Egyptian music" - then you have a lot to learn - even just about Egyptian belly dance (and there are lots of other valid styles of belly dance). Vibrating bellies is a tiny part of belly dance and most often seen the US not Egypt. In fact, you tone suggests you don't actually know - or like - belly dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLIFIR View Post
    I will not argue ... I think it's "fusion" ...
    I always thought that "Oriental" has a very wide meaning - from the coast of Morocco, to India and Iran, and from the sources of the Nile to the Caucasus Mountains.
    Once again, that in the mixed video 5 or 6 different dances.
    Maybe he is dancing and not a pure and virginal "Belly dance", but that's for sure, "Oriental".
    Actually , "fusion" menas there has to be at least two styles of dance (or dance and music). For it to be fusion - there has to be recognizible belly dance elements.

    The word "Orientale" when used in belly dance has a specific meaning - it does not mean " from the coast of Morocco, to India and Iran, and from the sources of the Nile to the Caucasus Mountains". It is short hand for danse orientale - which is a French translation of the Arabic raqs sharqi - nothing more.

    If you call your dance "Oriental" you don't have free rein to do anything vaguely related from from the coast of Morocco, to India and Iran, and from the sources of the Nile to the Caucasus Mountains - you are doing an Egyptian style dance; usually to Egyptian music with an Arabic interpretation. No fire. No snakes. Lots of hips, some footwork, arms that frame - possibly some Arabic gestures. All of it tied to the music. A deaf person watching a good belly dancer should be able to hear the music.

  9. #9
    Premium Member Aniseteph's Avatar
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    To be fair the clip is labelled bally dance. <ducks and covers>

    Seriously - I saw some moves that looked tribal fusion-y, but as has been pointed out, with that music over the top it's just so much (skillful) movement vocabulary.

    Snakes and fire, bare bellies, slave boys, low slung skirts and turbans do not make something belly dance; they are just so much showbiz schtick to persuade people they are seeing something exotically middle eastern, or even belly dance. It ain't necessarily so.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLIFIR
    I always thought that "Oriental" has a very wide meaning - from the coast of Morocco, to India and Iran, and from the sources of the Nile to the Caucasus Mountains
    No. Dictionary-wise it means Eastern, which is pretty useless on a forum like this when we are on different sides of the planet. In general non-BD usage, hereabouts it would suggest countries like China and Japan to me. Lumping together a huge sweep of countries from Morrocco to India is... well, dictionary-definition of Orientalist really, and not a good thing.

    IMO Kashmir is spot on with her definition of oriental in the BD usage - it's much more specific.

  10. #10
    Member Afrit's Avatar
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    I am a bally dancer. I once took a Zumba class - and that is very like bally dance.

    I am a bally dancer I have a bally dance DVD that I watched once.

    I am a bally dancer - I have a skirt, fire and a snake. So now I am a professional bally dancer.

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