Looks like belly dance to me

[IsisAQ]

Hello guys. I'm new to belly and I love it but I'm curious. For such an empowering and liberating dance there is so much criticism within the community concerning style and technique, it seems like more than any other :shok: Even the most experienced performers get so many harshly negatives comments. Why do you think that is? :think:

 

[shiradotnet]

There is so much criticism within the community concerning style and technique, it seems like more than any other. Even the most experienced performers get so many harshly negatives comments. Why do you think that is?

It's very difficult to respond to such an ambiguous question. Is there a specific example of such criticism you would like to point to?

 

[IsisAQ]

Hello. Thanks for your reply.

Well I'm a beginner so I check out a lot of videos for reference. About half the time they read "That's not belly dance" (mostly with tribal but I've seen with others too like footwork) Or you'll find some great performances and comments attached that say the dancer was too sexy or stiff. I found that a bit confusing.

So what makes a dance a "belly dance"?

I hope to perform one day. I wouldn't want to offend anyone or any culture but at the same time I don't plan on being a cookie cutter dancer either.

 

[mahsati_janan]

Hello. Thanks for your reply.

Well I'm a beginner so I check out a lot of videos for reference. About half the time they read "That's not belly dance" (mostly with tribal but I've seen with others too like footwork) Or you'll find some great performances and comments attached that say the dancer was too sexy or stiff. I found that a bit confusing.

So what makes a dance a "belly dance"?

I hope to perform one day. I wouldn't want to offend anyone or any culture but at the same time I don't plan on being a cookie cutter dancer either.

What makes a dance belly dance is to have it grounded in the movements, music, and interpretation of that style. There are many great belly dancers who don't dance the same, but they are all great dancers. Like any art, you have to learn the variations that exist within the form and work with those first. A dancer has to learn their chosen style(s) well first so that they are presenting the dance that they intend.

You will find many different opinions and youtube comments are not a good measure. If you have an instructor, talk with her/him about the different styles and get recommendations for different dancers to watch.

 

[Yame]

I've seen those kinds of comments in all kinds of dance videos, not just belly dance. And in any field, when someone does a bad job or does something controversial, or tries to pass off their work as something that it is not, they get called out on it by their peers. Also in any field, regardless of whether or not someone is doing something that is clearly "bad," there is always disagreement over what's right and what's wrong, over style, etc. I don't think this happens in belly dance any more than it does everywhere else in life.

 

[Kashmir]

What makes belly dance belly dance?

Not something that can be answered in a few paragraphs. Personally I have been studying this for over 20 years. It is partly the movement vocabulary - which many beginners think it is all about - that is torso based not limb based, using isolations, shimmy and undulations. But that also applies to many other dance forms.

The main key is the music and how it is interpretted. For it to be straight belly dance the music needs to come from, or derive from with the same feel, some part of the Middle East. However, not all ME music is belly dance music by any stretch! A common fusion approach it to try and belly dance to Western music - with some dancers and some music this can work.

The interpretation? Well, that does depend on what type of belly dance you are doing. But generally anything the reeks of "ooh, this is so hard - look at me" or "I'm soo seeexy" misses the point. Someone came up with good rule of thumb - would someone from the Middle East recognize this as "belly dance"? If not, it isn't.

How do you learn? Basically by watching, and attending workshops of, lots of good Orientale dancers from Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey etc. And you need to look at many dancers - because there is individual variation - and long clips - not YouTube - full shows. You need to watch them over and over until the patterns are visible. Good teachers will help but you really need to do the work yourself.

 

[Sophia Maria]

For such an empowering and liberating dance there is so much criticism within the community concerning style and technique, it seems like more than any other :shok: Even the most experienced performers get so many harshly negatives comments. Why do you think that is? :think:

Hmmm...to me, it's hard to explain because all this criticism comes about as a mish-mash of different factors coming together. I agree with the other comments here in that criticism is probably just as prevalent in other art forms. However, I totally understand where you're coming from when you say that it happens in bellydance more than any other. For one, to state the obvious, once female or male sensuality or sexuality gets thrown in the mix, all hell breaks loose. People tend to get touchy about the idea in general, and sensitive to what is acceptable. Everybody has their personal taste in the limits here. I'm no prude, but I respond very negatively when I see bellydance sexualized. Yes, it's earthy, it's semi-clad, it's sensual, but--
First and foremost, I think bellydance is all about the music. Be the music.

Also, bellydance gets controversial because there are just so many styles influenced by different cultures. Respect the culture of the style you have chosen to represent.

And then some of it is plain opinion, because dance is about style, personality. For me, Sadie doesn't appeal to me, even though rationally I can see she is an excellent dancer and well-trained. Her dancing is too big and busy for me! But she's done her homework, and I respect that. Ultimately, the thing that does it for me, is: has a dancer truly immersed herself in the dance, does she respect it, has she done her homework, or did she just pop into a workshop because she thought it would be cool to dance sexy?

 

[IsisAQ]

Hello ladies.

I've seen those kinds of comments in all kinds of dance videos, not just belly dance. And in any field, when someone does a bad job or does something controversial, or tries to pass off their work as something that it is not, they get called out on it by their peers. Also in any field, regardless of whether or not someone is doing something that is clearly "bad," there is always disagreement over what's right and what's wrong, over style, etc. I don't think this happens in belly dance any more than it does everywhere else in life.

I'm sure you're right about universal criticism but it does seem a bit more strict with belly dance imo

The main key is the music and how it is interpretted. For it to be straight belly dance the music needs to come from, or derive from with the same feel, some part of the Middle East. However, not all ME music is belly dance music by any stretch! A common fusion approach it to try and belly dance to Western music - with some dancers and some music this can work.

The interpretation? Well, that does depend on what type of belly dance you are doing. But generally anything the reeks of "ooh, this is so hard - look at me" or "I'm soo seeexy" misses the point. Someone came up with good rule of thumb - would someone from the Middle East recognize this as "belly dance"? If not, it isn't.

So you can't belly dance to latin music if the choreography has strong Oriental movements? :think:

This is a very deep and personal dance form so I see why opinions would reflect the same feelings. Thank you for sharing

 

[Aniseteph]

Welcome to the forum IsisAQ!

For such an empowering and liberating dance there is so much criticism within the community concerning style and technique, it seems like more than any other

First I agree with Yame that it's much the same in any field, and not just dance - get up there and profess to be doing X and people who have more knowledge and study and experience might think no, that's Y. I think where it's at the level of discussing stylistic differences like how a Russian dancer might appropch something differently to a Brazilian to an Egyptian it's interesting debate. Just throwing stones is kinda infantile IMO.

Whether people comment/criticise or not depends on how strongly they feel I guess, and IMO belly dancers are likely to feel strongly because there is so much misunderstanding that is affecting their day to day belly dance life in some way. If part of your income is from belly dance how are you supposed to feel when Ms. Aerobics teacher sets up teaching what she think is belly dance that she learnt on her Zumba certification, and gets herself a costume and goes after your restaurant job. And maybe gets students and the job because no one knows or cares that THAT'S NOT BELLY DANCE? Or if your teacher's class, where you were loving learning some proper technique, and musical and cultural appreciation, folds because half her students go off to Ms Aerobics to skip about to Western pop and/or play dress up and not sweat that hard foreign stuff?

Or if you're a student who has to hide her hobby from friends because of the aggravation? Or if you lose performance opportunities and have people talk through your performance at a hafla because you're doing that boring traditional stuff to Middle Eastern weird-sounding music...? Or you get to to sit through belly dance shows full of all sorts of self-indulgent off-topicness (ooh, look at me moderating my language there ) because someone thinks it's all belly dance, kinda?

Add the "belly dance is for everyone, anyone can do it" and the "find your inner goddess" schtick, and you have a recipe for lots of people going out there with vague ideas of what they think belly dance is and sharing on stage or on YouTube. And then getting all wide-eyed "oh why do you want to hurt and be horrible to meeee and crush my expression, aren't we all bellysisters...?" when anyone comments critically. Nope. We're not sisters, you made that up.

And constructive criticism can be because people care enough to bother. YouTube is a cess pit full of maliciousness and ignorance, but IMO people here and on Bhuz are knowledgeable and very fair when it comes to criticism on dance. Ghastly costumes not so much, but some of those things are so wrong and fugly they are asking for it.

(sheesh, I'm supposed to be tidying. Spot the displacement activity :shok

 

[Kashmir]

So you can't belly dance to latin music if the choreography has strong Oriental movements? :think:

This is a very deep and personal dance form so I see why opinions would reflect the same feelings. Thank you for sharing

You can do it - but the result would not be belly dance. At best it could be a fusion - but that would take a talented and experienced belly dancer to pull off.

Now, if you put on latin music and placed a sword on the floor and jumped around it would that be Scotish sword dance? If you used latin music and wore a choli would that make it classical Indian dance? No! So why do you think you can do it with belly dance? Belly dance is a specific dance form (raqs sharqi/danse orientale) - a very wide dance genre that embraces many different styles - but it doesn't mean doing whatever you feel like to whatever music you happen to like. That has nothing to do with opinion - that is how it is.

 

[AutumnWard]

For such an empowering and liberating dance there is so much criticism within the community concerning style and technique, it seems like more than any other. Even the most experienced performers get so many harshly negatives comments. Why do you think that is?

I believe it’s simply a side effect of how rapidly our form is expanding and evolving. Not too long ago, Middle Eastern dance was purely Middle Eastern, and belonged to a small group of people with a shared culture. (This is an oversimplification – even 100 years ago, dance in the Middle East had already been heavily influenced by thousands of years of cross-cultural exchange. But not like today). Dance was traditionally handed down through families, and radical change was just not in the picture.

Today, dancers all over the world are bringing their own perspectives to the form. By simple virtue of their newness, new ideas in belly dance are still very much in the process of being defined and colonized. Leaders and lineages are not yet canonical, so leadership positions are available, but infrastructure is thin on the ground and mechanisms to gain leadership are not well-defined. New dance styles have relatively thin and permeable boundaries, and barriers to entry are relatively low. (Even in cultural styles, where “authenticity” sometimes trumps artistry, a dancer who has the simple qualification of being from the Middle East may claim legitimacy without having much training or investment.) The process of participating in this creation is something for which I believe we should be grateful: I think future generations will look back on us with envy. But, like any sorting out process, it’s also a source of competitiveness, uncertainty, and tremendous squabbling.

This is a very deep and personal dance form

So true! And when you love something, it can feel threatening if it seems to be moving in a direction that takes it away from you, or distressing if it’s treated in a way you find disrespectful. This can motivate positive behavior, like improving your own dancing, strengthening connections with members of your community, and reaching out with education; or it can elicit controlling or negative behavior – sniping, jealously, insecurity, self-importance, cliquism, “that’s not bellydance” / “ur doing it wrong” commentroversy…

 

[AutumnWard]

So you can't belly dance to latin music if the choreography has strong Oriental movements?

One particularly visible aspect of our sorting out process is our nonstandard nomenclature. We are a huge and diverse community, and in this cultural moment of rapid expansion, the way we use, understand, and define "belly dance" (and other terms, particularly those that relate to movement vocabulary) is not uniform. Personally I DON’T think this is a "problem" to be reconciled, just some information to appreciate when looking at people's perceptions. Whether or not the dance you describe is "belly dance" partly reflects who you ask.

Belly dance is a specific dance form (raqs sharqi/danse orientale) - a very wide dance genre that embraces many different styles -

Not to contradict you, but to address the original poster’s questions, belly dance, raqs sharqi and danse orientale are not universally used synonymously.

For many dancers "belly dance" is an umbrella term, comprising both traditional and non-traditional idioms and contexts. In this sense, belly dance includes Oriental dance--in the specifically cultural forms of raqs sharqi and oryantal tansi, as well as theatrical Oriental dance and Western nightclub styles--and also includes the tribal, fusion, fantasy, theatrical, conceptual, and artistic dances that have evolved from this lineage.

For others, raqs sharqi, oryantal tansi, and Oriental dance are explicitly not belly dance. To these dancers, "belly dance" may be an acceptable term for Westernized dance and simply be inaccurate for cultural dances, or it may be perceived as a flatly offensive Orientalist slur that shouldn't be used at all.

Then, there's the other end of the spectrum: those who believe "belly dance" only describes raqs sharqi, oryantal tansi, and maybe AmCab, and deem the rest as simply "other." Some tribal dancers agree, and prefer to describe "Tribal Dance" not as belly dance but as a separate distinct dance form. (What is and is not "tribal" is a whole other can of cowries I will not attempt to open today.)

IsisAQ, if you’re interested in pursuing the “what is/isn’t belly dance” question further, you’ll certainly need to learn about contextual and stylistic differences, but picking up some more precise language to frame your critical thinking will be helpful too. I suggest you look for resources that help you understand what YOU mean by "belly dance, " while staying flexible enough in your thinking to appreciate ideas from those with different [har, har] "orientations. "

 

[Ariadne]

For many dancers "belly dance" is an umbrella term, comprising both traditional and non-traditional idioms and contexts. In this sense, belly dance includes Oriental dance--in the specifically cultural forms of raqs sharqi and oryantal tansi, as well as theatrical Oriental dance and Western nightclub styles--and also includes the tribal, fusion, fantasy, theatrical, conceptual, and artistic dances that have evolved from this lineage.

(Dans Oriental not oryantal tansi. http://www.bellydanceforums.net/dance-styles/7996-lebanese-vs-turkish-vs-cabaret.html#post106682)

It's a discussion we've had before but it never hurts to go over it again. I had no idea when I first started dancing that there was more then one style let alone that the dance community itself couldn't agree on the definition of "bellydance". My favorite answer on the subject is a chart by Nadira Jamal.

 

[SeeJaneDance]

I want to make a poster out of that chart...

I love that for all the depth she goes into, there's still a huge circle that's just "belly dance".

 

[onela]

I want to make a poster out of that chart...

I love that for all the depth she goes into, there's still a huge circle that's just "belly dance".

Quoted for truth!

 

[Kashmir]

For many dancers "belly dance" is an umbrella term, comprising both traditional and non-traditional idioms and contexts. In this sense, belly dance includes Oriental dance--in the specifically cultural forms of raqs sharqi and oryantal tansi, as well as theatrical Oriental dance and Western nightclub styles--and also includes the tribal, fusion, fantasy, theatrical, conceptual, and artistic dances that have evolved from this lineage.

The problem then is the term "belly dance" becomes almost meaningless. It effectively just becomes a "dance". It wouldn't be so bad if people started learning traditional belly dance then evolved it themselves. However, it seems many people never learn "traditional" belly dance -and they do it from teachers that have never learnt it. So we have all these people who have no idea what the source dance is then proclaiming they have a "right" to call their mismash "belly dance".

 

[Sophia Maria]

And when you love something, it can feel threatening if it seems to be moving in a direction that takes it away from you, or distressing if it’s treated in a way you find disrespectful. This can motivate positive behavior, like improving your own dancing, strengthening connections with members of your community, and reaching out with education; or it can elicit controlling or negative behavior – sniping, jealously, insecurity, self-importance, cliquism, “that’s not bellydance” / “ur doing it wrong” commentroversy…

Absolutely! this dance has become so personal for me, it's hard to explain to a non-dancer (of any genre) why things relating to it can make me so so happy or so so angry!

Also Ariadne, that chart really puts it all in perspective, thanks for sharing.

I don't know, I love debating this but at the same time it just gets me tired sometimes. I love to be able to distinguish all the different little styles and there will certainly be times when i will come out with "that's not bellydance"--primarily when a dancer is being disrespectful. But at the end of the day I love what most every woman and man has done with this dance, and I realize belly dance is vibrant and changing. Belly dance is too powerful to be defined and its beauty will outlive all the controversy, squabbling, or debate about it

 

[shiradotnet]

For many dancers "belly dance" is an umbrella term, comprising both traditional and non-traditional idioms and contexts. In this sense, belly dance includes Oriental dance--in the specifically cultural forms of raqs sharqi and oryantal tansi, as well as theatrical Oriental dance and Western nightclub styles--and also includes the tribal, fusion, fantasy, theatrical, conceptual, and artistic dances that have evolved from this lineage.

Just for curiosity's sake, if I wore a multi-tiered skirt, stamped my feet a lot, did a few floreos with my hands, included some soaring ballet-style leaps, and incorporated some hiphop popping and locking, all to industrial music, would that make it flamenco? After all, the use of stamping, floreos, and a multi-tiered skirt would make it "derived" from flamenco, correct?