Sadness of Reality

Aniseteph

New member
Saying someone made themselves vulnerable is a statement of fact. It's not saying they are to blame for anything that happens and it doesn't take away the responsibility from the perpetrators one little bit - it's just a fact. Everywhere has places it's not safe to be, and people who will abuse others given the chance.

The incident Charlotte described was in the 80's (and nothing to do with belly dance or dancers whatsoever, FWIW). I would not blame her for a minute if she did not heap more trauma on herself by reporting it, but do we know that it would have been brushed over by a misogynistic legal system? Or would they have been punished and shamed and had the crap kicked out of them on the way like the incident Tarik described? I don't know.

I also don't know that you get any thing but a over-generalised picture with a dose of orientalism by mixing up Egyptian attitudes to Western women, attitudes to belly dancers, attitudes to rapists, and establishment views and uses of rape and abuse.
 
Last edited:

gisela

Super Moderator
This young girl was not prepaired to handel the fact that these dangers exist. So let me say it now, no woman or girl should EVER allow herself to be in a situation where she is outnumbered by a group of men, especially strange men. We now warn girls of the dangers of getting drunk in situations where there are large numbers of men and drugs and alchohol are readily available. This scenario is no different. The issue here is not blame the victim, but be aware of the potential dangers so you don't BECOME A VICTIM.

But, she was not raped by the two men. We don't know who those two men were but in the article she writes that they also were on holiday in Cairo. If those men were not Egyptian or from the ME it's likely that they would also not be aware of these cultural rules. She might even have known them well enough, to feel that they would be a protection for her, as opposed to going out alone.
 

Sophia Maria

New member
Being a rapists here is a huge stigma and will destroy the rapists life. Period.

Really? Is it? This guy below seems to be popular here with us Americans. He is one of the best selling mainstream rappers of all time. He has been charged with rape, and still seems to win awards, go platinum, and be played at most parties I've ever been to. NOTE: He was cleared of all charges back in the 90's. My point is, he was charged with rape, sodomy, and sexual abuse, and likes to rap about it, and people still think he's a pretty cool guy.
DMX - X Is Coming (lyrics) - YouTube

Rape is a problem in ALL societies.

At the same time,
Ariadne said:
It does not matter if she (or any other woman) made herself vulnerable! It is WRONG and ANY culture that excuses that behavior is as well.

Absolutely. I couldn't have said it better myself. I just want to make it clear that our culture makes excuses for it, too. Rape is excused in our culture, too--because of the exact myth you just refuted above.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
But, she was not raped by the two men. We don't know who those two men were but in the article she writes that they also were on holiday in Cairo. If those men were not Egyptian or from the ME it's likely that they would also not be aware of these cultural rules. She might even have known them well enough, to feel that they would be a protection for her, as opposed to going out alone.

The fact that those particular guys didn't violate her is not really the point. The point is that its not a good idea for a woman to allowe herself to be in a situation where A: she is outnumbered and B: isolated in a building, apartment, hotel room. Its just safety 101 if you are a woman. She made a mistake and she was taken advantage of because of it. This is what preditors do. They wait for opportunities to exploit. Also key in this story is that all of the attackers were NOT Arab. One of the rapists was Japanese. The only thing is that he stopped because her pleas made him feel uneasy, but that doesn't change the fact that he was up for it in the first place and participated. My whole point is that violence against women can and does happen EVERYWHERE. Focusing on Egypt alone is doing a disservice. Women have to be aware hat no matter where they are, there is a potential danger of attack and abuse and they need to know this so they can avoid a problem. Unfortunately the writer of the article didn't have that knowledge.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Really? Is it? This guy below seems to be popular here with us Americans. He is one of the best selling mainstream rappers of all time. He has been charged with rape, and still seems to win awards, go platinum, and be played at most parties I've ever been to. NOTE: He was cleared of all charges back in the 90's. My point is, he was charged with rape, sodomy, and sexual abuse, and likes to rap about it, and people still think he's a pretty cool guy.
DMX - X Is Coming (lyrics) - YouTube

Rape is a problem in ALL societies.

At the same time,


Absolutely. I couldn't have said it better myself. I just want to make it clear that our culture makes excuses for it, too. Rape is excused in our culture, too--because of the exact myth you just refuted above.

Exactly! there are far too many instances where women have been dragged through the mud in court and the attacker let off. Quite often if the accused is of a higher social status, prominant in the community and can afford the best lawers etc they get off. This is one of the reasons why so many women are loath to come forward. Quite often they get treated like crap by the police and then get slandered on the witness stand in court. Once again I mention the epidemic of rape in our military and howrare it is that those female victims receive justice.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
Really? Is it? This guy below seems to be popular here with us Americans. He is one of the best selling mainstream rappers of all time.

As you said Sophia he was cleared of all charges. There have been enough false charges against public figures that if he was found to be innocent he should be able to go on with his life without any stigma.

(Not to say I like his "music"... ick... but that's another subject.)

webpages have loads of photos of policemen grabbing women's breasts
Which ones? I did a search and all I found was pictures of them being restrained.

and there is this article by an american academic
David Graeber: New Police Strategy in New York

Whoever has a little info about US movements knows the story...

There is a lot of crap that has come out of the Occupy movements so I had to read your article and then look up the information surrounding it.

The author is one of the leaders of the New Occupy movement. Not only isn't it non-violent as he claims in the article he himself is an anarchist. Why does that matter? Because they have given out literature to the protesters on not only how to successfully be violent and get away with it but how to act in a way that will look as poor as possible for the police dealing with them, to slander them.

Considering that I have a hard time taking his article seriously since there were no claims before he wrote it of this ever happening. There was however charges of women being sexually assaulted in the Occupy camp and being pressured not to tell anyone. (Cover up through misdirection?) He himself says in the article he has no proof and then goes on to talk about how he believes it's on purpose, his opinion on an incident that he cannot prove happened. In other words there is no policy that we know of for the police to rape protesters.


(A leapord never changes its spots I see....Sarcasm ignored). And I suppose the fact that a lot of the women, Egyptian women, who have been assaulted in this way, were #1: veiled, #2: escorted either by their husbands or a male relative means they condoned having their sisters and wives violated in public.
I don't even know what you mean by that and by ignoring the sarcasm you miss the point. There is no difference between insinuating that women are partly responsible for what happens to them because they weren't cautious enough and the people who are claiming that women should cover up and never go in public unescorted or what happens to them is their fault. You just said that it made no difference to the "sisters and wives" so why should the rest of it either.


No one is making excuses, but you can't condemn a whole society for the atrocities commited by a few sociopaths....
It is absolutely an excuse. No culture is perfect. One cultures flaws does not excuse anothers. When the culture in question has no consequences for those psychopaths and encourages men to look down on women as less then them it is fully culpable for the results. Plus what you described above,
"A major part of the problem was the police force and guess what? Not only were they guilty of not enforcing the laws, but many times violating it as well. And just for the record, male rape was one of the weapons they used to keep people in check. Blaming a whole society for their actions is not justified. I would however blame the past regime for encouraging, participating in and turning a blind eye to lawlessness. They are the ones responsible for this moral degeneration. When I first went to Egypt in the '80's such things were unheard of. If a woman was molested in public and caught, THE MEN would beat the crap out of him and take him to the police themselves. I know because I have seen it happen."
is called a cultural shift. It happens all the time in all countries. Whatever the reason is (and you may have provided one of many explanations) there has been a shift in Egypt itself and it is not sudden or new. What was already happening in private has now become public. However we were not speaking solely of Egypt no matter what your own personal focus is, we were speaking of the countries (plural) where BD comes from. These are cultures with a rich history and some wonderful things in them that are to be loved and cherished. That does not excuse the parts that are not lovely or good.

PS. No one mentioned Islam either until your post #37.
 

gisela

Super Moderator
The point is that its not a good idea for a woman to allowe herself to be in a situation where A: she is outnumbered and B: isolated in a building, apartment, hotel room. Its just safety 101 if you are a woman. She made a mistake and she was taken advantage of because of it.

I hope I am not understanding this correctly because this "101" would make it absolutely impossible to lead any kind of life. I am not a daredevil and I do take care but I could not imagine living under these conditions. Perhaps I just live in a safer environment than you do.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Really? Is it? This guy below seems to be popular here with us Americans. He is one of the best selling mainstream rappers of all time. He has been charged with rape, and still seems to win awards, go platinum, and be played at most parties I've ever been to. NOTE: He was cleared of all charges back in the 90's. My point is, he was charged with rape, sodomy, and sexual abuse, and likes to rap about it, and people still think he's a pretty cool guy.
DMX - X Is Coming (lyrics) - YouTube

Rape is a problem in ALL societies.

At the same time,


Absolutely. I couldn't have said it better myself. I just want to make it clear that our culture makes excuses for it, too. Rape is excused in our culture, too--because of the exact myth you just refuted above.

Absolutely. The problem I have with the last quote is the automatic assumption that this kind of behavior is condoned by that society. Just because a problem exists in a society, does not mean that it is condoned by that society. It isn't and as the article I linked to shows, since there is no police force any more, Egyptian men are stepping up to try and address the situation. To me that isn't a culture that condones rape.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Does American culture/society condone rape?

As this article points out, there is an epidemic of sexual violence against women in the United States. As stated in the second article, New York City saw a substantial increase in the numbers of reported rapes in 2011

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-women-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html

Murder Down, Rape Up in 2011 New York City - New York - News - Runnin' Scared

Lets not be so quick to bash other peoples and cultures when we ourselves suffer from the same social diseases.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
You're trying to excuse it again because other countries aren't perfect either.

Absolutely. The problem I have with the last quote is the automatic assumption that this kind of behavior is condoned by that society. Just because a problem exists in a society, does not mean that it is condoned by that society. It isn't and as the article I linked to shows, since there is no police force any more, Egyptian men are stepping up to try and address the situation. To me that isn't a culture that condones rape.
I finally went and read the article and I didn't actually see it adding anything new. The third paragraph you use to back up your point is followed by this:
The verbal and physical abuse towards women somehow have increased. Currently there is a group that seeks to defend women and prevent abuse in Tahrir, although we all hope that many more people will join them to give an end to these events.

And the men who grope women are punished by civilians furious to this baseness.
Really? Then why did I read an article written by an Egyptian women who was so tired of being fondled in public that she dragged the offender to the police. Not only didn't any civilians do anything to help her, they acted as if she was the one who was being uncivil, and the police refused to charge him. I hope that there will be more then a group in the future too but a single group does not an entire culture make until the general populace backs them up.

Her conclusion?
The point is that since I arrived here similar things happened always but never in the extent that they are happening now.

Then her next ten paragraphs are all about how foreign women are viewed as sexually available and dancers are considered shameful, the same things we were discussing at the beginning of the thread.

These are things that can and should be discussed.
 
Last edited:

Ariadne

Well-known member
Tarik, if you want to start a thread about the terrible situation where rape is concerned in the US I will be happy to dissect and condemn it with you but trying to use it to squash discussion of the subject of this thread is disingenuous at best.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
You're trying to excuse it again because other countries aren't perfect either.

I am not making excuses. I'm simply pointing out that it is not a problem limited to Egypt alone and offer some explanation as to why this is occuring now when it didn't happen before. Something has CHANGED, because this sort of thing never happened before.

What is happening is wrong on every count. The issue is not to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that this is only a problem in Egypt. We need to be aware that this is a problem everywhere and that like other societies, this also happens in Egypt, therefore, we need to be aware of the problem and take measures to keep ourselves safe, whether we are in Latin America, the USA or Egypt.
 

Shanazel

Moderator
I was part of that discussion and the frustration there was the inability/unwillingness of certain individuals to acknowledge Israel's abuses.
I was part of that discussion, too. The frustration may’ve come partially from the above but the larger part came from the flouncers’ insistence that Israel Pure Evil as was everyone who refused to agree that the state was Nazism in action and should be destroyed. There was no saying, “yeah, that particular action sucked but that doesn’t make all Israelis evil.” The flouncers insisted that anyone not in complete agreement with their contentions supported Israeli actions against the Palestinians. Heck, I took flack just for insisting that NicNac had a right to a dissenting opinion re: average Israeli soldiers based on her own experiences.

Why is Islam/ Muslims being singled out?
Read carefully: Because belly dance arose from their culture. Would we include Muslim attitudes in a discussion about Chassidic attitudes toward women’s dance in Chassidic culture? Nope. Strawman.

when I first went there, you never heard of anything like this happening
Egypt has never exactly been a land of good will toward all. When I was in the seventh grade (1967-68) my best friend’s family moved to California from Egypt because of serious physical, social and economic actions taken against Christians in that country. Her mother told me, “It was a very dangerous place and we couldn’t raise our daughters there.”

Once again this is not justifying what happened.But

The issue here is not blame the victim, but be aware of the potential dangers so you don't BECOME A VICTIM.

No sweetie, he was racially profiled and accausted by the person who killed him. A very big difference between innocently walking to a store and putting yourself in a situation where two men had the potential power to take advantage of you.

No, sweetie, he can’t be innocent while she is guilty of putting herself in a bad situation. Either he stupidly put himself in danger by walking through an upscale neighborhood dressed in a manner likely to lead to racial profiling; she stupidly put herself in danger by going someplace with strangers OR he innocently entered a store and was killed and she innocently trusted two guys who seemed like average joes and was raped.
I’m curious (and truly not being snarky here) if I was killed while walking through your old neighborhood dressed in my jeans, cowboy boots and sporting my blond braid, would it be because I innocently walked into a neighborhood or because a white gal should’ve known better than to be there in the first place? Is violence by blacks against whites/ Hispanics/ Indians/Chinese racial profiling and racism? One of the hot points in the Israel discussion was the contention by the flouncers that minorities could not be racist but were politically justified in their attitudes toward the majority races.

no woman or girl should EVER allow herself to be in a situation where she is outnumbered by a group of men, especially strange men.

Um, so by correlation, no black man should ever allow himself to be in a situation where he is outnumbered by a group of white guys, especially strange white guys.

Yeah, right. I worked in a field that was 99% male for the first two decades I worked. Any idea how I could’ve avoided the company of strange men (“and remember- all men are strange as hell”) any more than a black man can avoid the company of white men?

She made a mistake and she was taken advantage of because of it. This is what preditors do. They wait for opportunities to exploit.

He made a mistake and he was killed because of it. This is what preditors do. They wait for opportunities to exploit.

Lord, I love to get into these discussions with you, Tarik. We gotta have coffee someday.
 
Last edited:

Tarik Sultan

New member
I hope I am not understanding this correctly because this "101" would make it absolutely impossible to lead any kind of life. I am not a daredevil and I do take care but I could not imagine living under these conditions. Perhaps I just live in a safer environment than you do.

Perhas you do and that's a good thing. But for the rest of us, we don't have that luxury. We know that there is the potential for tragedy in certain situations. In your society going back to a flat with a few guys you hardly know may not be a problem, but not all men come from your society, nor are most societies as safe as yours. What I'm saying is that you have to be aware of the potential dangers that exist. Just because your environment may be relatively safe does not mean that other societies enjoy the same level of security. So my advise to you, is that if you are traveling anywhere outside your own society, be aware of the cultural norms and crime statistics and never allow yourself to be alone in an isolated area with men you don't know. Don't go back to their flats, don't go to their hotel rooms, avoid large crowds of young men and boys especially if they are loud and bousterous and there is alchohol being consumed, don't allow yourself to get drunk around large groups of men if you do not have family and friends with you who can protect you if you should find yourself incapacitated in some way.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
I was part of that discussion and the frustration there was the inability/unwillingness of certain individuals to acknowledge Israel's abuses.
I was part of that discussion, too. The frustration may’ve come partially from the above but the larger part came from the flouncers’ insistence that Israel Pure Evil as was everyone who refused to agree that the state was Nazism in action and should be destroyed. There was no saying, “yeah, that particular action sucked but that doesn’t make all Israelis evil.” The flouncers insisted that anyone not in complete agreement with their contentions supported Israeli actions against the Palestinians. Heck, I took flack just for insisting that NicNac had a right to a dissenting opinion re: average Israeli soldiers based on her own experiences.

I for one stated that I believed that although the formation of the state was not handeled in a very wise manner, the fact is that now you have a situation where people have been born and raised there and sending them "somewhere else" is not a realistic or viable option.

Why is Islam/ Muslims being singled out?
Read carefully: Because belly dance arose from their culture. Would we include Muslim attitudes in a discussion about Chassidic attitudes toward women’s dance in Chassidic culture? Nope. Strawman.

Read carefully: #1: this attitude isn't limmited to belly dance alone but any type of dancing. #2: The dominant religion before Islam was christianity and Coptic Christians have the same opinions regarding the dance and dancers as muslims do. So why are we singling Muslims out I ask once again. These attitudes regarding the social role of women PREDATE Islam and are shared by other religious groups as well. Jews are also native to many of the araes where this dance is performed and their attitudes with regards to the status of women and their feelings about public performance were exactly the same. The point that I am trying to show here is that these attitudes were not created by Islam, Islam only reflects attitudes that had always existed in these societies with regards to the social role of women and the role they play in public life. Not a strawman argment at all[/COLOR]

when I first went there, you never heard of anything like this happening
Egypt has never exactly been a land of good will toward all. When I was in the seventh grade (1967-68) my best friend’s family moved to California from Egypt because of serious physical, social and economic actions taken against Christians in that country. Her mother told me, “It was a very dangerous place and we couldn’t raise our daughters there.”

I guessed you missed the part where I stated that Egypt was not Disney Land.... Egypt is a society just like every other and that means it has its admirable qualities, but it also has some very real flaws. My point is don't run off to any place in the world wearing rose colored glasses. Be aware and keep your wits about you.

Once again this is not justifying what happened.But

The issue here is not blame the victim, but be aware of the potential dangers so you don't BECOME A VICTIM.

No sweetie, he was racially profiled and accausted by the person who killed him. A very big difference between innocently walking to a store and putting yourself in a situation where two men had the potential power to take advantage of you.

No, sweetie, he can’t be innocent while she is guilty of putting herself in a bad situation. Either he stupidly put himself in danger by walking through an upscale neighborhood dressed in a manner likely to lead to racial profiling; she stupidly put herself in danger by going someplace with strangers

She made a mistake. Doesn't mean that she deserved what happened. He was not killed because he was weraing a hoodie, he was killed because an indivdual perceived him as a threat because of the color of his skin. Unlike the first victim, there was nowhere this young man could go and not be perceived as black/a treat by someone with racist tendancies. This is why my advise to young men of color is to be aware of the potential danger. Do not confront police or become beligerant. Even undr the best of circumstances, no matter how well you speak, dress, act, racist violence will find you if you cross the path of a racist sociopath. Its not as simple as not going to cretain locals

OR
he innocently entered a store and was killed and she innocently trusted two guys who seemed like average joes and was raped.


What they both have in common is that they were victimized in a way that they didn't deserve. I don't know what Trevon could have done to protect himself, but I do know that even as a man, traveling in a country where I don't know the language, lay of the land, I never went anywhere with anyone if I didn't know them well. Maybe rape wasn't my concern, but robbery, kidnapping etc was. I ain't going nowhere with nobody I don't know period!

I’m curious (and truly not being snarky here) if I was killed while walking through your old neighborhood dressed in my jeans, cowboy boots and sporting my blond braid, would it be because I innocently walked into a neighborhood or because a white gal should’ve known better than to be there in the first place?

well, considering the fact that whites have always lived there as well and that many of the Latinos are just as white as you are, no. But if you were walking around there at night, flashing cash... I'd say that was extreemly unwise since its something that not even the locals would do. If you were coming to meet me, I'd meet you at the train if it were night and walked you back because that is what we all did if we had guests coming over.

Is violence by blacks against whites/ Hispanics/ Indians/Chinese racial profiling and racism?

If they perpetrated a crime against someone who happened to be white or a different race, no, that isn't profiling. But if they attack the person BECAUSE of their race, then that is profiling

One of the hot points in the Israel discussion was the contention by the flouncers that minorities could not be racist but were politically justified in their attitudes toward the majority races.


Racism is a disease it can be contagious. However, there is a big difference between one group having a disproportionate amount of wealth and firepower, the ability to limit the access of transportation and livelihood and another group retaliating because they are constantly being violated. Do I think killing is the solution, no I don't. But when they are given no viable options to solve the situation, I can understand why they resort to those measures, even if I disagree with it.

no woman or girl should EVER allow herself to be in a situation where she is outnumbered by a group of men, especially strange men.

Um, so by correlation, no black man should ever allow himself to be in a situation where he is outnumbered by a group of white guys, especially strange white guys.

As a person of color, if I see a group of loud drunk white guys, you bet your sweet ass I'm not going over there. If I'm on the train and a group of drunk frat boys gets on, if there are not other people in the car, just me and them HELL NO I AIN'T STAYING THERE. By the same token if a group of loud thugish guys gets on he train, I leave as well. I try to avoid situations in which I can be a potential victim.

Yeah, right. I worked in a field that was 99% male for the first two decades I worked. Any idea how I could’ve avoided the company of strange men (“and remember- all men are strange as hell”) any more than a black man can avoid the company of white men?

Yes love, but as strange as they were, you knew them and you didn't go back home with a bunch of them you being the only woman did you? The point is that you were in your element so to speak and that gives you a leg up, (pun really not intended)

She made a mistake and she was taken advantage of because of it. This is what preditors do. They wait for opportunities to exploit.

He made a mistake and he was killed because of it. This is what preditors do. They wait for opportunities to exploit.

Exactly. But in his case there was no escape. He found himself in a serious no win situation. It in no way lessens what happened to the lady in Cairo. All suffering is equal.

Lord, I love to get into these discussions with you, Tarik. We gotta have coffee someday.

If yu think I'm bad now, you really don't want to see me tweeking on caffine. I'll just have water thanks.
 

Shanazel

Moderator
Forget the coffee then. I'm a tea drinker myself. Non-sweet with lots of ice, please.

Yes love, but as strange as they were, you knew them and you didn't go back home with a bunch of them you being the only woman did you? The point is that you were in your element so to speak and that gives you a leg up, (pun really not intended)

Love, you really should ask questions rather than make assumptions. ;) I did not know those men; they were co-workers, not friends and we had no acquaintances in common. Many times we'd head out to the back of beyond to hunt for raptor nests on the very first day of work, strangers all. No way to avoid being alone with unfamiliar guys except to turn down the jobs I both wanted and was qualified for.

He was not killed because he was weraing a hoodie, he was killed because an indivdual perceived him as a threat because of the color of his skin. Unlike the first victim, there was nowhere this young man could go and not be perceived as black/a treat by someone with racist tendancies.

Why, son, iff'n y'all jest stayed on your side a town wouldn't be no problems atall. :cool: She was raped because two individuals perceived her as fair game because of her gender. There is nowhere a woman can go and not be perceived as fair game by someone with rapist tendencies.

But in his case there was no escape. He found himself in a serious no win situation.

And she could've escaped and was in a win-win situation?

The point is, crimes committed because of racism are not somehow worse or less avoidable than crimes committed because of homophobia, pedaphelia, misogeny or just plain meaness. Dead is dead, no matter who killed you or why.

Years ago, a couple of thugs murdered a young man in Laramie. The same week, a thug raped an eight year old girl to death at the other end of the state. The young man's death became a cause celebre throughout the whole damned world while no one out of the state heard about the little girl. When someone pointed out the imbalance of this attitude, someone else responded, "He was killed because he was a gay male. She wasn't killed because she was a little girl."

Well, in point of fact, she was killed because she was a little girl- pedophiles generally don't go after gay males. But people actually thought that being killed for being gay was somehow different and more publicity worthy than being killed for being a child.

And therein lies my objection for separating out racism or sexual preference or anything else as a more serious reason to be concerned about murder, rape, etc. It is also my objection to bringing up any version of "well, he/she put him/herself in the position." Even all the disclaimers, that statement suggests that the victim was somehow at fault. I do not accept that, not for the young man in Florida, the young woman in Egypt, or the child in Wyoming.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
I am not making excuses. I'm simply pointing out that it is not a problem limited to Egypt alone and offer some explanation as to why this is occuring now when it didn't happen before. Something has CHANGED, because this sort of thing never happened before.

What is happening is wrong on every count. The issue is not to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that this is only a problem in Egypt. We need to be aware that this is a problem everywhere and that like other societies, this also happens in Egypt, therefore, we need to be aware of the problem and take measures to keep ourselves safe, whether we are in Latin America, the USA or Egypt.

Ok, I getcha. Being careful is good advice for anyone in an unfamiliar situation. That does not change the fact that just because the same crime occurs in more then one country it does not mean that every country handles/reacts to that crime in the same way. That is what you seem to be missing completely.

You say these things didn't happen before but according to the articles I have read by women who have both lived in and visited Egypt (and other such countries) these things have happened before and have been happening for a very long time. According to them what has changed is that women are speaking out publicly about it and the recent acceleration of these activities has been bringing them out, sometimes literally, into the public. That's it. Considering almost every time someone speaks out about an occurrence like this in an English publication it is accompanied by an explanation of how we need to understand their culture and why the perpetrators would think they way they do your insistence that it has nothing to do with culture falls more then a little flat.

I can't believe I need to say this but is it possible the reason your impression of the culture has been different then all these women who have had these experiences is because... you're not a woman? That and the people you have stayed with are just really nice people? It is a common reaction for people to believe that a certain prejudice or attitude does not exist simply because they have not experienced it personally themselves. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
 
Last edited:

Ariadne

Well-known member
And therein lies my objection for separating out racism or sexual preference or anything else as a more serious reason to be concerned about murder, rape, etc. It is also my objection to bringing up any version of "well, he/she put him/herself in the position." Even all the disclaimers, that statement suggests that the victim was somehow at fault. I do not accept that, not for the young man in Florida, the young woman in Egypt, or the child in Wyoming.

Bravo! :clap:
 

Sophia Maria

New member
Then her next ten paragraphs are all about how foreign women are viewed as sexually available and dancers are considered shameful, the same things we were discussing at the beginning of the thread.

These are things that can and should be discussed.

I have to say, going back to the original question in this thread, I've always wondered how foreign women manage to move to Egypt and make it work. I know that sometimes dancers like Dina or Randa have had difficulties in their home country, and I imagine it's even more difficult for non-Egyptians. Which foreigners dance in Egypt these days? I can think of Joanna Sahirah, Aleya...

Actually, I just went to check out Aleya's blog. Here's a link to one of her posts: The Beginning of the End January 25, 2011 from my perspective | Aleya In Cairo Bellydance Blog
 
Top