Sadness of Reality

[Ariadne]

Apples and Oranges. You're talking about social dance and Farasha is talking about performance dance. Traditionally it was shameful for Muslim women to perform in public or for pay so it was something done by non-muslims or slaves. Even today we have problem getting support from natives for teaching the culture behind bellydance because said people don't want their names attached to something they consider inappropriate. It's not the western culture influencing them when you can show such a long lasting attitude originating long before colonialism came into the picture. The only exceptions to that I know of are Turkey and Algeria but since most of the publicity came out of Egypt it doesn't really impact the dance on a whole.

 

[beginnerbellydance]

I guess it's because I'm jewish israeli and not muslim then.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

That is a strong possibility. Do you live in Israel? Attitudes there may be very different than in the rest of the Middle East, at least in the non-Palestinian areas.

 

[Shanazel]

No, that's not what I meant. I think when I read was that before the westernization of the middle east belly dancing was considered more of an art form than it is now...in the west it is strip dancing.

Woh, I am still not following you. Belly dance was considered stripping in the west which then influenced the ME to consider it stripping as well? :think:

 

[Tarik Sultan]

No that's not true at all...that's more of a western opinion. I'm from the middle east, and people would do belly dance in class in my school out of no where and we learned folkloric dancing in school. Also I knew many girls who did dancing in their spare time.

You are not understanding that there is a HUGE difference between dancing with your friends and family in private in your regular clothes FOR FUN and getting paid to perform in public, in a revealing outfit, infront of strangers, especially male strangers. That is where the problem is. At home, no problem. But getting PAID to do it was never seen as an art and it isn't now. Being paid to dance always carried the assumption that you were from a very poor background, uneducated etc. A good woman from a good family, traditionally was one who was able to find a husband with a good enough profession so that she didn't have to go outside the home to work. Being a dancer was considered primarily work, but very low status work, even though the 20th century saw many dancers who received very high incomes.
Its kind of like you can make a lot of money selling drugs, but it is considered very low status and no matter how much money you make, you'd still be considered a low-life.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Yes, but the same rules apply to Christians and Jews as well. During the Islamic period non muslims would be recruited from the lowest rungs of society because being non muslims, they had lower status in society. However, no christian or Jew who could help it would ever allow their daughters to become public performers. The same social values were shared by everyone.

Actually, it should be mentioned that the attitude against public performers pre dates the advent of Judaism, christianity and Islam. In Ancient Egypt performers were always of humble origin, slaves or servants. In Ancient Greece and later Rome, the same attitude applied. In Greece, good women only left the house when they were going to their husbands home to be married and when they died. If they were high class and they really had to go out, they had to be totally veiled and escorted by a slave. And of course in Rome, even they popular gladiators were either slaves, convicts or very poor. They were totally on the bottom of society. We could also make similar comparisons in India and China as well. The religions changed, but the attitudes didn't.

Apples and Oranges. You're talking about social dance and Farasha is talking about performance dance. Traditionally it was shameful for Muslim women to perform in public or for pay so it was something done by non-muslims or slaves. Even today we have problem getting support from natives for teaching the culture behind bellydance because said people don't want their names attached to something they consider inappropriate. It's not the western culture influencing them when you can show such a long lasting attitude originating long before colonialism came into the picture. The only exceptions to that I know of are Turkey and Algeria but since most of the publicity came out of Egypt it doesn't really impact the dance on a whole.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I guess it's because I'm jewish israeli and not muslim then.

Although Israel is technically a Middle Eastern country, in a lot of ways it is a secular westernized society. If you were from an orthodox background being a public dancer would not be tolerated.

 

[Meera]

Reading the article in the orginal post is deffintly horrifying. I have to say although I know many good Arab and I really do admire Arab culture but I have had some very uncomfortable expierences with Arab men. I remember once going into a Turkish resturant with my guy friend, and there was a Gulf Arab family sitting across from us, when one of the men saw he actually rose his hand so he couldn't look at me and to this day I don't know why, we were in the United States so there are a bunch of unveiled women around, so I really can't figure out why he did it. I was in a sweater and jeans, nothing very relieving. Also one time I became friends with an Egyptian man, things were okay for a while and we just talked normally but then after a while he started sending me graphic text messages and started following me eveywhere. I ignored him and it finally stopped. I know I shouldn't really talk, because India is famous for it's "eve teasing" but honestly I have hardly ever exprenced it India and if you are firm about it and make a scene they usueally stop. Although it might be a lot worse in other Indian states.

Sorry if this is off topic, but I have read alot about Egyptian women and bellydancers in Egypt. But I was really curious about Turkey? I know Turkey is secular, but do they throw western belly dancers out of a apartments and do Turkish people look badly on their own dancers like Didem? I love Turkish music and serials and I know they show a lot of "racy" things in those, much more than in Egyptian music videos and serials. So that's why I was wondering, does Turkey have the same views on Belly dance?

 

[Amulya]

I think some people have the same views in Turkey but it seems that society has a bigger gap in the way of traditional vs modern, religious vs non religious people, so maybe you can see more differences in opinion there? Not so sure, I bet someone else can enlighten this

 

[Meera]

I think some people have the same views in Turkey but it seems that society has a bigger gap in the way of traditional vs modern, religious vs non religious people, so maybe you can see more differences in opinion there? Not so sure, I bet someone else can enlighten this

Yeah, thats whyI was wondering, the cities seem super modernized but I wonder if they still look at belly dancing as immoral, But many people in the united states see as inmoral too, so I gues its not that diffirent

 

[Amulya]

Very true! I have a Turkish friend, I could ask her but she has never been in Turkey so not sure how accurate her answer would be!

 

[Ariadne]

According to what I have read BD in Turkey developed a bad reputation for quite some time because at some point during the last century (no idea when) it became standard for dancers in the cabarets there to strip as part of their performance. Bellydancing nearly died out there and it took dancers like Didem to bring it back into respectability. I suspect it's reputation in Turkey can be rather complicated as a result though.

 

[Meera]

According to what I have read BD in Turkey developed a bad reputation for quite some time because at some point during the last century (no idea when) it became standard for dancers in the cabarets there to strip as part of their performance. Bellydancing nearly died out there and it took dancers like Didem to bring it back into respectability. I suspect it's reputation in Turkey can be rather complicated as a result though.

Oh thanks for the info. I heard that a lot of Turkish nightclubs have Belly dancers, maybe thats where the stripping came from? I was just curious about this because Turkish cities seem pretty liberal (compared to Egypt-although this just by what I heard). Also at the Turkish resturant I go to there is huge TV's playing Turkish tv channels and their some shows that show Belly dancers. I guess it is a very complicated issue.

 

[Amulya]

Ariadne, I think it was and is also the tourism, lots of really tacky bad dancers dance in tourist places. If you see the clips on YouTube it's cringe-worthy the costumes in the 90s might also have added, yuk! You could see complete bums sticking out!

 

[Greek Bonfire]

According to what I have read BD in Turkey developed a bad reputation for quite some time because at some point during the last century (no idea when) it became standard for dancers in the cabarets there to strip as part of their performance. Bellydancing nearly died out there and it took dancers like Didem to bring it back into respectability. I suspect it's reputation in Turkey can be rather complicated as a result though.

At least Didem knows how to dance. Prior to this, however, the requirement for bellydancers in Turkey was not necessarily to know the dance but to be willing to strip and then be prostitutes afterwards. This was the thinking for a very long time - I hope it has changed as we speak today.

 

[Ariadne]

I hope it has changed as we speak today.

So do I.

 

[Imeera]

First I have to admit I found it too hard to actually read the article and I am not in any way saying that any of you are focusing only on the bad side, its great to discuss it!

Saying that though I would like to say that yes of course there is a dark side to belly dance and dancers. Of course there is, culture is a vicious thing sometimes and we all know it, its there in ours and in any culture; not just the Arab world. But the only way culture will change is if more dancers preform and are do not conform to the darker side of what this culture has made it.

And its not just the men at fault in this either. The West (both male and female) does not help as you have said and those doing the harm are oblivious to it, but neither do women who hold the same values as these men. I am not sure if any of you have mentioned it but it is much the fault of women who hold these values as the men who do. While it is not the victims fault in any way, these women will believe it is the victims fault that it happened and say as much. These women will teach their sons and daughters that dancers are of low morals just as the men teach their children. It comes from both sides, maybe mens more than womens but I do not know.

As culture and views change this is bound to happen. This happened here in the West too but its pretty much over now and has been for a long long time but it happened and I am sure if you think you can come up with examples. Its like two worlds collide, all we can do is protect and help these women all we can. However we can not dwell on this darker side, acknowledge its existence yes but there is a bad side to everything; from the food you eat, the sofa you sit on and the power you use to have whatever you're using to access this website but we just have to live and do what we can and find the joy in the good things. Even if we have to see and confront the bad side too ^^

 

[Morocco]

I'm not going to try & quote/ counter all the speculations, some valid, some fallacy in the myriad preceding posts.

The bottom line is that Raqs (whether Sharqi or Shaabi/Beldi) is/ was a *folk* (of the non-line & circle variety) & social dance of both sexes in those areas where it was/ is indigenous. That means they did it for fun. Folks do *real* folk dances for fun. It's just that the real thing mostly occurred in homes or at family/ local celebrations.

It was/is not indigenous to every Arabic, Turkic or Farsi-speaking (or Muslim) area.

When/ where men & women didn't "mix" socially, even within the family, women danced with women for FUN - not as any "ritual", *men likewise*, but the men always had more outside social mobility & didn't have to worry about their reputations.

Where, within the family, men & women mixed more, they did whatever dances were popular ... now it's a form of what they think is Hip-Hop. Whoopee-do!

Where there is a stigma, it concerns women dancing in PUBLIC, for audiences containing stranger/ non-mahram men. THAT is the social/ cultural situation "Over There", with varying degrees of stigma in various eras & areas.

FWIW, it also used to be the situation HERE - that professional dancers of ANY dance form were "easy" - & not so long ago – when I started doing professional Flamenco, before I ever got into Oriental & for a long time afterwards ......

ALL professional dance, including so-called "classical" ballet, was considered like that in the West. There are still Baptist & other churches in the US, where ANY dancing is considered a sin. I go into this is my book.

The zeitgeist "Over There" is that of this so-called "religious conservatism", paid for for many years now by Saudi Arabia (Sunna) & Iran (Shi'a) - not by Obama or the US gov't.

Public harrassment of women *in general" "Over There" & an increase in misogynistic behavior & attacks against even fully veiled women (let's not even begin to go into the horrors in India & Pakistan & Afghanistan!!!) had gotten so bad that there were several articles about it in Egyptian newspapers before the revolution of 2 years ago in Medan Tahrir.

"Analysts" have speculated that it might be because of longterm economic frustration/ lack of work that the men had to deal with, but a lot of it is ingrained cultural misogyny that is "learned" from the cradle. We can not sit here on our high horses & pontificate that "the men should know better" because this culture "Here" might have gotten a bit beyond that (though it really hasn't come all that far from it as yet...)

As to the current situation in Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood is the Muslim Brotherhood is the Muslim Brotherhood. They are & always have been radical, with a very conservative agenda & NOT typical "every day" Muslims - THAT is why previous regimes from Farouk onward suppressed them. They simply learned how to take it underground & were the only group that was organized, experienced & disciplined enough to strategize & win the election. I do NOT understand why many Egyptians thought Morsy would be different because he spoke softly, intelligently & wasn't an obvious firebrand like his colleague that they eliminated from running for presidency.

I am NOT surprised at what is happening, but I *am* devastated by it.

All of that notwithstanding, that does NOT take away from the fact that Raqs Sharqi is a FUN, fabulous, beautiful folk/ social & performance dance form & should NOT be stopped/ denied/ curtailed in those places where it is still possible to dance. Like here.

Just because pseudo-religious sickos ban ALL dance & singing by women in several places or act like a**es in front of women does NOT mean we have to stop dancing "Over Here" or change OUR love for these dances, dances which were here in one form or another before ALL these awful occurrences & have nothing to do with them

I agree with Imeera in that: “all we can do is protect and help these women all we can. However we can not dwell on this darker side, acknowledge its existence yes but there is a bad side to everything; from the food you eat, the sofa you sit on and the power you use to have whatever you're using to access this website but we just have to live and do what we can and find the joy in the good things. Even if we have to see and confront the bad side too”