Pagan Bellydance!

[Hadiya Dance]

Hello Hadiya, I was actually just about to post that I thought it was very nice to see someone jump into a somewhat heated discussion and being as respectful and polite as you were. We do get a few "you're all jellus haters" comments from new members, so one can get a bit sceptical. I hope you will share your thoughts on many of the other discussions as well. Welcome to the forum

Thank you, Gisela! I do try my best
I will! Thanks again!

xox

 

[khanjar]

Pardon me, Khanjar, are you indicating that I should have introduced myself before I made my comment? I was not under the impression that that was called for. So - I do not see why you brought it up. Especially on a thread where everyone is discussing a video and not who they are and where they come from. Are newcomers not allowed to comment on threads that spike their interest?

I heard about the discussion here and was told that this was a very interactive and interesting forum! I figured I'd join, check it out, and give my opinion. Which I did rather respectfully.

I see you have very nice manners and in no way make pointed comments. It would be nice to be addressed as Hadiya and not as "another one" from NY.

As far as an introduction, Hi I'm Hadiya, I'm from NY and I am not vending anything. I am not here only for this thread, as has been implied, but rather to join another one of the many internet forums for the greater belly dance community.

I've been belly dancing for about 10 years and am very interested in discussing all things belly dance. If you need anymore information, please PM me, as I will not be taking up room on this thread continuing a dialogue about my personal introduction.

Thank you!
Happy Shimmies

Yes, it is generally considered to be respectful to introduce oneself in the meet and greet section before when delves into the thick of it, but I hope you pardon my inference, but you have to agree the attention this particular thread is receiving from first time posters is kind of curious, your location coincides with bad cop and the original post, so suspicions are well founded you have to agree ? Further to that you say you heard about this particular discussion off line on this website where previously you were not registered, can you see where I am coming from ?

Yes this particular website is good in that it is very interactive and with that friendly, helpful and very often not judgemental, but in my opinion this thread came in for a unusual amount of flack, why, I don't know, but things have transpired as they have, but one thing is certain mixing our common interest with spirituality is a contentious subject as it is off line and so perhaps it is best for us all to keep it to a minimum for the continued good will this website offers to all.

But anyway, greetings Hadiya, please accept my apology for being as I was before, but, well, I have explained myself adequately I think.

I do look forward to your continued involvement in this website, the more the merrier, but quality not quantity.

Khanjar.

 

[Hadiya Dance]

Yes, it is generally considered to be respectful to introduce oneself in the meet and greet section before when delves into the thick of it, but I hope you pardon my inference, but you have to agree the attention this particular thread is receiving from first time posters is kind of curious, your location coincides with bad cop and the original post, so suspicions are well founded you have to agree ? Further to that you say you heard about this particular discussion off line on this website where previously you were not registered, can you see where I am coming from ?

Yes this particular website is good in that it is very interactive and with that friendly, helpful and very often not judgemental, but in my opinion this thread came in for a unusual amount of flack, why, I don't know, but things have transpired as they have, but one thing is certain mixing our common interest with spirituality is a contentious subject as it is off line and so perhaps it is best for us all to keep it to a minimum for the continued good will this website offers to all.

But anyway, greetings Hadiya, please accept my apology for being as I was before, but, well, I have explained myself adequately I think.

I do look forward to your continued involvement in this website, the more the merrier, but quality not quantity.

Khanjar.

Hey there, Khanjar! Thank you for taking the time to reply back to me, I appreciate it. I do understand what you are saying. But I would like to point out that one should never assume without more information. Just to explain - I was not playing bad cop, which I'm sure you know by now, but was rather trying to give a balanced perspective. That was why I was originally thrown back as to why my response was met with suspicion rather than a counterpoint. Conversations on internet forums do not worry me and I try not to read too much into them. I see no reason for suspicion when we're all being adults.

It would not have been known that I had heard about this offline until I mentioned it. And the reason I mentioned that was to show that I have nothing to hide. I do not see anything wrong with this topic being discussed off line. Conversations and debates are supposed to be very stimulating. As I said, I joined this website because I was curious and interested. Nothing wrong with that

I only noticed two other first time posters. I am not familiar with the nature of these forums, but from what you've said I now know that first time posters avoid jumping into already ongoing discussions. Which, personally, I think is a shame. I think it's one of the best ways to test out the waters. Also, I think it's only natural to focus on threads with the current posts...

Like I said, no worries at all Happy to move on from this, and I accept. Yes, you did Thank you for your greetings and your explanation. I look forward to getting to know everyone more and speaking to you again on other topics.

~H

 

[Kashmir]

The roots of all dance are pagan, including bellydance, and trace back to Northern Africa, just like the origins of all humans. Ritualized movements started as a way to celebrate, pray or implore to energies seen as bigger than them - Earth based stuff. Then these movements become folk dances when the original spiritual worldview changed, ie Islam/Judaism/Christinanity. Then the dance becomes entertainment when some of those folk dancers become professionals and do innovative things like create Raqs sharki or Ballet or Hip Hop. This is Curt Sach's stuff - "World History of the Dance".

I'll step in here on behalf of Zumarrad (at the IBDC I think - unless it's finished). Curt Sach is pretty much discredited these days as a bigot - ie people evolved until they became like me - ie Western Dance is the pinnacle of dance evolution. The idea that dance began as prayer is also largely discredited - or at least has no evidense to back it up. Animals (which we are) also move for the sheer joy of movement - and as a group bonding thing - our brains release happy hormones when we move together (which is one reason ATS is so popular).

 

[Kashmir]

I also used bellydance as a way to pray/raise energy so I try not to separate the dance from my soul's whispers. This is my personal practice and often when I perform it's a totally different adrenaline/exhaustion thing, unless I'm lucky enough to dance for an ashram or Buddhist monks!

Good on you to use something you know and love to pray/raise energy. This would give it a very special personal flavour. Personally, I wouldn't call the result "belly dance" because the purpose is religious while the purpose of belly dance is the music. That is, belly dance is not just a movement vocabulary. You can use the movements to belly dance, to worship, to add flavour at a party - but that doesn't make all three belly dance.

 

[Jane]

I keep my belly dancing and Neo-Paganism separate in public. I do this for a very specific reason: Belly dance is from the lands of Islam. People of other religions, notably Jews and Christians, also performed belly dance, but while living in the lands of Islam. Trying to take another region's cultural dance form and claim it as our Pagan past, with no valid proof, is cultural appropriation IMO. Religion is based in faith, but when we start making claims, we need peer reviewed and expert cited facts to back up our assertions. Margaret Murray and Curt Sach's both got tossed in the research chum bucket a long time ago. Ancient origins of belly dance and the Pagan revival movements born in the UK certainly do have some things in common- Victorian mania for Orientalism. However, neither Neo-Paganism or belly dance need to be ancient to be valid!

Going to be totally honest here. I think Jehan is a great dancer and theatrical artist. I don't believe she is an authentic belly dancer (I don't think she claims to be) and that's what I'm really into. After I saw that awful Goth video she was in (can't remember the name) I lost a lot of respect for her as an artist. I feel like the BDSM scene she was in was a total cheap sex selling point and had no connection to belly dance. Goth aesthetic or not, it was misplaced and in poor taste to include on a "belly dance" video. This is what sparked my knee jerk reaction of dislike for the original clip- besides the fact that there wasn't any belly dance. I strongly dislike bellydance/BDSM/Paganism all lumped into one big counter culture. Belly dance is not counter-culture, it is Middle Eastern culture. Any movement to music can raise energy. As a belly dancing Neo-Pagan I get tired of being pigeon-holed and shoved into a box. I like history and research, and Neo-Paganism and I also support separating fact from fantasy. We don't do anyone any favors by blurring lines and making assertions and claims we can't back up.

 

[Jane]

Pardon me, Khanjar, are you indicating that I should have introduced myself before I made my comment? I was not under the impression that that was called for. So - I do not see why you brought it up. Especially on a thread where everyone is discussing a video and not who they are and where they come from. Are newcomers not allowed to comment on threads that spike their interest?

I'm not one of the mods on here, but on most forums it is considered polite to:
First RFM. Read the forum rules and stickys. Lurk for awhile. Look around and get to know people. See the kinds of things that are being discussed or have already been discussed to death so you can avoid re-posting the same topics/questions. Also, use the search function to see if your question has already been answered on the forum. Then introduce yourself in the new member section. That way, folks on the forum will know you aren't a hit-and-run poster, sock puppet or a troll.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Shanazel]

That was a very pretty little video that I personally disliked because it was cute, sweet, and sentimental. I also loathe The Lion King (all those sweet little prey animals cheering the birth of the new preditor), Good Night, Moon (one of my personal visions of hell is being forced to read that damn book every night for the rest of eternity), and anything painted by Thomas Kincaid (blessings on his recently departed soul).

Since Jane essentially expressed many of my thoughts in her post earlier this evening, I'll just raise my thumb in agreement.

 

[Erik]

For Pagan friendly folk and their kids! "Enchanted Garden". With Aerialists, Mermaids, Fairies, Nymphs, Snake dancers, Horses, Fire Dancers and Bellydancers: Jehan Kamal, Cristina Dancer and Syrena Nikole.

What's this? No human sacrifice? What kind of Pagans are you?

Hi Tarabelly. I think I've seen you on YouTube.

I enjoyed the video but must agree with the others. I am a male and I don't dance. Perhaps that is two strikes in the minds of some. There are five of us here that I have counted. One is a moderator if I am not mistaken. Another appeared to have gone before I joined but recently he came back. [I keep meaning to ask him if he is Harry Soroyan or a different Harry, but I keep forgetting.]

I also am not ashamed to call myself a Christian, and that is definitely a strike in the minds of some, but I steadfastly refuse to go to church and have no problem with interracial marriage, as supported I believe by a verse in the Book of Corinthians. Not all Christians, Jews, and Muslims are close-minded extremists, but sometimes reading on the Internet I feel that Pagans and atheists are trying us based on episodes from history. I have atheist friends but prefer the company of Pagans because they believe in something beyond that which can be taken in by meager sensory input (I agree with Deepak Chopra on this), instruments which are merely extensions of our senses, and the miserably small percentage of our brains that we actually use.

In this case I spell Pagan with a capital "P" because you did so, but I agree with Jane that this is a Neo-Pagan revival, and although I am not part of it I think I may understand why it is happening. Pagans were killed by followers of the monotheistic Abrahamic religions, but let's not forget that Pagans did a fair amount of killing them as well, and they also killed each other. I will be happy to split hairs with anyone on this issue. It wasn't all about fairies and nymphs and sprites dancing happily.

As an interested non-dancer I have been treated very well on this forum. Oh, there have been a few scrapes, but such is life. Even before I joined I noticed that most of the members who post have a rather concise view of what bellydance is, and they have little tolerance for a revision of that definition. I grew up believing that the dance had its roots in ancient times, and I was disappointed to find that there is not a shred of evidence to prove that it dates no earlier than 1800's-1926, but fortunately I had placed it in perspective before I joined. Yes, it was a bummer at first to realize that the "world's oldest dance" crap which I had believed for years was pure speculation, but.....in some kind of strange way which I am at a loss to explain.....the truth is liberating.

On another thread I protested people using the dance to make it about something which is important to them personally, including but not limited to religion/spirituality. I expected flak from Pagans on this forum but got absolutely none. Who except some (but not all) Pagans are trying to synthesize their beliefs with bellydance these days? If Christians, Muslims, Jews, and followers of any other religion were doing it I would certainly sound off about it, but in truth I don't see anyone else trying to establish a religious connection.
.

 

[khanjar]

I keep my belly dancing and Neo-Paganism separate in public. I do this for a very specific reason: Belly dance is from the lands of Islam. People of other religions, notably Jews and Christians, also performed belly dance, but while living in the lands of Islam. Trying to take another region's cultural dance form and claim it as our Pagan past, with no valid proof, is cultural appropriation IMO.

Exactly and what some seek to do to another's culture, to me comes across loud and clear as yet another form of colonialism, the redefinition of other people's lives to suit a foreigner's purpose, be that commercial or otherwise.

Religion is based in faith, but when we start making claims, we need peer reviewed and expert cited facts to back up our assertions. Margaret Murray and Curt Sach's both got tossed in the research chum bucket a long time ago. Ancient origins of belly dance and the Pagan revival movements born in the UK certainly do have some things in common- Victorian mania for Orientalism. However, neither Neo-Paganism or belly dance need to be ancient to be valid!

The only possible link I can find regarding BD and well wicca, is the Aradia, Herodias and Diana connection which originates as Herod, Herod's wife and their daughter Salome and the legendary dance of the seven veils, but did Salome dance belly dance, theatre perhaps would have us believe it, but did she, is it fact or is it assumption, and assumption based upon the belief of some that belly dance is ancient, and if it was, was it universal or was it regional, but I suppose a belief is fitting for a belief, but without proof, that is all it will be, a belief not fact.

I strongly dislike bellydance/BDSM/Paganism all lumped into one big counter culture. Belly dance is not counter-culture, it is Middle Eastern culture.

:clap::clap::clap:

Any movement to music can raise energy. As a belly dancing Neo-Pagan I get tired of being pigeon-holed and shoved into a box. I like history and research, and Neo-Paganism and I also support separating fact from fantasy. We don't do anyone any favors by blurring lines and making assertions and claims we can't back up.

Again :clap::clap::clap: Too true and not only does it misinform onlookers and mal-educate believers, it also insults the originating cultures and that to me is the biggest issue and myself coming from a country with a history of sticking it's nose into other people's countries and messing up their societies, I have a strong wish for that not to happen again, because we are fickle over here in the West, we will absorb everything, live it , breath it and taste it until we become distracted by something else and there we will drop what we were doing in the dust and move onto the next bright new thing, no doubt someone else's culture, where we will maul that too.

But a question, why do we seek other's cultures, what is wrong with our own?

 

[khanjar]

Eric, there is something else fuelling the rise in neo pagan belief and I have touched on it within this thread, something I believe originated with not the founder of Wicca, but a certain Doreen Valiente, but in the US I understand the influence was Graves and his White Goddess, as Buckland, Buckland being the one who took Wicca to the US, made no mention of it until much later after it was already circulating.

 

[Erik]

Thanks, Khanjar. I will look into this.

On Tribe recently some guy expressed his dissatisfaction with non-pagan beliefs because there was no earth-mother goddess. I stayed out of this one except to say that I was very comfortable with the concept of one deity controlling the entire show, and that I believed that when it comes to gender God is both and neither. The Catholics and their spinoffs have the Virgin Mary as a goddess type, although she may not compare exactly with Demeter/Ceres. Not a Catholic myself, but I believe that something happened in Portugal in 1917.

 

[Shanazel]

I'm not a big fan of Graves. Too much intellect, not enough heart. Big on woman and goddess as muse for man- phhhttttt.

Pagans have always been around. I suspect the rise in numbers has more to do with social acceptance and coming out of the closet than with the influence of any one person.

 

[Zorba]

After I saw that awful Goth video she was in (can't remember the name) I lost a lot of respect for her as an artist. I feel like the BDSM scene she was in was a total cheap sex selling point and had no connection to belly dance. Goth aesthetic or not, it was misplaced and in poor taste to include on a "belly dance" video.

THANK YOU!!!

Like I said in my review of that video at the time: "Now, I'm a guy, and I like kink as much as the next guy, but not in a dance video. For that matter, I can't say as I see much dancing going on in this segment, "Belly" or otherwise (There's some, but not much.). It has its place, but not here. Your Mileage May Vary! "

Zorba's Video Reviews: Gothic Bellydance

 

[Zorba]

Pagans have always been around. I suspect the rise in numbers has more to do with social acceptance and coming out of the closet than with the influence of any one person.

But of course. We were supressed for centuries. Look up the "Christianization of Europe" and "Theodosius the Great". Its enough to make anyone sick...

 

[Erik]

Pagans have always been around. I suspect the rise in numbers has more to do with social acceptance and coming out of the closet than with the influence of any one person.

Breaker Morant (End) - YouTube

 

[Kashmir]

The only possible link I can find regarding BD and well wicca, is the Aradia, Herodias and Diana connection which originates as Herod, Herod's wife and their daughter Salome and the legendary dance of the seven veils, but did Salome dance belly dance, theatre perhaps would have us believe it, but did she, is it fact or is it assumption, and assumption based upon the belief of some that belly dance is ancient, and if it was, was it universal or was it regional, but I suppose a belief is fitting for a belief, but without proof, that is all it will be, a belief not fact.

Yes, the "legendary dance of the Seven Veils" can only be traced back to Oscar Wilde’s Salomé (first performed in Paris in 1896). Incidentally Matthew 14:6-11 & Mark 6:21-28 never named the dancer. Salomé is mentioned as one of the daughters of Herodias by the first century CE historian Josephus – but it is not clear that Salomé was the one that "did the dance".

Assuming there was a dance at all, in may have been a solo, improved, torso specific one (I can't see her doing debke) - so under a very broad definition "belly dance". But no veils.

But a pretty thin link to Wicca at that.

 

[Tarabelly]

I'm guessing though despite the bigotry and ethnocentrism that a few of you have pointed out about Sach's work, that his whole body of work isn't in the "research chum bucket". Can't throw the baby out with the bath water! Curious to see and I'll report back.

About Bellydance origins, though, I guess there are two major issues popping up. One is how bellydance is defined. Like for example is the zar or guedra or the Tunisian water dance or that super earthy sexy I think Moroccan dance that is mostly floor work or the dance that the Bedouins did when Morocco (the dancer) went undercover in the 70s? I consider these bellydance so I'm more broad in general with my definition.

The other issue is proof. The first Western accounts also wrote from their ethnocentric background and were likely too blown away to notice if there were any spiritual or pagan aspects! But the dance didn't just appear out of nowhere when the first english written reports started to come out.

Also, I don't see bellydance as coming out of Islamic culture specifically, but flavored by it. There were quite a few religions and systems of belief popping up at the time, but the 3 main religions that took hold some 2000s years ago came from certain people who had a mystical experience and then created meaning from it- colored by their own background of culture and beliefs. Dance that looked like bellydance seems to have existed then and prior to then as well.

Exact proof that it was bellydance (again in the broader sense I define it, not specifically raks sharki)? Well no fossilized hip belts, but drawings, some writings, artifacts. Was it pagan (defined as Earth-based spirituality)? Definitely!

We call it a Christmas tree, but it was originally a pagan ritual. We call it raks sharki, but it was originally???? There is lots of room for questioning, that's for sure.

 

[khanjar]

If a dance is centred on the controlled use of hips and stomach, then perhaps it can be included under the heading; Belly dance, although the term belly dance is not what the originating cultures call it, nor like it being called today. The name belly dance was what foreigners called it, perhaps the same foreigners that redefined what belonged to someone else.

Zar, I would call religious like Guedra and yes. Sema, but not belly dance and that because of the fact that the dances do not centre on the hips and stomach, nor is it I suppose the intention of belly dancers to induce trance via repetitive and rapid movement, although I understand it can be done sometimes whilst drilling, but it is not generally the intention of performers, because it is not what audiences that engage belly dancers want to see.

But for something to be called belly dance, how far is one prepared to move away from the standard definition, and how far will you go before the same standards actually encompass other dances, say for example, Flamenco and hip hop ?

But as to anything that is not documented and proved, it is at best supposition, now sure we can all suppose and with the right amount of energy, we can believe, but all that belief will ever be is supposition without proof. Now I have my own suppositions based upon my own research into various aspects of what is called belly dance, and I have researched the military history of the regions and yes what I suspected could very well be there, there as I can join up the dots with my belief, but what I come out with is a possible, not an absolute and because I cannot prove what I think, what I think is for me only, not everyone else.

But of possibles, what if we allowed all possible to be fact, enough people believe in something then sure, it could be taken as fact, religion being a prime example, but if we allowed all possibles to be factual without irrevocable proof, then what sort of world would we live in ?

Now sure, I have done the pagan stuff for about thirty years, ever since I quit catholicism at age 9 because the priest did not like my thoughts and so told me what they used to do to heretics in the past and so sure I have been well into it at various points, dripping in pentagrams, symbolic silver jewellery and all that, but now in my mid life years although I do still believe much the same thing, I am more cautious these days and with that I expect you have already noticed; cynical and that because I have watched paganism scatter in all directions, encompassing much that plainly isn't, but there is always someone who is ready locked and loaded eager to try and change your thoughts, it is in some cases quite oppressive and to me harking back to another belief that held deadly control for centuries. The other thing I see too much of in paganism, is commercialism and with that commercialism actually fuelling paganism in some respects and I will go as far as to say actually controlling certain aspects via fashion.

But of paganism, I have lot of theories based on similarities, but I can't prove any, so I keep them to myself and use them for my own guidance.

 

[Kashmir]

About Bellydance origins, though, I guess there are two major issues popping up. One is how bellydance is defined. Like for example is the zar or guedra or the Tunisian water dance or that super earthy sexy I think Moroccan dance that is mostly floor work or the dance that the Bedouins did when Morocco (the dancer) went undercover in the 70s? I consider these bellydance so I'm more broad in general with my definition.

Whole new thread (or a repeat of some that have been around a while). There are a number of different levels of definition. Personally I switch between a broad "anything SITA for entertainment or celebration from the Middle East/North Africa" to "descendents of professional performance dance in the Levant" depending on context. However, I leave out specifically leave out rituals such as zar or guerda (unless within an Orientale) as it seems disrespectful.

The dance from Morocco is the Schikhatt - it isn't Bedouin it's Berber.

Also, I don't see bellydance as coming out of Islamic culture specifically, but flavored by it. There were quite a few religions and systems of belief popping up at the time, but the 3 main religions that took hold some 2000s years ago came from certain people who had a mystical experience and then created meaning from it- colored by their own background of culture and beliefs. Dance that looked like bellydance seems to have existed then and prior to then as well.

I agree - I'd be very surprised if pre-732CE there was no dancing in North Africa. But there is a strong Arabic influence (Arabic is not the same as Islamic). The music, which is vital, is strongly flavoured by Arab culture. But there are also African and Berber influences and when looking around the north east, Turkic (Asian) influences (the Ottomans brought back Islam to present day Turkey in their own cultural matrix).

However, with the narrower definition none of this is relevant as we cannot trace the dance back more than a few hundred years. And some limit it to post Casino Opera.