dancers=attention seekers?

[BellyDancerJulia]

Isn't it wonderful that you're so confident in yourself that you can make unveiled remarks about how awful this "bigger" dancer is, both as a person and as a technician and dance historian? Good for you!

You are free to criticize and assume things about me, but I understand my history and relationship with this person far better than you. You also seem to be assuming that I am talking only about one person from my posts - which may be perfectly valid, and my fault for you coming to that conclusion. However, these are different people in different situations. I never said that anyone was "awful", either. You seem to be reading too much into my comments and inferring a lot that is simply not there.

 

[Kashmir]

If the newbies have better technique, a good, basic understanding of Middle Eastern culture, musicality, etc., and know exactly what they're teaching, why should they need the approval of someone else who has been around longer to teach or perform? In that sense, if they have surpassed the so-called veteran expert, then they have already paid their dues and should not need the other person's approval. If someone has been dancing 10 years and surpasses the person with 20 years of experience, why should the veteran dancer still be commended as "the top expert"? And why are people afraid when this happens?

I guess because a lot of us oldies have seen newbies who thought they had it all but totally missed the point. Newbies who don't actually understand what belly dance is and insist that they will redefine it to fit what they want it to be. Those that put jazz dancers in bra and belts and call it "belly dance". Those with beautiful, expressive technique who then completely misinterpret a beautiful beledi progression. Many of these people aren't vicious - they are just clueless. Unfortunately if they are also beautiful and charismatic they gather a clutch of even more clueless students. Then if you point out their inadequacies you become a jealous hater.

If however, the newbie does know their stuff there shouldn't be any friction with the gate keepers (in theory - I know things go awry).

 

[Zumarrad]

Nobody is suggesting that there are not dancers with a lot of talent and drive who do very well after only a few years. And we all know that there are dancers who've been dancing 30 plus years who are awful. But I'd be interested to see BellydanceJulia's ideas in another decade or so and see if they've changed at ll, that's if she pursues Middle Eastern Dance. The old "oh she can only critique musicality" chestnut rings very hollow to me. Once BDJ has been dancing for a few more years, she will perhaps reach the point where technique is nothing and musicality is everything, and will find herself a beginner all over again.

I guess I was just taught to respect my elders.

And even though I hate people comparing bellydance and ballet, I think it is fair to say that ballet is one of the most difficult physical disciplines out there, and YET it's the retired dancers who do the teaching and the selecting for prestigious companies. Because they paid their dues and they know what they're talking about.

ETA: OK one of the reasons I've responded the way I did is that it is very very very risky to go out there online making "veiled remarks" about other dancers, no matter how much you dislike them. It will bite you in the arse at worst and at best, it makes you look like an ignorant bitch. It's something to be careful of. Honestly. You've both slagged this woman off, and presumably she and her friends will know who you're talking about, and slagged off any dancer who has more experience than you. No wonder older dancers with a lot of experience who are getting no work in favour of Little Miss Marketing get defensive. (And no I am not one of them, I'm not a professional dancer.)

 

[Amulya]

I think most of us just like to share what we love, to make people happy with your dance and later get them up and dance with your and show them some simple moves and they are surprised they can do some stuff too. Nothing wrong in that.
Maybe we like it as a challenge, it's not easy to be on stage. It challenges us to dance better, to create choreographers or be better at improv. And for some it's good to overcome shyness and insecurity.
Yes some dancers do it in a self centred way, they are the ones who think they are divas and they are annoying. But most of us just love to share what we do.
I agree with the comments about other sports and why people do it. It's just the same.

 

[BellyDancerJulia]

If however, the newbie does know their stuff there shouldn't be any friction with the gate keepers (in theory - I know things go awry).

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Nothing more, nothing less

 

[Ahava_Melantha]

I can sort of relate. Hate seeing so many dancers dancing happy and sassy to a really sad song.

its weird

 

[Amulya]

Agree on that. Even some dancers in Egypt do that. Just choose a happy song for it instead.

 

[Ozma]

She then made a comment about how it has to be about the "love of dance" and "not the love of performing", blah blah (implying that my enthusiasm about performing at bigger events was simply ego-driven)...then several weeks later she's promoting her much-hyped performance for a huge show with other well-known performers.

I don't understand why you link promoting her upcoming performance in a large show with dancers to her "ego". Promoting shows you are in with others is simply professional. Making sure that the show is well attended helps >everyone< involved.

If she were to not promote a show she was in with other dancers, it would be disrespectful to the other dancers.

 

[Roshanna]

My gut feeling re: the OP is that the 'attention seeking' comments are kind of misogynistic, as it seems to have referred only to women who dance, as if these people are uncomfortable with women who do anything to make themselves visible in public...

 

[Shanazel]

I guess I was just taught to respect my elders.

Me, too, Zummarad. However, the older I get the less I have to worry about that because there are fewer of them all the time.

 

[khanjar]

My gut feeling re: the OP is that the 'attention seeking' comments are kind of misogynistic, as it seems to have referred only to women who dance, as if these people are uncomfortable with women who do anything to make themselves visible in public...

I suspect those that would say such things are only thinking of women that dance because it is sadly the fact that men that dance are so few and far between that they are negated completely or they are gay or some other derisory notion as I have come across much, but I fight with logic, fact, reason and invitation, not for me, but to change narrow minds. But one thing I do, I'm like a magpie, I notice jewellery when it is worn and draw conclusions and so understand the notion of religion actually closes some minds for some need to live within clearly defined paramaters to be confident within themselves, I pity them, but minds can be changed.

The other thing is, it is common for people to negate others for what they don't have the courage to do themselves and so spin all kinds of negativity to give themselves reason to be negative and stuck in their own little comfortable world, it's like depression it feeds itself, but maybe that's a clue.

 

[Roshanna]

The other thing is, it is common for people to negate others for what they don't have the courage to do themselves and so spin all kinds of negativity to give themselves reason to be negative and stuck in their own little comfortable world, it's like depression it feeds itself, but maybe that's a clue.

Yes, I think you're right about this Khanjar. People who secretly envy what we're doing, don't have the courage to try it themselves, and find it easier to attack than to face up to their fears

 

[khanjar]

The other thing is humans are inherently lazy, exercise as in dancing is too much like hard work and although some might like to be able to dance, their laziness stops them and I do understand how this laziness can turn negative as I have experienced quite a bit over the years where I have created negativity.

 

[Duvet]

My gut feeling re: the OP is that the 'attention seeking' comments are kind of misogynistic, as it seems to have referred only to women who dance, as if these people are uncomfortable with women who do anything to make themselves visible in public...

As a man, I've been told that I'm only in it because I like the attention. Some of that attention has in fact been unwelcome, but objecting to it has been put down to 'secretly enjoying it', or being asked 'why else would I want to be the only bloke in (or in front of) a room of x number of women?'.

Well, I don't 'want' to be the only bloke. Its just how it is in my area at the moment. Hopefully things will change (I helped organise a hafla earlier this month with two male students performing - it was good to have that)

As a dancer, I don't dance for attention. As a performer the attention from the audience is part of the act, so part of me certainly enjoys or tolerates that side of it. But its not the only or most important reason for me. If the audience DID think I was only showing-off, I'd feel I'd failed in my performance.

 

[khanjar]

Similarly myself, I don't want to be centre of attention by being the only male dancer and would like nothing better than more male dancers, as what attention may be paid to the 'novelty factor', with more dancers that attention is shared out but as far as I am aware, I am the only one in my area and I did for the first time participate in a class photo for the website for the purpose of giving the green light to other males that might be interested.

It was in past my last class at one time we had four male dancers, but being university students, they all drifted away.

But I wonder if my reluctance to perform is because of how it is, but I told my teacher recently when she asked me to dance in one of the shows, I will only perform when I am happy with my dancing in that not only can I remember all of the choreography, but my execution of the movement feels right for I know how the movement should feel, my trouble is slow I can do, fast is problem, it becomes sloppy and I know it.

But no way am I an attention seeker, but hey maybe I am by posting on a public forum where if I was not seeking attention I would be lurking and not contributing, in which case anyone who engages in public communication is an attention seeker by the very nature of being involved with the public, which is what each one of us is a member of.

 

[indrayu]

Responding to the original suggestion that dancers (male or female for this purpose) may really be in it for the attention...

Well, I have noticed in the classes and groups that I've been involved with, that some dancers behave quite differently according to whether or not there's a camera/audience present. Pure love of dance? Doesn't really look like it! Then there's those who, even in a studio rehearsal, barge to the nominated front irrespective of agreed placements.

I currently go to two classes, labelled "Intermediate" and "Advanced". The "Intermediates" are so much more fun! A number of retired women who know they will never be asked to join in a professional gig. They practice in their own time, rehearse with commitment, develop their knowledge and skills, all for the love of dance and enrichment or their lives. They are friendly and encouraging to all, and they dance as well with an audience as without.

The "Advanced" class on the other hand....Elements of being unwilling to try things that they feel will not make them look good, competitiveness (not in that good way of seeing that something is possible and you can do it too), false modesty, limited support of other dancers, a cliqey "We're the good dancers/in group" attitude (irrespective of actual technical skill)...

This is in a very small town. A skewed perspective can easily develop in isolated places, but it's still part of human nature. I've sometimes commented that dancing doesn't necesarily bring out the best in people's natures (since being fiercely scowled at in a community dance class by young "stars.")

By no means are all dancers pathological attention seekers, but you would have to inhabit a wonderful Utopia if you never met any!

 

[Shanazel]

Very interesting, Indrayu. I think back to people I've known who loved the camera- used to irritate me to no end to watch them forget what they were supposed to be doing in order to offer good angles for photography. My son brought his camera to class one time and remarked negatively afterward about the dancers who "kept getting in the way" of his work. There were three in particular who vamped for the camera when they were supposed to be ignoring it, the same three who spent a lot of time gabbing and/or posing for themselves in the mirror.

None of the three is currently in my class. Hmmmm. :think:

 

[khanjar]

I am a photographer who once held an LRPS I photograph anything with ease, but my allergy is being in front of the lens and I still use my DSLR as if it was a manual film camera, automation I do not deal with where possible.

So when the suggestion came that I perform for a photo shoot it took some serious thinking I can tell you, as to whether I really wanted the exposure, but in the end I was not thinking about me, I was thinking of the shy 'others' who might be inspired to get involved, 'through me' in what is a garrison town.

It is not me to seek limelight, which kind of questions why I seek to learn belly dance, maybe it is I do it for my own satisfaction and entertain a special other, the harem fantasy some speak of.

But it is my intention, when I am ready to dance for others on stage, where it will take all my energy to be there.

 

[Aniseteph]

I fail at attention seeking if there are cameras involved. Our teacher has occasionally filmed us for class use and asked if anyone minds or wants to be out of shot, and until very recently I would retire to a corner. I'm only getting over it because it's so unavoidable these days. Photos get all over the web whether you like it or not, and I daresay we'll all end up on YT sooner or later.

I still drift into unobtrusive corners in workshops when it's filming time - ugh, hate it. Another reason to shun choreography workshops!

 

[khanjar]

I have taken pictures at local BD events and conscious that some might not want to appear in a photo, I tell people if they are in the field of vision, despite the fact that a photographer can photograph anyone even without their permission on public land, it's rude, in fact very rude as far as I am concerned, that is why I always tell people.