On big workshops and following the bouncing butt.

Aniseteph

New member
Dontchajust HATE it when you are in a workshop and you are choreographically challenged but they are teaching choreo anyway, AND it's follow-the-bouncing-butt but you can't see the butt?

I guess I am not typical. I can follow most of it these days, but I can't remember more than a few phrases in the short term. So sooner or later I will be following all the way. Now if I am following the teacher I paid for this is still valuable IMO, because I think monkey see monkey do (OK, maybe monkey makes a stab at) actually works for me. I won't have the choreo down, but I will be getting the vibe.

However... 3 rows back all you can do if you can't lock the choreo in your head straight away is follow the crowd. I am not a happy bunny with this. And, having been p'd off to the extent of sitting out part of 2 out of 3 workshops this w'end because of this, I can vouch for the fact that even if you pick up the gist of the choreo from them, you are not going to pick up vibe of teacher from your fellow attendees. Because they are not doing it the same. (see, I did learn something sitting out! ;)).

I've always avoided "learn a choreo" workshops, and have gone for Egyptain/ME teachers specifically for the vibe. I can understand using choreographies to teach, but is this really what people want? Bash through a choreography in 2.5 hours and never mind the style you are supposed to be learning? If you want to learn about XX style wouldn't it be better to focus on a few moves, maybe just a section of the choreography, and some compare and contrast about what makes it XX rather than YY? Should I just start assuming that Star Egyptian Teacher teaching "XX" means "teaching their take on XX, choreographed".

Is this what the market wants? What do people do with what they have learnt from this type of class? I'm really interested.
 

Darshiva

Moderator
I usually take front & centre for that reason. I am also quite short, so there's no way I can see a few rows back.

Most good workshop teachers will rotate the room during a large workshop to solve this problem so at least everyone has access to some of the choreo and everyone is on the same page with trying to remember.

That's actually one reason I wrote off the Fariday Fahmy workshops in Perth next year*. By the time I found out about it, the front 4 rows had sold out, the next six back were nearly sold out & I could choose from only the back rows. Now that might be a great way of making money out of a popular dancer's workshops, but it definitely put me off attending a workshop I would otherwise have sold body parts to attend.

*Edit: They're actually in November this year, which shows you how much attention I paid to them once I realised I had no hope of getting the content I wanted out of them.
 
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Shanazel

Moderator
I hate learning choreographed pieces. If I wanted to learn choreographed pieces I'd buy a dvd I could watch until my butt and the one that bounces begin to mesh. In a workshop I want technique, I want showmanship, I want musicality, and I want to see what the heck is going on up in front.

We are trying to work out details to get Salome to Wyoming. Hoped for November but the studio is not available on weekends that month. Maybe spring if Salome can fit it in (hope, hope, hope). One of the things she plans is a course in arms and upper body movements. Now that is something everyone can incorporate into their own improvisational dances or choreographies.
 

jenc

New member
Dontchajust HATE it when you are in a workshop and you are choreographically challenged but they are teaching choreo anyway, AND it's follow-the-bouncing-butt but you can't see the butt?

I guess I am not typical. I can follow most of it these days, but I can't remember more than a few phrases in the short term. So sooner or later I will be following all the way. Now if I am following the teacher I paid for this is still valuable IMO, because I think monkey see monkey do (OK, maybe monkey makes a stab at) actually works for me. I won't have the choreo down, but I will be getting the vibe.

However... 3 rows back all you can do if you can't lock the choreo in your head straight away is follow the crowd. I am not a happy bunny with this. And, having been p'd off to the extent of sitting out part of 2 out of 3 workshops this w'end because of this, I can vouch for the fact that even if you pick up the gist of the choreo from them, you are not going to pick up vibe of teacher from your fellow attendees. Because they are not doing it the same. (see, I did learn something sitting out! ;)).

I've always avoided "learn a choreo" workshops, and have gone for Egyptain/ME teachers specifically for the vibe. I can understand using choreographies to teach, but is this really what people want? Bash through a choreography in 2.5 hours and never mind the style you are supposed to be learning? If you want to learn about XX style wouldn't it be better to focus on a few moves, maybe just a section of the choreography, and some compare and contrast about what makes it XX rather than YY? Should I just start assuming that Star Egyptian Teacher teaching "XX" means "teaching their take on XX, choreographed".

Is this what the market wants? What do people do with what they have learnt from this type of class? I'm really interested.

HiAnisteph - we should have had a meet as I was there all weekend on my own. I really enjoyed Tito's workshop. The fact that it was choreo gave me the opportunity to see a move repeatedly so that I could work out what made it Egyptian. BUTwe had to insist on going over the routines with half the class at a time - which actually improved things cos you can concentrate on different things when you are not doing it. He repeated and repeated, with not like this, like this,and I alsohave the dvd. I have to say that sometimes even with the moves broken down it is sometimes only the constant repetition to the end of the choreo that I get them.

the class before that, I am told startetd out with about 70 and had at least halved by the end

Khaled was also great -there was lots of getting us to be beetch. " You are dancer everyone think you hookah you got be beetch" It was a choreo and as it was the first of the weekend, I can't remember that but the experience did a lot for me.
 

Pleasant dancer

New member
I'm not a big fan of choreography workshops, especially when they are in HUGE festivals with 60/70 people. Even with rotation of the lines and perhaps big screens you miss a lot. I prefer ones where I can get a feeling for what is being taught, and take away my learning in chunks I can remember and do something with.

The most successful choreography workshops I've ever attended have been those where the written choreo has been provided so I can go over it when at home. I've never successfully written out my own notes for a complete choreo, something has to give, either dancing or watching, for this to be done effectively. I need repetition to learn. I have trouble remembering my own choreo's until I've taught them several times!

I didn't attend Shimmy. Couldn't afford it, and had my own dance work that weekend, which I couldn't afford to turn down. Shame, I would have like to watch the shows, competitions. Maybe next time.
 

jenc

New member
This weekend was the first time that I have ever enjoyed workshop choreo - and the first time that I have been to an Egyptian teacher. I found that going over moves repeatedly in the choreo helped me to study that Egyptian sense of timing. I had the time to say why is mine not like that. Of course I don't remember the choreos but I have go a few killer moves and an inspiration to work on style and timing
 

Lara

New member
Just come to Alaska, where the average workshop has about 30 people, lol!

Seriously, I would gladly pay extra to know there is a class size limit. If there is that much demand, maybe limit class sizes and offer more classes!

(& yes, I know this is not an easy thing for an organizer to do, but I think it's worth it!)
 

jenc

New member
When someone has flown in from Egypt, or the US the organiser has to make back air fair and accomodation as well as fee, so they would have to put on a lot more than double the amount of classes. You could double the fees but that would go up to £70 ($54 )a ticket - and you would get much less than half the participants who could afford that.
 

Lara

New member
When someone has flown in from Egypt, or the US the organiser has to make back air fair and accomodation as well as fee, so they would have to put on a lot more than double the amount of classes. You could double the fees but that would go up to £70 ($54 )a ticket - and you would get much less than half the participants who could afford that.

I think it depends on the actual costs, the market, the economy at the time- it's something to consider at the very least! We had to up our workshop prices last year, but we did it by cutting off the third day of the workshop and keeping the package price the same. Seriously, there are cases where *not* putting a limit might end up with an organizer loosing money in the long run. There are so many ways to work this, I think it is worth considering various options before dismissing the idea. We have to deal with steep airfare prices in Alaska just getting someone from the states, tho we don't have to deal with the hassle & expense of visas & such.

Case in point- we're bringing Sahra Saeeda up next weekend for a workshop. I desperately wanted to take the JtE seminar as well, so I found enough people willing to pay $500 each for the 3 day workshop to convince the board to put it on as an add on. We limited class size to 10 and dropped the price to $400 (plus the fee for the regular weekend workshop) and consider it well worth that price tag. Now, we didn't have added travel expense since she is already up here, so that helped as well. Just want to point out that there are several ways to make these things work, and different people have different price points, depending on what is on offer and what else is available via the competition.
 

Starmouth

New member
Aniseteph - were you at Shimmy in the City this weekend? Me too! If so, yep the popular workshops were extremely crowded. I was in Jillina's Oriental Style one on the Saturday and even though she was on stage couldn't really see her unless I was at the front. Plus there was a lot of spinning in this choreo so I got hit (and in turn, hit people) a lot.:lol:

I prefer technique workshops with a few combos as I feel you get more from them. Like you, I have problems remembering choreographies unless I go over and over them. Jillina's was particularly complicated too, very 'ballet' in feel and with a rhythm change to Saidi half way through.
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
I've spoken with belly dance teachers on "the circuit" who believe that what the masses want is to learn a choreography they can then take home and perform at all the haflas around town for the next year. I don't know if that's true or not - I know it's not true of me, but perhaps what I want is different from what "the masses" want. Anyway, I think that's why a lot of teachers fill their workshops with choreography.

I think choreography can be useful when learning a style I haven't studied before - or I've studied it, but don't know it well enough to create my own dances in that style yet. For example, I've been exposed to a little Tunisian, but I don't know it well enough to create a performance in the style, or to teach others. Therefore, it could be helpful to learn a choreography in Tunisian style as a tool to help me integrate the technique. That doesn't mean I'd want to perform that choreography - I'd use it as a tool for practicing and retaining what I learned. But I should also say that I don't "need" a choreography for that purpose - I can alternatively take written notes, buy the music, and drill the combinations at home.

I prefer to avoid workshops that teach choreographies in "generic sparkly costume" style. And there are a LOT of those out there. The problem is that a lot of those workshops in the U.S. are in a very Americanized style, and I'm trying to remove some of the Americanisms from my personal style. So I don't want to attend a workshop that tries to re-insert habits I'm trying to purge.

I especially hate the ones that are actually jazz dance with stray hip lifts thrown in - those are false advertising. There were a couple of those offered in my area that had advertised as being "Egyptian style" choreographies. One of them did jazz movement to an Egyptian song, the other didn't even bother to use Egyptian music.
 
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Lara

New member
When someone has flown in from Egypt, or the US the organiser has to make back air fair and accomodation as well as fee, so they would have to put on a lot more than double the amount of classes. You could double the fees but that would go up to £70 ($54 )a ticket - and you would get much less than half the participants who could afford that.

Re-read your post and want to clarify... I think you went the wrong way with your conversion- 70 pounds would be 108 dollars, yes? & I'd like to know- is that for a 2-3 hour workshop? a full 6-8 hour day? a weekend? Makes a difference knowing what the going rate in various areas is.
 

Darshiva

Moderator
I'm with you, Shira, on the content I want from workshops. I'd much rather get some new moves & combos and a greater understanding of a genre than another choreography I'm going to have to bludgeon into my own style so much so that it no longer resembles the original but I am still obliged to give credit.

Actually, I've heard a lot of the same from other workshop attendees - that they want the new moves/combos/technique/other wisdom from the teacher. I think too that there are a lot of people out there who do want the choreos, but that perhaps there is more room for the style/technique workshops than is currently being met by workshops.

I'm about 50/50 with content for my workshops - around half of them are choreo based and the rest are all technique. So far the choreo workshops are proving more popular, but I suspect that's because wings are an exciting 'it' prop at the moment and people are less into specialising in golden age style oriental improv. ;)
 

walladah

New member
When i started to attend

workshops regularly, several years ago, i was denying to attend a workshop with too many people. "Too many" might be a number over 30, or a number that is too much for the (small) room the workshop is taking place.

In 2009-2010 i decided to try again the populated-popular workshops, thinking that at that time i had already enough training to attend any type of choregraphy/technique workshop. Well, all my attempts were real failures. Of course both the teachers and the students (more or less) were following the advice mentioned above for big workshops-be-fruitful.

But after the workshop, i realised that i had not a real image of how to study afterwards on this, i had not really felt that i had any chance to have access to what the teacher was really teaching. It is not that the teacher was not teaching well. but due to the distance we had, i was unable to see a full sequence of movements as other students were (not in purpose, i think) dancing in front of me, or nearer the teacher.

After this, i promised myself that i would stick with my initial "workshop policy". I decided that in an art lesson, esp. in a lesson of oriental dance, working with too many people in the room turns the art lesson into a factory-outlet. Everybody can buy something at fair price, but at the end, the quality is so bad, that only if you were looking for low quality (just like a cheap T-shirt for your next picnic) you will be happy with it.

It might be a bit more expensive but i prefer to pay well a teacher who respects the fact that there are students who do not just want to say "i attended the workshop of X famous teacher" but who want to really learn something.

I think that if oriental dance world has turned into an industry and if dance education became factory-like (as it is in universities!), then it is up to us, "customers", to impose our standards and press with our stance that this is over.

PS/Concerning the fact that the market wants famous teachers to give an aura of authenticity to the workshop, choreographies for "ultimate sparkling costumes" and for ca/tri/folk-baret contexts only... well, i think that it is up to students to ask for something else!
 
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Aniseteph

New member
Actually, I've heard a lot of the same from other workshop attendees - that they want the new moves/combos/technique/other wisdom from the teacher.

Well there you go; to mix my metaphors I suspected I was ranting to the converted here.

Gah - why didn't I post an "anyone going to Shimmy in the City" thread? :doh: I'd have loved to have a meet up.

I went to Khaled's Mohammed Ali St - I expected the choreo format (and to get lost), but he repeats a lot and gives you background and "not like that, like this", and always does a demo, and in my experience will drop some of the choreo if people aren't getting it. I know what to expect, no gripes there.

Wael's Hagallah Fantasy I enjoyed despite choreo frustrations. It was Tito's Sha'abi on Sunday, the one I'd been really looking forward to, that drove me nuts. Where I was - no corrections, no like this not that, no chance of seeing what was going on and no chance of catching up if they rotated the rows or split the class, 'cos my view is still 95% someone else's butt. On the plus side, Famous Bellydance Megastar behind me can't follow a choreo she can't see either, which made me feel a lot less useless.:D

I don't expect personal feedback. I don't expect to get more than a couple of take home ideas/ lightbulb moments. But until I gave up the struggle and sat out and watched I was getting a big fat nothing and learning diddlysquat about sha'abi, which is what I'd signed up for, and feeling rather ripped off.

Perhaps everyone in the class at this level was expected to know it all already... well I'm no expert but watching people doing it all sharqi'd up - ummm, no, they don't. Why not try to teach it to them? Please? :pray:

I'm absolutely not dissing Tito - I'm sure in a small class he is pure awesomeness. Watching him was interesting and I did get something out of that (in a dance-scholarly way, of course...:naghty:).

It's the format: learn so&so's XX style choreography, with an emphasis on the choreography, rather than learn about XX style. It really puts me off future workshops.
 

Greek Bonfire

Well-known member
Unless you can see the instructor where he/she is mounted above or have enough room to see then it's almost not worth going to. I usually don't remember the choreo from just a workshop but I do like workshops that feature a lot of combinations. But even if I do take a choreo class, I don't go with the idea of remembering it but learning new moves and combinations. And the really big workshops I don't go to anymore, it's too much!
 

jenc

New member
I was there I gave up on Jillina we kept moving to new stuff before I had even seen the combo - let alone got it right
 

jenc

New member
Well there you go; to mix my metaphors I suspected I was ranting to the converted here.

It was Tito's Sha'abi on Sunday, the one I'd been really looking forward to, that drove me nuts. Where I was - no corrections, no like this not that, no chance of seeing what was going on and no chance of catching up if they rotated the rows or split the class, 'cos my view is still 95% someone else's butt. On the plus side, Famous Bellydance Megastar behind me can't follow a choreo she can't see either, which made me feel a lot less useless.:D

I don't expect personal feedback. I don't expect to get more than a couple of take home ideas/ lightbulb moments. But until I gave up the struggle and sat out and watched I was getting a big fat nothing and learning diddlysquat about sha'abi, which is what I'd signed up for, and feeling rather ripped off.

Perhaps everyone in the class at this level was expected to know it all already... well I'm no expert but watching people doing it all sharqi'd up - ummm, no, they don't. Why not try to teach it to them? Please? :pray:

I'm absolutely not dissing Tito - I'm sure in a small class he is pure awesomeness. Watching him was interesting and I did get something out of that (in a dance-scholarly way, of course...:naghty:).

It's the format: learn so&so's XX style choreography, with an emphasis on the choreography, rather than learn about XX style. It really puts me off future workshops.

I loved it - but sometines had to stop and just watch. was also analysing every move as to what makes this different - (I found this easier to do in person than watching a dance on Youtube) Ibut a lot of people were just learning the choreo and didn't seem to take the style on board.

I also have the dvd - which Tito GAVE me! So I will be studying that. i think it was valuable to go over a whole choreo in terms of what makes that style, or his style in particular.

Mind you this is because I adore his style and that is exactly how I want to dance. I just couldn't get my head round Jillina's workshop because I will never dance like that in a million years and don't aspire to.
 

jenc

New member
Re-read your post and want to clarify... I think you went the wrong way with your conversion- 70 pounds would be 108 dollars, yes? & I'd like to know- is that for a 2-3 hour workshop? a full 6-8 hour day? a weekend? Makes a difference knowing what the going rate in various areas is.
Ok the price was for a 2.5 hour workshop. With a big star that is £35.
 

Lara

New member
Ok the price was for a 2.5 hour workshop. With a big star that is £35.

Thanks for clarifying! So currently, in the UK a 2.5 hour workshop is running about 55 for a big star (yes, I just said that to get it into my barely awake brain!) That's about going rate for workshops here too.

Considering how many people (myself included) are willing to pay $75-$200 *per hour* for private lessons with traveling instructors (going rate here), I suspect you could find enough people interested in a middle ground of a small class for an intermediate price- just one more option to consider when hosting a workshop.

So, I am wondering... what is the maximum number of students *you* are comfortable with in a workshop class? what is the most you would pay for a class which you know will be limited in size?

BTW- I really hope you are all telling the workshop organizers about your problems too! It's hard to fix things and make a better workshop if one does not know there are problems in the first place!
 
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