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  1. #51
    Moderator Zorba's Avatar
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    P.S. for Erik:

    I also have a pierced navel and a "tramp stamp" tattoo - both of which are considered "girly". I got them as a large percentage of my local dance sisters have them and I like them. I'm getting a Lotus flower on the nape of my neck in about 3 weeks.

    Geez, I have a lower back and a navel - what's "Feminine" about that? I'd like to get a nose stud too - but I have so many problems with my nose and sinuses, that it wouldn't be pretty! But I have a nose as well! Now I might have a problem getting a clitoral piercing as that's biology and truly a girl piercing!

    Not to mention my HUGE collection of dangle earrings - whoops, I have ears!

    I like "pretty" things and being beautiful. There's no reason whatsoever why a male cannot be beautiful if he wants to be. I wear a small amount of makeup in my daily life - and of course tons of it to perform. I keep my nails painted and my eyebrows waxed. Why not? Its fun! My wife and I often go to the nail salon together - although we go to different salons for brows and facials. Oops! I have a face, eyebrows and nails!
    Last edited by Zorba; 02-09-2012 at 08:10 PM.

  2. #52
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    P.S. for Erik:

    I also have a pierced navel and a "tramp stamp" tattoo - both of which are considered "girly". I got them as a large percentage of my local dance sisters have them and I like them.

    Geez, I have a lower back and a navel - what's "Feminine" about that? I'd like to get a nose stud too - but I have so many problems with my nose and sinuses, that it wouldn't be pretty! But I have a nose as well! Now I might have a problem getting a clitoral piercing as that's biology and truly a girl piercing!

    Not to mention my HUGE collection of dangle earrings - whoops, I have ears!
    Hey Zorba, try nipple piercings, they're fun, you won't be breast feeding, that is for sure.

  3. #53
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
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    But do you see, the nefarious link I posted is quite correct, the biggest obstacle to males achieving equality is males themselves.

    But of equality, do women need to meet us, or is it we have to work to meet them, is stepping down more alien than stepping up ?

  4. #54
    Moderator Zorba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanjar View Post
    Hey Zorba, try nipple piercings, they're fun, you won't be breast feeding, that is for sure.
    I would in a heartbeat if my wife was into that kind of thing. As she is not, they wouldn't really serve any purpose as I don't expose my chest in pubic as a general rule.

  5. #55
    Moderator Zorba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanjar View Post
    But do you see, the nefarious link I posted is quite correct, the biggest obstacle to males achieving equality is males themselves.
    Absolutely!
    But of equality, do women need to meet us, or is it we have to work to meet them, is stepping down more alien than stepping up ?
    This is a large part of the problem - when a woman emulates "masculinity", she is considered to be "stepping up". Thus women can wear so-called "men's" clothing without much demur. When a man emulates "femininity", it is considered "stepping down" - an idea which I utterly reject.

  6. #56
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
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    The reason for all this, this topic is I suspected I was being discriminated against on grounds of gender again, and today it was confirmed, women only classes do not by the very nature of them being women only will not accept males, I am now out of BD and very deeply hurt.

  7. #57
    V.I.P. Ariadne's Avatar
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    Can't you find any classes that will take you khanjar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    This is a large part of the problem - when a woman emulates "masculinity", she is considered to be "stepping up". Thus women can wear so-called "men's" clothing without much demur. When a man emulates "femininity", it is considered "stepping down" - an idea which I utterly reject.
    Funny thing that, I know women who consider other women acting "manly" to be a stepping down but that men who show what they consider feminine traits; communication skills, nurturing, aesthete, to be more "advanced" then other men. It's not as common an attitude I will give you but it is one I run into in my studies of history as well so it's not new and creates just as many problems. Either attitude is basically looking down on others for nothing more then their birth. I agree with the french in "vive la différence" but celebrating our differences (individually as well as genetically) to me is the polar opposite of looking down on someone for being different. We should each celebrate who and what we are.

  8. #58
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
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    So far, I know of none, what I had was a beacon in a sea of darkness, but I have posted on this website to see if anyone knows of anything else, because times change and moods mellow.

    And to think of my existing class, I was going to suggest once back in the flow of things that I concentrate on solo tribal as a compliment to the rest of the female troupe, as it was my desire to stop messing around, stop having no confidence in my abilities and just do it, meet my nemesis, public exposure as a male belly dancer.

    But, I fear I have now burned my bridges for emotion can be a damaging thing and when one is hurt, they tend to lash out and I have lashed out. I feel silly now the storm has cleared, but I must be responsible for my actions.

  9. #59
    Moderator Darshiva's Avatar
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    khanjar, it is horrible being socially isolated, no matter what the reason. Having been there myself (and continuing to be so in the local region) I'll tell you what I did to survive it.

    I've been studying from instructional videos for years now (this helps you learn dance outside of a classroom setting) but I also go to the capital every few months and take a private lesson or two with the best teachers I can find.

    So save up your money & contact the best dance teachers you can find in London (lucky you, you will have access to some of the best in the world) explain that you are a male dancer with a genuine interest in bellydance and cannot join a local class due to gender discrimination. Eventually you will find a top-notch teacher who will teach you because of your dedication to this dance and congratulations, you will have some world-class bellydance teachers on your dance resume.

    It will take you a LOT longer to learn this dance & achieve levels doing it this way, but you are in it for the dance, not the classes, right?

    Just remember that there are always options available. You may only be able to afford 4 classes a year this way, but at least they will be GOOD classes. And once you can say you have been dancing with X from London for a while, maybe the local teachers who are worried about pervs will begin to take you seriously.

  10. #60
    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanjar View Post
    many females still see the male gender despite not having male parts, so unless the person concerned is a self confident person, they are in for a very rough ride where many consider them neither one sex or the other.
    In the 1980s I was part of a feminist separtist group that was eventually split by whether or not to accept a MF Trans. In NZ prisons I have heard your sex is determined by your genitals - not your birth certificate so those who have gone partially down the road and can pass in most situations end up in men's prisons.

    No, honestly, I think any discrimination you are getting now as a man interested in belly dance is minor compared to what you'd face as a Trans.

    Have you looked for workshops in other parts of the UK? Maybe you can mix and match one or two intensive workshops with self-study. Or emmigrate to NZ or Oz!

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