Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 81
  1. #21
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Rocky Mountains USA
    Posts
    15,416
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    Yea, don't get me started on dress codes and stupid male clothing...
    Zorba, honey, you have my sincere and whole-hearted sympathy in your stand against dress codes and stupid male clothing.

    Upon retirement, I consigned my entire female legal assistant disguise to the second shops: the high-heeled modern version of footbinding, the dignified strait jackets and conservative dresses required for trial and other legal occasions. I refused to stoop to panyhose under any form of duress and substituted opaque tights when required to exhibit my legs above those damned infernal heels.

    At least no one looks at me amiss in the real world if I stick to jeans, clogs, and cordoroy shirts now.
    "Well, now that we have seen each other," said the unicorn " if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."

  2. #22
    Moderator Amulya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    7,069
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I remember years ago there was someone on Bhuz who complained he wasn't allowed in belly dance classes because he was a guy. Wherever he tried to get into classes he was denied as those classes were all 'females only'.

    I don't know how something like that can even be allowed nowadays. But it seems that women get away with female only clubs/events/etc.

    I think there is a lot to catch up for men, it's as if things have been changing for women, but the men have been left out. Zorba's statement about clothes for example is so true!

    But there are other things as well, it's still not considered ok for a man to show emotions. Or lots worse, where male rape victims don't dare to report. I could make a whole list here, but I think many things have already been mentioned.

  3. #23
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    South West England
    Posts
    1,915
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I remember years ago there was someone on Bhuz who complained he wasn't allowed in belly dance classes because he was a guy. Wherever he tried to get into classes he was denied as those classes were all 'females only'.


    Alas I have experienced that myself when I first started, of the known classes in my area, no can do, the class being female didn't want a male present was the usual excuse, in other cases the class tutors never even bothered to reply to my persistent communication. But the biggest outrage was when I approached the Arts council and they unable to help even when I mentioned the sex discrimination act, which they tritely told me does not apply to leisure activities. Yet many male dominated activities when a female wishes to join in bend over backwards to welcome, as they believe the sex discrimination act could be cited against them. How uneducated we actually are, what passes for laws in my country are very misunderstood indicating we are far from a fair country.

    Now all my life I have supported equal opportunities for all no matter what a persons gender, race of ability is, they want to give something a go, I will support them and fend off the naysayers, but as I was supporting many women's right issues, I actually found those that I supported discriminated against males, via myself in my desire to learn belly dance, it sure made me think about my values, but it occurred maybe those that have their private clubs were no male usually dares to venture don't know how hard males are being denied, for as society moves forward and more and more opportunities open up for the once oppressed, the ones that were once allowed to do stuff have been forgotten about.

    And then we have security guards where classes are held, only one place I never had to explain myself was the college I attended where the security personnel were people whom I knew when my dance class was held there. One particular incident, the police were nearly involved because the job's worth security guard did not believe I was a male belly dancer and tried to stop me attending my class.

    Males in society do come in for a bad rap, the minority make that so which ruins it for everyone else, because common thought is where there are females there are always predatory males trying to weedle their way in.

    The trouble is now, I am aware of my position in this deceptively unfair society, so a class where I wish to attend, i do not just turn up as many do responding to posted advertisements, but I write to the tutor or organiser and ask if I am allowed to attend, this goes for dance festivals as well, even the festival where I met Tarik Sultan.
    Last edited by khanjar; 02-06-2012 at 02:06 AM.

  4. #24
    Moderator Zorba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Merritt Island, Fl.
    Posts
    2,661
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amulya View Post
    I remember years ago there was someone on Bhuz who complained he wasn't allowed in belly dance classes because he was a guy.
    That would have been Mike Waldie - also in England.

    This seems to be a real problem in GB - not so much here in the states. I don't grok...

  5. #25
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    South West England
    Posts
    1,915
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Now I know you lot in the US have some pretty narrow minded dare I say backward characters in your country and that observed via what media comes out, but on the whole, I commend the US on being an improvement on what my country is, for you on the whole appear to be somewhat more free in your choices than what we are here. Sure we say we are free, but certain experiences say different, which indicates to me that the UK is in fact a false country built upon barely effective laws and supposition. The older I get, the more disgusted I get with my own country and especially so the more research I do into it's history.

  6. #26
    Premium Member Aniseteph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Sussex, England
    Posts
    4,856
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I have no idea how much of a problem it is in the UK now. I imagine it is extremely variable depending on how local classes have evolved. IMO in a proper dance class nobody much cares. It's a dance class, who cares who else is in the class if everyone is focused on learning the dance?

    OTOH in a touchy feely get in contact with your inner goddess therapy bonding session, or what is more of a sparkly social club, or a class that has a teacher or a strong personality with political ideas about what belly dance is (not for the likes of Khaled, Ozgen and Shafeek then? ), they could make it very difficult and play the by women for women we-need-our-space card. I wouldn't be surprised if lots of organisations buy that quite happily.

    But I don't see how groups who reject male students out of hand can claim to be about teaching/learning the dance anymore, in the face of so many role models nowadays. Maybe they never heard of Tito or think he's irrelevant?

  7. #27
    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,952
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by khanjar View Post
    Now I know you lot in the US have some pretty narrow minded dare I say backward characters in your country and that observed via what media comes out, but on the whole, I commend the US on being an improvement on what my country is, for you on the whole appear to be somewhat more free in your choices than what we are here.
    I wonder if the belly dance side of the problems is rooted in the strong early influence of separtist feminist spirituality in the dance in the UK - I'm thinking Wendy B and Suraya. (True there seemed to be a similar strong movement of "by women, for women" in the western states - but there were also other strong influences)

    Here I often get an odd look when I say I accept men in class - or that some of my major teachers were men - but it is usually accepted. The only problem I know of here was with some devout Muslim women who would not come to class if men were around. But I think if it went to court the teacher would have had to have a mixed class (I'm pretty sure there isn't a "leisure activity" out in our legislation)

    ETA That said, I remember when Barrymore visited NZ after some fuss in the UK about his sexuality and he commented how in NZ a couple of out lesbian sisters had been one of the favourites of the older conservative set for over a decade and it could never have happened in the UK. So maybe it is wider than that.
    Last edited by Kashmir; 02-06-2012 at 08:13 PM.

  8. #28
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Western Australia
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I manage a women's health service and still see gender inequities, lower pay rates, being a big one but i often reflect that white men under the age of 50 are the most discriminated against population in Australia. The group that is supposed to be most dominant yet there is no support available to them. On the topic of men in dance, in most styles I find teachers bend over backwards to have boys and men in their classes and they are fawned over and get away with things females never would because they r male and there are so few males Dancing so when a school gets one they grab him and don't want to lose him BUT belly dance seems to be the exception to that rule. Society expects women belly dancers not men. Could it b that the female instructors who have turned down males students have done so because they don't know how
    men should dance and so the don't know how to teach them? I have been to workshops with 2 male teachers, 1 of whom was great and 1 of whom was a lazy so and so who got by being ill prepared because he was gorgeous but when I had a young man attend one of my workshops I was upset with the organizers because I didn't know in advance, I was unexperienced in male dance so didn't know how to alter my content to best meet his needs and I would have appreciated advance notice so I could have researched etc.

  9. #29
    V.I.P. Ariadne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    NE Mojave Desert
    Posts
    2,275
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by khanjar View Post
    Now I know you lot in the US have some pretty narrow minded dare I say backward characters in your country and that observed via what media comes out
    Well, first off I wouldn't use the media as an accurate view of US views. The news media for the most part spins extreme left and often does their best to make anything to the right look bad even if it's an extremely inaccurate portrayal. It's so bad some of them have actually realized they're completely out of touch and are creating "liaison" positions so they can hire someone to explain the motives behind things to their reporters since they just don't get it. The movie/TV industry for the most part panders to a group that is probably less then 20% of the population. On top of that the US is very large and we have a great many regions. While there is an "American" culture there is also an awful lot of subcultures.

    That said the discrimination I have seen in the US occurs on the fringe of both sides. On one extreme is men expected to be grunting, belching, manly (cave) men and on the other they must be "sophisticated", metropolitan, unaggressive, feminists or they're not "real men". The reality is that most men fall somewhere in the middle but unfortunately the media seems to only recognize the two extremes and either treats men like they are "stupid" neanderthals or "civilized" metro-sexuals. It's gotten so bad that most of the men I know no longer watch most cable/TV shows because they're tired of the insults and stereotyping.

    Also most of the men I know have absolutely no problem with the idea of a male bellydancer. They may think it's odd and it doesn't mean their interested but hey, whatever floats their boat. That's individually of course. Society in general is unfortunately rarely individual but rather the perception of whoever and whatever group is the loudest. Right now the loudest is usually those represented by the media... and since public perception also tends to shape public policy...



    Personally I get annoyed at both the people (often men) who seem to think that my husband is a "pansy" because he actually cares about my opinion and the ones who think he is "uncultured" because he couldn't care less about name brand suits etc. Fortunately in reality they are a minority (albeit a loud one) but seriously people, get over yourselves.


    PS. My husband has been called a liar by more then one feminist man when he told them that not only doesn't he have a problem working for women he prefers female bosses, which he does. Evidently in their world view every man in existence is by nature prejudiced against women so he must be deluded or lying. Please, like I would have married him if that was true.

  10. #30
    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,952
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmab81 View Post
    when I had a young man attend one of my workshops I was upset with the organizers because I didn't know in advance, I was unexperienced in male dance so didn't know how to alter my content to best meet his needs and I would have appreciated advance notice so I could have researched etc.
    Unless you were teaching something like haggala there isn't much you need to change. In Egypt (for example) men have the same movement vocab in social situations as women. Professional dancers have more restrictions though. So if you are teaching dance - you teach dance. (If you are in Western Australia you may have seen Gintaurus way back when - don't tell him he can only do X or Y!)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •