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  1. #1
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
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    Default Gender Discrimination, what do you think ?

    For years, decades I have been supportive and active in some cases for the promotion of equal rights for all, mostly on the grounds of ethnicity and gender, but one thing eluded me, that whilst I campaigned for equality across the board, inequality was growing with my own gender.

    Myself as a male having experienced gender discrimination many times I am now kind of sensitive to it and as a result see it happening in many places let alone the dance scene and in particular the Raks scene. I am not talking about female discrimination, but male discrimination and to think could there ever be such a thing, well, there is and it's getting worse.

    Yes, getting worse and that because as society tries to clean up it's act in the long history of discriminating against women, men are now starting to feel what women felt. Now I know there are many women who could be quite happy with this, but is that right, do two wrongs make a right ? Is it fair to discriminate against the other gender just because that gender being no fault of many of the individuals of that gender has as a rule discriminated against their sex?

    Now myself, I have always supported equal rights for all, that being race, religion ability and gender, but now as a male in the twenty first century, I am beginning to detect the pendulum has swung too far and instead of equality, what we have is inequality again, but inequality towards males in many areas of life as this excerpt from a male equality website shows;

    Discrimination against Men

    The website the link came from, what they propose in their manifesto is not entirely what I agree with, but they are correct in much of their research and some of it I have actually experienced myself and continue to experience.

    Do two wrongs make a right, should one gender be dominant, what do you think ?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Sophia Maria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanjar View Post

    Now myself, I have always supported equal rights for all, that being race, religion ability and gender, but now as a male in the twenty first century, I am beginning to detect the pendulum has swung too far and instead of equality, what we have is inequality again, but inequality towards males in many areas of life as this excerpt from a male equality website shows;
    It's hard topic to discuss and I'm frequently afraid to bring it up because it often spirals into pointless bickering and finger-pointing. Personally, I am very similar to you in that I always argue for equality, however I often see signs of discrimination against men. To clarify, I am female, but obviously it disturbs me to see discrimination against any gender.

    I think a very important problem was not solved during the Women's Rights movement: putting women on a sort of pedestal. Women way back when were supposed to stick to their sphere and be beautiful, paler, daintier, and of a more delicate and complex emotional constitution. If you look at a lot of history, in particular literature and epics, women are used as a SYMBOL (Like Helen of Troy). They don't go around hefting weapons much and are instead idealized and used to justify wars and the like.

    Interesting sidenote: you ever notice that when group A wants to eliminate or marginalize group B, all group A has to do is claim that group B is going to violate group A's innocent women? It was done against African Americans in the US, also against many groups of immigrants...but this is besides the point, sorry, getting back on track...

    My point is we unfortunately haven't gotten away from that idealization as much as we should. Take circumcision for example. Say "female circumcision" and most if not all people in a room, male and female alike, cringe. But male circumcision, many (not all, granted) will really not get as much consideration. But its a pointless and pain-inflicting procedure on both sexes! Male and female should be considered equally.

    But discrimination, against men or women, is perpetrated by anyone. That point I will argue ad infinitum because many times people dont acknowledge it. Society dictates what is and isnt acceptable. When women started wearing pants, I'm sure that not only men disapproved, but her female friends whispered behind her back and thought it inappropriate. When men do what they want without worrying about gender roles or discrimination, same thing. Take a man bellydancing for example--society stereotypically sees a bellydancer as female...too many times when I watch a male dancer on youtube there are many men leaving nasty comments about him.

    Discrimination can come from anywhere....It's equal opportunity!

  3. #3
    Member mahsati_janan's Avatar
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    There is still a significant gap in the experience of women and men in the United States. When looking at the data available, women still make far less money, work in positions with less prestige, and face discrimination on both economic and social fronts.

    I am for equality, but not for a backlash from either side. Until we reach actual equality, we are in no danger of switching into a matriarchy. The patriarchal social model is still the default in the US. We should be aiming for gender neutrality that respects all people equally, but we have quite a ways to go to get there.

    There are items where men are at a disadvantage in some cases, primarily involving topics like child custody that were initially assigned to people gendered as female by our society. However, while women remain less than equal in practice, our theory of equal rights for both genders will not have been realized even if issues like child custody have been addressed.

    Part of my day job is to work with large scale population data, including educational attainment, socioeconomic data, and demographics. The data does not currently show a female/woman-led or centered society.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Sophia Maria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahsati_janan View Post
    I am for equality, but not for a backlash from either side. Until we reach actual equality, we are in no danger of switching into a matriarchy. The patriarchal social model is still the default in the US. We should be aiming for gender neutrality that respects all people equally, but we have quite a ways to go to get there.
    I agree completely. I think that feminism and discrimination against women have a long way to go until the issues are resolved--it's just that it's not often recognized as a serious issue that women discriminate against men too, if in a less institutionalized way. People, whatever gender they are, need to start respecting each other.

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    Moderator Zorba's Avatar
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    In the FWIW department - one of the main obstacles of "Men's Liberation" certainly is NOT (most) women - its other MEN. I could write a huge rant on the subject, but I'll spare everyone the pain. Those interested can see my gender rant on my website which covers a small subset of the subject.

    Zorba's Gender Rant

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    V.I.P. Greek Bonfire's Avatar
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    There is never any excuse for discrimination unless an individual is doing something harmful to others. Otherwise, it is a crime in itself. By the way, whoever decided these "rules" I'd like to see their credentials myself!

  7. #7
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
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    MJ stated my own opinion beautifully; no reason for me to elaborate.
    "Well, now that we have seen each other," said the unicorn " if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."

  8. #8
    Senior Member Duvet's Avatar
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    Early feminism did have the ideal that both women and men needed freeing from the gender biases that existed in society. IMO discrimination against men is a hang-over from the still underlying idea that women are weak, passive or emotionally unstable, and so need extra help, while men are the dominators who can sort things out to suit their own best interests. This just perpetuates discrimination towards both genders.
    The battle against things like abuse, crime, health, economic problems, should be about the situations, regardless of the gender involved. Domestic abuse is domestic abuse: cancer is cancer regardless of who it is attacking. The trouble is that when a man presents himself as needing help, the support system is rarely there, even if the issue is recognized, and thatís because it is assumed that women are always the victims, and that the men are either the problem, or can deal with things for themselves. A man in the system is often viewed as defective or deviant in some way.
    If I ever bring up discrimination against men, it tends to be dismissed without thought, treated as a joke, or becomes a challenge to show how much more discriminated against someone else has been - and so what have you got to complain about? The fear is that it might appear misogynistic or self-pitying.
    Iíve experienced gender discrimination against men at my work (dress code and job description) and my leisure (dancing and theatre). If the genders had been reversed in those situations, it would not have occured.
    Itís a shame that the linked website goes a bit extreme, as it distracts from the more valid points. Gender discrimination isnít the same as stereotypes or statistical probabilities, although they do influence it. The situation is very far from the idea that women are in charge and are oppressing men.

  9. #9
    Junior Member Habibi L'amour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvet View Post
    Domestic abuse is domestic abuse: cancer is cancer regardless of who it is attacking. The trouble is that when a man presents himself as needing help, the support system is rarely there, even if the issue is recognized, and thatís because it is assumed that women are always the victims, and that the men are either the problem, or can deal with things for themselves.
    I hate when that happens too! That's offensive to both sexes because it implies that women are weak (I know a few women who are just as physically strong as a lot of men) and that men are monsters (I know quite a few really sweet men too). Neither gender should be dominant, that just creates/sustains more problems in society.....if I want equality then I know that I have no right to discriminate against men in traditionally female fields such as belly dancing.

  10. #10
    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
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    In theory there should be no discrimination - but it isn't helped by ill-informed comments such as the prostate screening thing which is believed to be a bad idea by those in the know - something like for every life saved 50 men would undergo unnecessary surgery (prostate cancer is very common - and very slow - most men die of something else). Of these a third will suffer urinary or rectal incontinance and a third permanent sexual disfunction.

    Ditto circumcision - does the author really think male and female circumcision are of equal impact? One is painful for a short time then of no real impact - apart from slightly reducing STDs (including AIDS) for the man and his partners. Many women die as menstrual blood is trapped and becomes infected; they need surgery before giving birth - and in most cases are sewn up tight afterwards.

    Much of the rest is similiarly ill thought out or misinformed - which is a pity because the issue is important.

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