On having the basics in common.

Aniseteph

New member
I've read so many times that all the different styles of what gets called bellydance are linked by having the basic movements in common. The music, the aethetic, the intention may have diverged, but the core is the same.

How "the same" is it?

I see different techniques, different movement vocabularies, different emphasis within the same movement. When you get geeky on how movements are generated, where the tensions and releases are, where energy is centred, is there a difference?

In plain black leotards with no music, could you tell the difference between ATS/ITS, Egyptian orientale, TF, Turkish, American Orientale... if the dancer was just doing basic movements? Or do differences in body type and personal style override any of these divisions?

If you have studied more than one style yourself in depth, is there a difference between the way YOU do/feel the basics?

Thoughts?
 

Sophia Maria

New member
I think you actually can see a very basic difference in where (in terms of muscles) movements are coming from. In plain black practicewear I think sometimes the origin of really basic movements in Egyptian and American would look more similar...I suppose I do mostly an American Oriental style, with Egyptian inspirations, but I've also taken TF workshops which feels a lot different on the body.

A lot of it also is different body types, too. For instance, I almost never do shoulder shimmies, because I just don't think they look good on me. I personally think everybody's shimmy is unique--no two shimmies alike! And this depends not only on body type (skinniness, curviness, etc) but also on personal style, because it seems to me each dancer puts a unique energy and emotion into their shimmy.

i can't really speak for Turkish, I can't say that I've done much in the style.
 

Yame

New member
In plain black leotards with no music, could you tell the difference between ATS/ITS, Egyptian orientale, TF, Turkish, American Orientale... if the dancer was just doing basic movements?

If there is no music and the person is just drilling basic movements, this is not dancing. It's drilling technique. Differences in style mostly come from the way music is interpreted, the different variations and emphases of the movements, facial expression and body language, usage of arms, etc.

With that said, there are technique and postural variations even at the most basic level which do affect the aesthetic of the dance. So even basic technique can and does affect style, and yes, I could tell the difference between *some* (not all) of these styles if I watched someone drill basic movements without music or a fancy costume.
 

Yame

New member
Additionally, there are "basic movements" that are used very often in some styles but not as often in others, if at all.
 

walladah

New member
I do not consider myself an expert, but I can say

from the little i know that the basics are in common, esp. the traditional stuff in oriental dance.

THe dances created for stage performance, particularly the modern styles, have several differentiations, but their core is still the same.

I am talking about egyptian style (raq sharki, baladi style etc) lebanese style, turkish style, gypsy style, greek style - but i would say that even ATS and tribal fusion have kept more or less the same core.

I can also say that i have seen, particularly in tribal fusion, reviving movements that exist in forgotten or disdained styles, like the greek tsifteteli. I mean, that for reasons i do not know, if you keep the core intact, the music might lead you again to routes that might have been forgotten the last decades.

THen, i think that music is important - i think that it leads the body to continue repeating the basics.

Moreover, the more one studies different styles, the more she finds out the connections between them. And this is normal because if people tend to find differences between styles, they just reaffirm commonalities (if of course you study in a systematic way), although very few teachers teach while knowing many styles to show the movement in different contexts.
 

LilithNoor

New member
I'd expect to see a difference between a cabaret style and ATS, because the general posture is different. When my class dance ATS, we are expected to hold our ribs higher, and to keep our elbows up more.

I think I would also be able to make a guess based on the moves they used- a cab dancer would probably do a standard shimmy, whereas ATS dancers usually use a 3/4 shimmy. Cab mayas are done at any speed, ATS taxims are always veery slow.
 

Duvet

Member
I think if someone showed me a suficient variety of moves for each type, without costume or music, I could spot which one was Egyptian, Turkish, or Tribal as an overall idea.

There are differences in technique, posture and use of the arms, and they would guide me. But there is overlap, and there are a number of different types of dancing within each of the three styles I'm familiar with which I might find harder to distinguish. For instance, I still get confused between Egyptian cabaret and Turkish, and I wouldn't be able to distinguish Black Sheep from original ATS, although I'd still know it was Tribal. But I think I'm aware of where I wouldn't be quite sure, and the reasons why.

Perhaps someone could try it with their class?
 

Kashmir

New member
In plain black leotards with no music, could you tell the difference between ATS/ITS, Egyptian orientale, TF, Turkish, American Orientale... if the dancer was just doing basic movements? Or do differences in body type and personal style override any of these divisions?
Without music it isn't belly dancing - it's drills. It could be any of the above - or even jazz if the hands have been softened. That said, there may be some differences you could pick up. In general,
  • Heavy use of upper body isolations would rule out Egyptian style
  • Tight, isolated, down emphasized hips would rule out Turkish style
  • ATS posture is used in no other style that I am aware of
  • Drilling the standard slow moves or fast moves are a pointer to ATS
 

Aniseteph

New member
Once you give them music and they really dance I don't think it would be so hard, unless you gave them a very carefully selected combination of moves to do.

I get it that if you take everything away it's just drills not dancing. Actually maybe I do mean just at the drilling it level :think:. The black leotards thing was just trying to dissect out stylistic cues and cut to those basics-that-we-all-have-in-common. Or don't. I increasingly wonder... could you say we share some of those technical roots with a whole load of dance styles? Does the Egyptian style belly dancer's basic technique overlap with burlesque? with hiphop? with hula? with jazz? as much as with tribal fusion?

Ach, spot the over analytical scientist. Note to self not to explore strange thoughts when running a temperature. :rolleyes:
 

Darshiva

Moderator
And spot the science background over here... I thought you said 'note to self, explore such throughts at room temperature' (you know, to control the variables of the experiment.)
 

Aniseteph

New member
Hmmm... depends if it's outside an "acceptable temperature for posting" range. I guess we all have our own quality control for posting when ill/ annoyed/ silly/ drunk etc. I have been deleting a lot before posting the last few days - I keep looking at threads and thinking "I thought I posted on that...? :confused:). Probably for the best.

I still think the basics diverge pretty fast and overlap with other non-BD styles down there. There's a 3-D tree 'n' Venn diagrams combo in my head but I think that's the fever talking. :D
 

Darshiva

Moderator
Former winery lab tech here - qc is all about room temp for winery work.

As for style overlap it really does depend on the style. I can see some familiarity between tribal and bellydance, but even without music & costumes to tip me off I can spot the difference. Between turkish, Am Cab & Egyptian for example, not so much without the music & costumes to tip me off. There are a lot of blurred lines and borrowings from one style to the next and the big stylistic differences do tend to be how the music is interpreted and the music used.
 

Jane

New member
I'm pretty confident I could spot the difference between dancers by movement alone. American Oriental, Egyptian Raqs Sharqi, Turkish, Tribal Fusion and ATS use a lot of different movement vocabulary, body points of reference, posture, arm use, and weight/foot placement. Anyone want to post a video challenge thread so we can all have a go? :)
 

jenc

New member
Don't know if I am going off at a tangent from what you wanted to know - but to me this is a real example of how music, intention, how the moves are put together - which makes this into a whole different dance form - so I don't think that Egyptian technique shares roots with burlesque etc as I don't think that Egyptian technique at least is in any way separate from the aesthetic.

 

Aniseteph

New member
I agree that the minute you add music and intention and start putting the moves to the music in an Egyptian way, or a TF way, or a burlesque way etc it diverges into different forms. I don't buy the argument that we are all shimmy sisters under the skin and basically doing the same dance because it's got the same roots/core movement vocab, because so much else that is IMO overridingly important changes. I'm just musing on whether even the "core moves in common" argument holds up.

Would the dancers in that clip use the same basic technique if they were doing the kind of Egyptian that looked like it just left Cairo? Or an established Tribal style? Or do the core-moves-in-common only apply to a more globalised BD style?

Not expecting answers, just musing. :cool:
 

jenc

New member
I don't think it applies to native egyptian styles. There is noreal concept of divorcing the tecxhnique from interpreting (drilling). My native Egyptian teacher was thinking of organising a trip to cairo. I asked her if she would organise any lessons for BD. She said that egyptians don't learn to BD.
 

Salome

Administrator
I've read so many times that all the different styles of what gets called bellydance are linked by having the basic movements in common. The music, the aethetic, the intention may have diverged, but the core is the same.

How "the same" is it?

I see different techniques, different movement vocabularies, different emphasis within the same movement. When you get geeky on how movements are generated, where the tensions and releases are, where energy is centred, is there a difference?

In plain black leotards with no music, could you tell the difference between ATS/ITS, Egyptian orientale, TF, Turkish, American Orientale... if the dancer was just doing basic movements? Or do differences in body type and personal style override any of these divisions?

If you have studied more than one style yourself in depth, is there a difference between the way YOU do/feel the basics?

Thoughts?

I get what you are saying and yes without other cues and just on producing movement alone you could identify to which style. Oriental shares lifts, drops, slides, circles, eights, undulations, shimmes, traveling, spins etc. but how these movement families are generated and where on the body etc. is part of where the distinctions start happening.
 
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