Is ATS . . . boring?

[Yame]

This is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

I do find ATS performances extremely boring. Due to the nature of the dance (group improvisation), both the movement repertoire and range of expression are extremely limited. I find that these things combined make for performances that do not engage me. I've never seen an ATS performance I actually enjoyed.

With that said, some people like it. And some people find what I do to be boring. You can't please everyone...

And also, I can see how doing ATS can be a lot of fun, and if the classes focus on drills and learning movements any beginner can certainly get something out of it. This is one thing I really like about a ATS and Tribal Fusion philosophy. I get the impression that they put a lot of focus on drilling and learning the movements, and sometimes Oriental teachers don't put enough focus on that, assuming you'll "get it" just by dancing. Which works, but doesn't achieve the same movement quality as diligent correct practice.

All that being said though, I don't quite understand what's limiting you. If ATS isn't in your heart, why do it when you live in a city where the possibilities are endless? Why not just take classes in the styles you enjoy watching?

 

[ana_bat]

Warning, The following is the opinion of a very jaded ATS dancer who is ready to leave their troupe.

I've wrestled with this thought as well recently. Whether or not some one finds ATS boring or entertaining is left mostly to that individual's tastes and what they find engaging. But myself being a member of an ATS troupe, and personally finding that I'm having a dull time in ATS has left me with a head scratcher as to why I'm bored while I dance ATS.

For one, I think there is a huge lack in musicality in ATS. I'm speaking from my own experiences in my troupe, but I feel like no one aside from the teacher knows how to well...dance. No one interprets music and expresses it appropriately and that drives me insane, I can only imagine what that might be like for an audience member who watches and thinks to themself, "its pretty but those moves look awkward paired with the music."

In classes students are told "feel the music," but I don't know how many teachers try to explain what that means and I don't imagine its so easy to teach.

Sorry for the rambling on, but I just came here to say that I think a big reason of why ATS isn't appealing (and I imagine there's many more reasons people will have already given), is because many dancers and troupes just don't express the music through their dance. They're just moving and getting around in 8 counts. Of course there are a good number of troupes who just continuously take your breath away with their performances and seem to improve each time you see them

 

[Silverfyre]

Ana Bat, I found your reply really interesting

I think that must be why I don't find ATS boring, to me it is definately about interpreting the music and not just getting through the song, I really feel the music....although I'm interpreting it all on my lonesome at the moment as I have left my teachers classes for various reasons and have no one to dance with

However like you said, I have no clue how you can teach someone to feel the music and interpret it!!

 

[Shanazel]

Take with more salt as needed:

ATS's relative simplicity and predictability appeals to those who prefer to follow than lead. ATS allows individuals to dance within the shelter of a group under the direction of a strong leader who literally guides dancers every step of the way; as long as a person can follow instructions and learn by rote, she can dance in an environment that is psychologically safer than solo interpretive dance. Dancers get to dress up in cool costumes and interact with dancers of similar mindset. It's fun and sociable in a way that solo styles are not.

I teach Am Oriental but arrange choreographies for my students so they can perform together at twice yearly rec center dance recitals. The twist here is that I get the students to design much of the choreography as a group with me more of an editor than a choreographer. It has worked beautifully in that my dancers get to enjoy the sociability and safety of dancing together while at the same time learning to put together the elements of performance, a skill that will be useful in performing solo.

My class is on Halloween this year and we are having our own little hafla with everyone performing solo. Interestingly enough, the two students most comfortable with solo performance will be taking trickertreaters out that night, leaving the field open for my shyer/less experienced dancers to perform without comparing themselves to more advanced dancers. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Kashmir]

I think that must be why I don't find ATS boring, to me it is definately about interpreting the music and not just getting through the song, I really feel the music....although I'm interpreting it all on my lonesome at the moment as I have left my teachers classes for various reasons and have no one to dance with

As I understand it, strictly you cannot do ATS on your own That aside, if you have a nice Arabic piece where the bar lengths and rhythms vary with the occassional odd accent thrown in - how do you interpret this in ATS? (if you are really improvising - rather than using the form with choreography?) If you decide to start following the musical phrasing rather than the drum, how can you do it? These are what I interpret as "interpreting the music" - not just following a steady beat - which usually isn't there unless you are dancing to pop music - but feeling your way through; switching from rhythm to melody to lyrics; occasionally throwing something in that is never repeated.

 

[AyaKara]

That's the thing! I love the element of a tribe, zills, zaghareet-ing, the fashion & makeup . . . but the dance itself is so simple. I want to challenge my body, to be able to interpret music on improv with it, to express my soul with it. Cabaret or Egyptian are just more suitable for that, in my case.

All that being said though, I don't quite understand what's limiting you. If ATS isn't in your heart, why do it when you live in a city where the possibilities are endless? Why not just take classes in the styles you enjoy watching?

The commute -- from my part of the city (Staten Island), it would take 1 hour to get to the closest non-ATS classes (Manhattan). I spend much of my week in Queens (furthest part of NYC from me) & S.I. with 12 hour days, 2 hour commute, & then the rest of my time getting ready & sleeping back home (all because of college).

So, it would make it nearly impossible to go to Manhattan except on weekends & perhaps one weekday if I'm lucky. Add expenses in -- working student -- & it would be extremely hard to pay for eventually. There's a lot of factors that go into it that make it complicated.

I'm going to do 6 weeks of ATS over winter break so that I at least get the experience of it, while going to BellyQueen (thank god for Christmas money :lol: ), & then continue going to BQ once or twice a week along with BD at school when the semester starts up. I'm working it out somehow

 

[Silverfyre]

Kashmir, yes you are right on one thing, you cannot (strictly) peform ATS as a a solo...however Mama C performs solo's on occasion.....I think she would know if it's allowed or not! I am not performing solo, I meant I am dancing on my own during practice

With regards to the music, this might help you understand what music and rhythms we use in ATS:

Carolena's FAQs about Music for ATS : Fat Chance Belly Dance, Catalog

Sounds to me like you have an axe to grind against ATS which I don't quite get :think:

 

[Viola]

If you aren't a herd animal it won't be for you.

Wow, that's a bit harsh :shok:

 

[Jane]

Sounds to me like you have an axe to grind against ATS which I don't quite get :think:

As dance artists I think it's fair for both sides to ask questions about the other style and there has been friction in both camps for many years. Both are entitled to opinions about ethics, professionalism, Orientalism, intent, and cultural appropriation. When we start accepting everything without examining the underlying issues we become sheep. Art is supposed to challenge our perceptions and educate.

It is my firm belief that ATS/ITS has deviated far enough away from traditional belly dance that it deserves to be considered an art dance in it's own right without the parameters and cultural constraints of the traditional forms. ATS/ITS has earned it. It is not the same dance, it is a new and positive development. No, I don't think ATS/ITS is belly dance, but a new spin-off that has belly dance influences. I'm not saying that in a negative way, I'm saying it should be embraced in a positive way.

 

[Jane]

In ATS you have set moves like basic egyptian, arabic shimmy, camel walk etc., so there will be some overlap in performances as we all use the same moves, what I find makes it different and exiting is the endless combinations one can make from the moves and how dancers interpret the music.

Actually they aren't the same moves. They are sort of similar, but when you put an Egyptian dancer next to a ATS/ITS dancer, and have them do the "same" move, it looks totally different. I've tried this with my ATS certified dancer friends. We generate the movements and apply them to music differently with a different intent and aesthetic. This is one of the many reasons why I believe it is a new dance form. And once again I will reiterate that I believe this is a positive thing.

 

[Silverfyre]

Actually they aren't the same moves. They are sort of similar, but when you put an Egyptian dancer next to a ATS/ITS dancer, and have them do the "same" move, it looks totally different. I've tried this with my ATS certified dancer friends. We generate the movements and apply them to music differently with a different intent and aesthetic. This is one of the many reasons why I believe it is a new dance form. And once again I will reiterate that I believe this is a positive thing.

Actually I meant more that ATS performances will have some overlap as the dancers are using the same move vocabulary, not sure if I made that very clear, having a foggy brain day today :lol:!

 

[Shanazel]

Originally Posted by Kashmir
If you aren't a herd animal it won't be for you.

Wow, that's a bit harsh :shok:

It's a common expression and not a wholesale condemnation.

 

[Silverfyre]

As dance artists I think it's fair for both sides to ask questions about the other style and there has been friction in both camps for many years. Both are entitled to opinions about ethics, professionalism, Orientalism, intent, and cultural appropriation. When we start accepting everything without examining the underlying issues we become sheep. Art is supposed to challenge our perceptions and educate.

Couldn't agree more Jane

I totally agree that both camps are entitled to thier opinions and I actually am really interested in hearing what dancers of other styles have to say about tribal or ATS in general, however comments like the earlier "herd animal" remark are uncalled for and quite frankly, a little offensive.

Anyhoo I'm starting to go off topic here, I'm gonna go shimmy round living room :dance:

 

[Viola]

It's a common expression and not a wholesale condemnation.

Let's agree to disagree

 

[Darshiva]

Anyhoo I'm starting to go off topic here, I'm gonna go shimmy round living room :dance:

Oooh, sounds like fun. Amaya's Drum Solo time. Damned earworms!

 

[Shanazel]

Let's agree to disagree

Why insist on taking offense where none was intended?

I live in the land of beautiful herd animals like antelope, deer, buffalo, horses, and elk, all moving gracefully together throughout their lives under the direction of strong leaders. Goats, cattle, and llamas are pretty cool herd animals, too, though I will admit that sheep aren't the brightest beings ever domesticated by humanity. Just think "gazelle" instead of "sheep" and it puts quite a positive spin on the term "herd animals."

 

[Ariadne]

For one, I think there is a huge lack in musicality in ATS. I'm speaking from my own experiences in my troupe, but I feel like no one aside from the teacher knows how to well...dance. No one interprets music and expresses it appropriately and that drives me insane, I can only imagine what that might be like for an audience member who watches and thinks to themself, "its pretty but those moves look awkward paired with the music."

In classes students are told "feel the music," but I don't know how many teachers try to explain what that means and I don't imagine its so easy to teach.

Sorry for the rambling on, but I just came here to say that I think a big reason of why ATS isn't appealing (and I imagine there's many more reasons people will have already given), is because many dancers and troupes just don't express the music through their dance. They're just moving and getting around in 8 counts. Of course there are a good number of troupes who just continuously take your breath away with their performances and seem to improve each time you see them

That's pretty much how I see it as well.

I also think there is an issue with ATS/ITS dancers performing for each other rather then an audience. It's a style that emphasizes working together and cohesiveness but I haven't seen much emphasis on focusing outward.

Since two big elements of any good performance is your relationship with your audience and your relationship with your music it can fall a little flat.


To be fair however that is two subjects that often are overlooked in other styles of BD as well and there is all to often a "sink or swim" attitude toward the student learning to perform.

 

[Shanazel]

I also think there is an issue with ATS/ITS dancers performing for each other rather then an audience. It's a style that emphasizes working together and cohesiveness but I haven't seen much emphasis on focusing outward.

It fits in well with the beloved legend of belly dance being a dance done by women for women.

 

[AyaKara]

I also think there is an issue with ATS/ITS dancers performing for each other rather then an audience. It's a style that emphasizes working together and cohesiveness but I haven't seen much emphasis on focusing outward.

I've felt this way while watching many ATS troupes, more often than not! But, that only helps to emphasize the 'by women, for women' tribal unity theme going on, no?

But, knowing that, I can't help but feel that maybe ATS shouldn't be performed for an audience openly for events, but rather, in culture fests & in large groups of women in celebration, dancing for one another :think:

EDIT: I think Shanazel & I were on the same wavelength, I didn't read her post before I wrote my own :lol:

 

[Kashmir]

With regards to the music, this might help you understand what music and rhythms we use in ATS:

Carolena's FAQs about Music for ATS : Fat Chance Belly Dance, Catalog

Sounds to me like you have an axe to grind against ATS which I don't quite get :think:

Yes, and she says it herself - "Some songs are just not right for ATS, there are too many quick changes and tempo shifts." And "classical Egyptian music is usually expecting the dancer to show emotion during certain phrases, something that Tribal doesn't do"..."this way of dancing to a classical song will appear 'flat' to someone who is familiar with Raqs Sharqi or Beledi dance"

The question was "is ATS boring to watch?" The answer is, if you are used to belly dance, yes. As Carolena herself says it doesn't have the emotional flexibility nor does it use as wide a palette of music as raqs sharqi/raqs beledi. Doesn't mean you cannot enjoy doing it. But while I can (and have) watch 2-3 hours of sharqi/beledi - one item usually does it for me of ATS. Why is that "an axe to grind"?