Arabesque?

[khanjar]

How precise has the movement got to be to be arabesque are there hard and fast rules like say ballet, or is this movement in belly dance more open to personal interpretation as I have seen various interpretations and so guess an arabesque in belly dance is basically how your body does it for our physiologies are all different ?

 

[Shanazel]

Hard and fast rules in belly dance? :lol:

Um, Khanjar, are you new here?

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Buh?

I don't know that word, sorry! Can I clarify something?

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

How precise has the movement got to be to be arabesque are there hard and fast rules like say ballet, or is this movement in belly dance more open to personal interpretation as I have seen various interpretations and so guess an arabesque in belly dance is basically how your body does it for our physiologies are all different ?

Khanjar, I have studied with a lot of different instructors, and each one usually says "this is the 'right' way to do this" and each one usually differs from the others in some way.

Most of the Reda Troupe trained instructors will teach something in a certain way, and that's all consistent with what Reda did, I guess. But it may not be consistent AT ALL with the way Oriental dancers on the stage and screen did it. And it may or may not be consistent with Qawmia-trained instructors. But of course a TROUPE is going to want consistency in style, so you want everybody doing the same move the same way.

Shareen el Safy has a dvd out where she talks about what we call the Arabic Pony -- and how many different versions of that step there are. So when she is demonstrating the step she'll say, "Fifi's version" or "Mervette's version" or whatever. The CONCEPT is the same or at least similar (how the weight changes, the feeling of what's happening with the weight change, where the center of the movement is, etc.) but the execution is different and the resulting visual is different.

With a borrowed dance step, there are no hard and fast rules. Even hip drops (which are arguably as indigenous a movement as you can get!) can be executed different ways, and I've seen "Egyptian style" hip drops executed as a contraction of the adductors on the standing leg OR as a release from the working leg pushing against the ground OR a combination of both. Then you've got the hip drop coming from the abdominal contraction (which may or may not be the way native Egyptians execute the movement) or the glute contraction a la Suhaila, and you quickly end up with half a dozen ways to do something as simple as drop the hip.

THEN you have to factor in the era and the costuming and the dance purpose and the posture. Example: Golden age dancers had a different lower body "posture" than dancers today, because they were told to project the image of "good girl" with thighs and knees together, yet with the whole "Marilyn Monroe" angled foot positioning, creating visual tension in the ankles and a rather unstable base for movement, imo So any movement executed from that base is going to look different from the same movement executed from a neutral parallel position, or even a relaxed 4th.

In short: There are no hard and fast rules, obviously.

(Actually even in ballet, there are different rules for different schools, and those have been rethought in my lifetime. One of the things that "revolutionized" American ballet in the Balanchine years was his allowing dancers to generate movement from a different place than what the standard model dictated. City Ballet had a distinctive look because of that. Of course now his "method" is common in schools that don't strictly adhere to Italian or Russian models (in the US, anyway.))

 

[khanjar]

Hard and fast rules in belly dance? :lol:

Um, Khanjar, are you new here?

My understanding that belly dance is a somewhat relaxed almost lazy dance, it is why it suits me, but I will say from what I read where it is in western minds rules it seems appear to be sneaking in in some respects, where my education is basically that belly dance is improvisation and moving to the music not fitting the music to the dance if you understand what I am trying to get at.

But perhaps what I am seeking is the difference between the western approach and the indigenous approach, both are different where I feel the west is straight lines and rigid and the native is curves and relaxed.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

My understanding that belly dance is a somewhat relaxed almost lazy dance, it is why it suits me, but I will say from what I read where it is in western minds rules it seems appear to be sneaking in in some respects,

There is certainly a relaxed quality to a lot of Egyptian dance that really appeals to Westerners like me I love to watch a dancer who just looks like she's moving effortlessly, as if the movement just flows out of her naturally.

But some of us in the West (at least on my side of the pond) do also enjoy a contrasting look: that sharp, tense, jazzy kind of thing you see from Sadie, Suhaila-training, and people who have a Western dance training background.

Sometimes on OD we refer to "hard body" style -- and I think this is a good description. Dancers who adopt this have a TENSE quality about them. You don't see them really "relaxing" into the dance until after they've finished a movement phrase. (Personally I feel a lot of this is from the kind of dance training we get as children.)

I'm not sure you could call it "rules" per se. Although there certainly are teachers who are producing discrete "systems" who have specific definitions of how movement is achieved. (Fat Chance ATS and Suhaila are the obvious examples.) Those are rules, I guess. And yes, that is VERY popular here, and growing ever more popular as the Tribal Fusion movement grows.

where my education is basically that belly dance is improvisation and moving to the music not fitting the music to the dance if you understand what I am trying to get at.

Yes, I get you And it's THAT quality that I've always loved about Egyptian dance. The music comes first, and the music draws movement OUT of you. The movement doesn't exist independently of the music.

But perhaps what I am seeking is the difference between the western approach and the indigenous approach, both are different where I feel the west is straight lines and rigid and the native is curves and relaxed.

Many of the American teachers who teach Egyptian (real Egyptian) style talk about the difference in posture and alignment. Indigenous Raqs Sharqi uses an S-curve of the body to accentuate the existing curves of the body. But MOST bellydance classes in the US will teach a perfectly aligned posture, straight up and down, which is physically a very SAFE place to start from.

Indigenous styles are often taught with the weight shifted a certain way over the feet, while the "Generic Safe Posture" we learn in the US is totally upright and aligned centrally, with the weight distributed perfectly evenly -- which feels a LOT like standard ballet posture for pointework, to me.

I share your observation that the West is more about straight lines and the native is more curvy. I've recently made note of several instances of this in how we teach dance (and we almost always teach from what the major fitness associations would consider "neutral" or "safe" posture, whether or not that is the indigenous way to do it.) I think a great GREAT deal of this is because of our exposure to Western dance style training, whether in our own personal experience, or as part of our workshop and seminar training.

 

[Kashmir]

How precise has the movement got to be to be arabesque are there hard and fast rules like say ballet, or is this movement in belly dance more open to personal interpretation as I have seen various interpretations and so guess an arabesque in belly dance is basically how your body does it for our physiologies are all different ?

My experience is that in belly dance the term "arabesque" is used whenever the leg is lifted on a count - either to change the leading leg or to change direction. It has very little to do with the ballet concept of an arabesque. It is even used when lifted in front (the "reverse arabesque").

I have have never seen it used as an isolated move. Generally if any "theory" is given it is that the lifted leg barely leaves the ground. Occasionally teachers have mentioned a plie preparation (which I find very useful).

No, it cannot be done any old way. There are "rules". Depends on the style you are performing. An arabesque while doing orientale is different from that doing Reda styled Sa`iidi.

 

[Kashmir]

My understanding that belly dance is a somewhat relaxed almost lazy dance, it is why it suits me, but I will say from what I read where it is in western minds rules it seems appear to be sneaking in in some respects, where my education is basically that belly dance is improvisation and moving to the music not fitting the music to the dance if you understand what I am trying to get at.

Definitely relaxed - but that is actually hard work!

The "rules" are coming in to codeify what dancers from over there from a lifetime of watching and playing with the dance. They don't have spoken/written rules because they "know" what is appropriate. A common thing you'll hear is Egyptians cackling over people wanting to go to dance classes. "Classes?" - ha ha ha. Even today, most Egyptian teachers assume their students can dance but need help in interpretation or want to learn folklore.

 

[Aniseteph]

But perhaps what I am seeking is the difference between the western approach and the indigenous approach, both are different where I feel the west is straight lines and rigid and the native is curves and relaxed.

Some of the west is drawing straight lines, some is trying to work out the mathematical equations to fit those curves. Which might help you focus on the curves, but I'm not sure how well it works.

 

[indrayu]

Reading about safe movement and standardised ways of performing given movements; perhaps that has become more important now that classes in the west teach choreographies rather than musical interpretation and improvisation?

When dancing freely to the music, you will naturally do what is comfortable for your own body and avoid doing what hurts. There will always be a few individuals who push the boundaries; they might end up as either famous performers, teachers or casualties. To replicate someone else's look well, you need to learn the internal muscular workings.

 

[Kashmir]

When dancing freely to the music, you will naturally do what is comfortable for your own body and avoid doing what hurts. There will always be a few individuals who push the boundaries; they might end up as either famous performers, teachers or casualties.

Wish that was true but people do not automatically know what is safe. People move the way they are used to moving or how they see people they admire moving. The former can be influenced by your "real" life eg sitting all day, using phone, repetitive work, genetic inheritance, social norms. Any or all of which can be damaging.

The 'better" posture comes from two strands I think. One is replicating the graceful classical style dance of the Golden Era which had deliberately modified the posture to "classier" and less sexual.

The second is teachers worried about insurance. Most of my Safe Dance training came from Australia when there was talk of requiring teachers to prove they had been tarined in taking care of their students before getting insurance which would be required before being able to hire venues. I believe this initiative was dropped.

There is little training in NZ because here we have no-fault accident cover ie you cannot sue your teacher if you get hurt in class - instead you are able to claim free and subsidised treatment. So with no stick there is little demand for courses and most teachers just muddle along. However, the neutral pelvis posture is taken as the default my most.