Other dances of the regions ?

[khanjar]

Just out of interest all the lands surrounding the Mediterranean sea what cultural dances if any have any movement with similarity to belly dance as we know it today ?

Or put it another way the countries that in the past were conquered by various empires originating in what is now Turkey.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Just out of interest all the lands surrounding the Mediterranean sea what cultural dances if any have any movement with similarity to belly dance as we know it today ?

Or put it another way the countries that in the past were conquered by various empires originating in what is now Turkey.

You will find variations in Greece and Bulgaria, but if you want to find the greatest number of torso and hip articulated dances you have to go to Africa. The articulation of this part of the body is an African phenominon as it occurs quite frequently all over the continent from north to south, east to west. Dances of this type can be found in East Africa from Somalia to Kenya, and the central African regions such as Congo, Uganda, Burundi etc.
Shimmies, hip articulations, twirling and rotating the hips and pelvis, undulations and isolations of the stomach muscles are all common features of dances found from the North African coast to the tip of South Africa.

Based on this fact it is my contention that Egyptian dance is a regional variation of a form of movement native to the continent. Given the fact that the dance is also found in the Eastern Mediterranian where Debka is the most practiced dance form, but that there ae no forms of Debka found in the Nile Valley or Delta, it would suggest the dance spread out of Africa via the Levant and then to Anatolia where it was introduced to neighboring regions most likely during the Ottoman Empire.

 

[khanjar]

So, Kochek who still exist and dance and danced in the Ottoman period, is any of their movement suggestive of what we understand today as belly dance, or is it a distinctive separate style entirely ? And who were the Kochek's originally, of Turkic origin or Dhimmi ?

 

[Tarik Sultan]

So, Kochek who still exist and dance and danced in the Ottoman period, is any of their movement suggestive of what we understand today as belly dance, or is it a distinctive separate style entirely ? And who were the Kochek's originally, of Turkic origin or Dhimmi ?

Their style, as real Turkish, "belly dance" for want of a better term, is very distinct in personality from Egyptian style. It's a far simpler movement vocabulary for one thing. You won't see any hip drops or the amount of complexity you find in what we recognize as "belly dance". It is an improvisational form in which the hips, shoulders and abdominal regions are the main focus. It really stands out from the majority of Turkish dances which are predominantly line and circle dances where the feet are the focus.

Having said that though, it should be understood that Kocek, (pronounced kuochek), is not really a "dance" persay, but a person. The koceks simply get paid to do the same type of solo social dance that everyone does. To make it more dramatic and set themselves apart from the guests, create spectical, the will wear a skirt and tight vest of some sort over their street clothes. Often times they soll up their shirts so their tee shirts show..... or they may not. Its not unusual that they simply perform in whatever they happen to be wearing, like jeans, or a pair of slacks and a shirt. But remember, the women also dance in the same style.

The koceks and their female counterparts simply get paid to do the same type of solo social dance that everyone does. To make it more dramatic and set themselves apart from the guests, create spectical, the men will wear a skirt and tight vest of some sort over their street clothes. Often times they roll up their shirts so their tee shirts show..... or they may not. The women may wear traditional outfits, or aproximations of belly dance costumes. Its not unusual that they simply perform in whatever they happen to be wearing, like jeans, or a pair of slacks and a shirt.

I've provided a variety of clips so you can get an idea of the form. The more spirited ones are from Ankara. The ones wearing the aprons are from Kostamanu


Ankara style






Bulgaria, (amature):

Couldn't find anything from Macedonia except cochek music...

As for the Kocek's origins. Today they are Turkish/Anatolian of various religious backgrounds. In the past a lot of the boys who were in the troups were orphens, sometimes slaves. A lot of them were recruited from the Greek islands, but many of them were also Armenians, Jews and Rom. If they were lucky, they returned home with enough money to start a family and business when they retired. The women, (known as chengis), generally retired when they got married.

Having said that though, it should be understood that Kocek, (pronounced kuochek), is not really a "dance" persay, but a person. It also referes to a style of music.

 

[Kashmir]

Just out of interest all the lands surrounding the Mediterranean sea what cultural dances if any have any movement with similarity to belly dance as we know it today ?

Or put it another way the countries that in the past were conquered by various empires originating in what is now Turkey.

Myth alert - why do people assume, if the link was conquest, that it was the Ottoman conquest that spread the dance? The Arab Empire predated the Ottoman by centuries and reached areas not reached by the Turks - such as Spain (flamenco anyone?). Further, the Ottoman Turks were converted by the Arabs before they came into Europe.

But for your orginal question, if you are looking at solo, improvised, torso articulated dance how about (solo) chifetteli (Greece), fellahi (Egypt pre-Reda), ghawazee (Egypt), Hagalla (Egypt/Libya), Houara (Morocco), Ouled Nail (Algeria), Persia (to a lesser extent), Sa`iidi (Egypt), Schikhatt (Morocco).

 

[Ariadne]

Because while there are foundational similarities with flamenco it is in the countries ruled by the Ottoman Empire that our first reports of tourists watching BD style dance come from. That doesn't make it a myth, just a theory, and one of many. How valid a theory it is depends entirely upon just how strict your interpretation of what BD is.

 

[khanjar]

Myth alert - why do people assume, if the link was conquest, that it was the Ottoman conquest that spread the dance? The Arab Empire predated the Ottoman by centuries and reached areas not reached by the Turks - such as Spain (flamenco anyone?). Further, the Ottoman Turks were converted by the Arabs before they came into Europe.

But for your orginal question, if you are looking at solo, improvised, torso articulated dance how about (solo) chifetteli (Greece), fellahi (Egypt pre-Reda), ghawazee (Egypt), Hagalla (Egypt/Libya), Houara (Morocco), Ouled Nail (Algeria), Persia (to a lesser extent), Sa`iidi (Egypt), Schikhatt (Morocco).

I understand about the spread of Islam and saudi Arabia being the heart of Islam through Mecca, but one does not generally see belly dance in that country or other satellite countries except where western tourists may happen, yet more northern countries which are not entirely Muslim belly dance and variants of it can be found. I understand of course because of SA's more conservative and segregated standing the no belly dance might just be that what is done is done in private as it has been from time to time belly dance tuition has been offered in such places as Riyadh and Jeddah, where western peoples have lived and worked.

The Ottoman empire did rule parts of SA, mostly the coastal regions that was what T.E.Lawrence was doing there with his Lawrence of Arabia role in the early twentieth century. Perhaps it is belly dance did originate with the Arabs, but perhaps it was the Ottomans that spread it all over their empire and to places where western visitors would happen upon it and report back or it could even be because of the Ottoman love of the arts and entertainment, they were responsible for a resurgence of the art and particularly so because they were not as conservative as the people of SA.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Arabs and the dance

This dance is not an "Arab" dance. While it is true that the dominant language of Egypt and Lebanon is Arabic, tis was not always the case. Before the Arab conquest Egypt had a language and culture that was quite distinct and independent of anything from Western Asia. Egyptian dance is an African phenominon. Its original language was an African language and its culture originated with the peoples of East Africa and the Sahara. It had nothing to do with Arabs.

As I pointed out before, the dominant dance style in the Levant is Debka, yet Egypt has no tradition of Debka. On the other hand though the Levant does have a tradition of dance almost identical to that found in Egypt, so what does that say? It says that the style of African movement made its way from Egypt into the Levant.

If you look at the ancient history of the region you will see that Egypt exerted a great deal of cultural influence on that area, in much the same way that American culture has exerted an influence around the globe today. These dance styles were alreay in place by the time their societies experienced changes in language, religion etc.

Having said that though, the variations of the dance did in fact spread to South Eastern Europe by way of the Ottoman Turks. This isn't speculation, but well known fact that is acknowledged in those countries such as Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece etc.

As for Flamenco. There is no connection between that and Raks whatsoever. It is totally different in character and form from Raks. The only connection is that Arabic is now spoken in Egypt and at one time Spain was ruled by Arabs. Flamenco has more similarities with the berber dances of Morocco, but credit must be given to the Spanish people themselves. They took elements from Berber dances, (understanding once again, Berbers are NOT Arabs), but they put their own spirit character and interpritation on it. It is uniquely their own. The fact that the offical rulers of Spain at one time spoke Arabic does not change the fact that Arabic was not the native language of North Africa, they were just ruled by Arabs. Nor should it be assumed that all Arab dances are related to Raks. The majority of dances found in the Arabian penninsula do not share any of the core characteristics with Egyptian dance at all. However, if you compare North African dances, (Egypt included in that) with the dances in Uganda, Congo, Somalia, Kenya, you will see that they are indeed part of a movement family.

 

[shiradotnet]

As I pointed out before, the dominant dance style in the Levant is Debka, yet Egypt has no tradition of Debka.

But let's not forget that there are many ethnic groups who lived within the borders of what we'd recognize today as Egypt - not just the people who lived in the great cities along the Nile, but also the desert dwellers, including the Bedouin. The Bedouin certainly have a tradition of debke, even those who live on the African continent. And they lived in Egypt even in Pharaonic times.

That said, I'd agree that the debke is not common in the urban areas of Egypt - it can be found among families who may have close Bedouin ties, and can be seen at their weddings (I've seen it). It's not dominant in the way that hip-oriented movement is dominant, but I don't think it's accurate to say, "Egypt has no tradition of debka" - it's more accurate to say debka exists in Egypt in some communities, but doesn't dominate in Egypt the way it dominates in the Levant.

I do agree with you that belly dance is indigenous to Africa and spread from there.

Yet, interestingly, when Badia Masabni opened Sala Badia in 1926, the first dancer she hired (in 1927) to perform in her club was Afranza Hanem, whom Badia brought in from Turkey.

 

[Kashmir]

Because while there are foundational similarities with flamenco it is in the countries ruled by the Ottoman Empire that our first reports of tourists watching BD style dance come from. That doesn't make it a myth, just a theory, and one of many. How valid a theory it is depends entirely upon just how strict your interpretation of what BD is.

No, my point was all these countries were first ruled by the Arab Empire. As the Arab Empire also strongly influenced the Turks (back when they were in eastern Asia) - why link the dance to the Turks rather than the Arabs who came first? (and passed on the Arabic language and Islam?)

 

[Tarik Sultan]

No, my point was all these countries were first ruled by the Arab Empire. As the Arab Empire also strongly influenced the Turks (back when they were in eastern Asia) - why link the dance to the Turks rather than the Arabs who came first? (and passed on the Arabic language and Islam?)

Well, yes, the Arabs did have control of most of Western Asia and North Africa first, but they can't be given credit for the spread of the dance for all the reasons previously mentioned, nor by the same token can the Turks. Incidentally, the Turks were not converted to Islam by Arab conquest. It happened as a result of making alliances with the Muslim Persians. Very complicated. Later, the Ottoman Turks would migrate into Anatolia, defeating the Byzantines and establishing the Ottoman Empire.

So while neither the Arabs or Turks had anything to do with this dance, it is a well known fact that the Ottoman Turks did introduce this style of dancing to the regions in south Eastern Europe. I think Khanjar mentioned the Ottoman Empire because they were the last to rule over most of the region from Eastern Europe to most of North Africa.

 

[Kashmir]

Thanks Tarik.

I wasn't arguing for the dance being spread by the Ottoman Turks - but rather questioning why people assume if it was so spread, why them? Subtle point I guess.

Yes, I agree, the likelihood is the dance originated in the eastern end of the Mediterrean and has strong African influences. I guess thay means Egypt (who also held land to present day Syria in the past.)

 

[Ariadne]

I wasn't arguing for the dance being spread by the Ottoman Turks - but rather questioning why people assume if it was so spread, why them? Subtle point I guess.

I would imagine it has something to do with the reputation that the Ottoman Turks had of fostering the arts. They gathered artists, musicians, and dancers among many others to their courts from all over their lands. It's an ideal environment for any dance or music to be shared and then spread.