400 Ghawazee beheaded?

[Kashmir]

Trusted sources like Chandler and van Nieuwkerk are apparently using their real names. Auriant, if I read it correctly, is a pseudonym. I'm wondering if the other suspect source, Buenaventura, may be a pseudonym. I am unaware of it as a surname.

Wendy Buenaventura is well known in the UK belly dance scene. She arose from the intersection of feminist spirituality and belly dance. Much of her material is wishtory at best. Understandable with the politics of the time - but much of this misinformation undrerpins some of the more suspect websites. She was Selwa Raja's mentor - known to most of us as "Suraya Hilal".

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Wendy Buenaventura is well known in the UK belly dance scene. She arose from the intersection of feminist spirituality and belly dance. Much of her material is wishtory at best. Understandable with the politics of the time - but much of this misinformation undrerpins some of the more suspect websites. She was Selwa Raja's mentor - known to most of us as "Suraya Hilal".

Spot on. With the info above. Nice lady, but I'd never use sepent for any source on anything. Nice collection of Orientalist paintings of dancers though.

The thing about Ghawazee being prostitutes.... Okay, here's the deal, all Egyptian people danced. The only thing is that folks like the Ghawazee got paid to do it at weddings etc. The type of prostitution in Egypt was not the street walker variety but the brothel variety. Therefore, because the dance is primarily a social phenominon, everyone knew how to do it, including women who eventually became prostitutes. So if you went to a brothel, like brothels everywhere, there was a deal of socializing, drinking, eating before and after you do the do. Sometimes guys would just hang out there withoit doing the do same way as guys hang out in the pub.... so as with any social gathering, especially with paying customers, there'd be music and dancing. Sometimes the musicians were hired, sometimes they were just some of the guys who knew how to play instruments and the "ladies" would fdance if asked to.

As for the Ghawazee, they were not prostitutes. Dancers and prostitutes were both taxed on their income. Dancers were not classified as prostitutes but performers. Their income came from entertaining. infact this was often used as a way of extorting more tax money out of them. The collector would threaten to list them as prostitutes if they didn't pay up.

UNPLEASANT ECONOMIC REALITIES:
There may times when a woman who was not a prostitutes was forced to make a tough decision if they fell on hard times. Therefore, prostitution was not something that was a part of the dance or dancers life persay, but something that they may resort to out of desperation/exploitation. The same as happened with ballerinas, opera singers,castrati, in Europe at the same time. Hell we could even say the same of actresses and singers today. We all know the fact that many an artist has had to pay their dues on the casting couch. Doesn't mean they're protitutes in the full sense of the word... but it would explain how some people get record deals wouldn't it!

 

[shiradotnet]

I can't imagine selling something as real history without signing my real name on it. If I'm fibbing about my name, what else could I be fibbing about?

Well, there's this character named Shira Dotnet who has written a bunch of stuff about belly dance history, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone else use "Dotnet" as a surname. She must be a shady character! :lol:

 

[Erik]

Well, there's this character named Shira Dotnet who has written a bunch of stuff about belly dance history, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone else use "Dotnet" as a surname. She must be a shady character! :lol:

Mmmmmmm.....it isn't exactly the same. Shira Dotnet is my shero (female hero). If not for her I would still be thinking that Fatima of Tombstone was a real bellydancer, and a real person, in 1880's Arizona. Yes, it was an ego-buster, but it had to be done. This shady character known as Shira Dotnet disillusioned me as gently as possible.

I've been frustrated with her a few times, but never angry. I'm from the South. If I were angry I would not be calling her Shira. I would be calling her Ms. Dotnet.

 

[shiradotnet]

I'm from the South. If I were angry I would not be calling her Shira. I would be calling her Ms. Dotnet.

And you'd probably also be blessing her heart....

 

[Duvet]

Auriant is the pseudonym of Alexandre Hadjivassiliou. I expect it helped sell his books to have an easier name for the French public. I still have no idea who he was. Wendy Buenaventura, however, is definately a real person.

Erik - I'm confused that your friend told you to look in Edward Lane regarding the Ghawazee. Lane was absolutely sure that all Ghawazee women were brought up to be prostitutes, and adds that not all of them were dancers. And I've since found out that all of Lane's comments on the Ghawazee were practically word for word taken from an 1830 edition of the traveller Burckhardt's comments, originally written in 1817.

Tarik - I so agree that dancer/singer need not mean prostitute, but they were very often tarred with the same reputation due to the idea that a woman who displayed her body (even if well covered) was inviting the sin of temptation. If a dancer was viewed as a prostitute, and treated like one, it would be understandable if behaviour followed like, especially if economic neccesity or physical coercion were present.

 

[Erik]

And you'd probably also be blessing her heart....

Indeed. Not so much of a Florida thing as an Alabama thing. You can bash somene up, down, left, right, and slantwise as long as you bless their heart at the end of it. Makes no sense to me either, but it's the lay of the land.

 

[Erik]

Erik - I'm confused that your friend told you to look in Edward Lane regarding the Ghawazee. Lane was absolutely sure that all Ghawazee women were brought up to be prostitutes, and adds that not all of them were dancers. And I've since found out that all of Lane's comments on the Ghawazee were practically word for word taken from an 1830 edition of the traveller Burckhardt's comments, originally written in 1817.

Tarik - I so agree that dancer/singer need not mean prostitute, but they were very often tarred with the same reputation due to the idea that a woman who displayed her body (even if well covered) was inviting the sin of temptation. If a dancer was viewed as a prostitute, and treated like one, it would be understandable if behaviour followed like, especially if economic neccesity or physical coercion were present.

What was Cairo like circa 1800? I imagine it was a hellhole by our standards, but the people who lived there did not know it. It was life as usual to them. Were Paris, London, and New York at this time much better?

It reminds me of the movie "Soylent Green." In an interview Charlton Heston responded to complaints that women's rights had been wiped out. He said that of course they would be. In a world where the only thing you have to sell is whatever physical service you can provide, men are going to be pulling rickshaws in the srtreets and women are going to be selling their ass.

Heston described his character as an innocent. He's miserable and overworked but he doesn't know it because it's all that he's ever known.

Tarik's comment reminds me of Tanya Lemani's book, Have Belly Will Travel. Her casting couch appointment with a comedy director was most comedic. In a more serious incident she avoided an oral rape by a director of more serious films. I believed her, and it might explain why her star rose no higher then it did in 1960's Hollywood. Much as it may gall me to agree with something Tarik said, economics is certainly a factor.

If you contact me by PM I will forward the discussion from last year.

 

[shiradotnet]

I liked Duvet's posted research into this topic so much that I asked him for permission to post it on my web site. He gave me permission, and you can find it here: Did Napoleon Really Behead 400 Ghawazee?

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Auriant is the pseudonym of Alexandre Hadjivassiliou. I expect it helped sell his books to have an easier name for the French public. I still have no idea who he was. Wendy Buenaventura, however, is definately a real person.

Erik - I'm confused that your friend told you to look in Edward Lane regarding the Ghawazee. Lane was absolutely sure that all Ghawazee women were brought up to be prostitutes, and adds that not all of them were dancers. And I've since found out that all of Lane's comments on the Ghawazee were practically word for word taken from an 1830 edition of the traveller Burckhardt's comments, originally written in 1817.

Interesting info. It would explain things though such as why he totally missed the point that most dancing was done socially and professional performers were the minority when it came to dance activity. Really makes me question his veracity even more knowing this.

Tarik - I so agree that dancer/singer need not mean prostitute, but they were very often tarred with the same reputation due to the idea that a woman who displayed her body (even if well covered) was inviting the sin of temptation. If a dancer was viewed as a prostitute, and treated like one, it would be understandable if behaviour followed like, especially if economic neccesity or physical coercion were present.

Well, lets put it this way, the people who lived in their communities knew the truth, the legal clerks knew the truth, but there are always going to be those who give the rest a bad name. It wasn't just that they were considered prostitutes, not everyone thought that, but everyone agreed that it was a shamefull profession and that women should be modest in public and not call attention to themselves. The fact that they were so poor they had to breach decorum in itself made them low lifes and unsuitable marriage partners for "respectable" families or anyone concerned with their social standing whether or not they actually sold their bodies.

Being that they were beyond the pale meant that they were extreemly vulnerable to exploitation and could expect little or no sympathy or defense. Its the whole, "well, she was asking for it syndrom. Blame the victim. Sad but true.