Egypt: current situation?

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
I'm not sure we actually have a news "blackout" -- because as Shanazel said, we ARE aware of it.

You could argue it's being under-reported, but rememebr: the SOLE purpose of a newspaper/radio station/TV station is to SELL ADVERTISING. Not to actually report news. And what sells advertising is HSBC money laundering, the Connecticut shooter, Michigan's new abortion and Union laws, same-sex marriage laws, medicinal maryjane, etc ....

The nice thing about the internet is that we DON'T have to rely on Fox or CNN to sell us on what's going on in the world.
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
The party system is all our problems as we lurch from one ideology to the other...
Yea - and I don't want EITHER of their so-called "ideologies".

In the US, we have a choice between the Socialist Liberal Nanny State (tm) or the Fascist Theocratic Nanny State (tm). The first wants to steal all my assets/money, the latter wants to steal my soul. They're both slavery, neither is acceptable.

Unfortunately, I have finally figured out that not only do most people not want "true freedom for all", they don't even want freedom for themselves. So they drag everyone into their particular quagmire.
 

khanjar

New member
Yea - and I don't want EITHER of their so-called "ideologies".

In the US, we have a choice between the Socialist Liberal Nanny State (tm) or the Fascist Theocratic Nanny State (tm). The first wants to steal all my assets/money, the latter wants to steal my soul. They're both slavery, neither is acceptable.

Unfortunately, I have finally figured out that not only do most people not want "true freedom for all", they don't even want freedom for themselves. So they drag everyone into their particular quagmire.

We have Tory and Tory-Lite and we did have a middle of the road party but they sold out to the Tories, so come the next election they gone off the political landscape- finished, they traded their ideology for a stab at power and they will not be forgotten for what they did.

And so if no independent presents themselves or no one is singing from my hymn sheet I will be ticking the box marked; None of the above, the fact we don't have such a box means nothing I just draw my own on the ballot slip for I will not vote for what I don't agree with, not even for a laugh.
 

Erik

New member

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
I heard a blab on the radio that many of the "conservative Moslem Families" were voting NO - one was quoted as saying that she didn't need the Muslim Brotherhood to dictate her relationship with Allah.

True or not, I dunno - but its what I heard today.
 

indrayu

New member
When I was in Collge in the late 1970s I did a term's course on "Islam in the contemporary world" taught by a Bengali historian. The issue then was tradition versus modernity. Politicised religion was a social force in only a few, isolated places back then (e.g. Aceh in Indonesia).

It was made clear that for Muslims their relationship with God is exactly as that woman put it: a choice and responsibility for each individual. We were shown a teaching video with images of a single person praying in the desert and voice-over saying something about Islam being a religion that originated in the lonely desert and which thrives in the solitary space of each believer's heart.

Most of my social contacts have been with Muslims from South Asia, where Sufism has infused the culture, so organised, hard-line political-religious groups go against my understanding of Islam.
 
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shiradotnet

Well-known member
Given your media's total blackout and bias towards our idiot president

On the other hand, the above is Classic Caroline, casting aspersions with a free hand and an unequalled viciousness toward America that becomes, to say the least, tiresome.

That segment you quoted regarding media blackout and idiot president wasn't Caroline's own words. It was something written by someone she knows in Egypt, speaking out of frustration with respect to the world's lack of understanding of what has been happening there. Caroline just reposted it.

I've personally found most of her commentary on the situation in Egypt to be fair-minded.
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
For those who would like to keep updated on ongoing developments in Egypt, you might consider following @monaeltahawy on Twitter.

She tweets mostly in English from that account. She also retweets a lot of posts (also mostly in English) from other people who have been in the thick of things.
 

Shanazel

Moderator
That segment you quoted regarding media blackout and idiot president wasn't Caroline's own words. It was something written by someone she knows in Egypt, speaking out of frustration with respect to the world's lack of understanding of what has been happening there. Caroline just reposted it.

I've personally found most of her commentary on the situation in Egypt to be fair-minded.

My apologies to Caroline, then. Thank you for letting me know so gracefully, Shira. Caroline did some vicious name calling in the past when I dared to disagree with her; while we both chilled out on the matter, lingering antipathy colors my reaction to her personally. Not appropriate to air in public and I regret it.

Other than personal references to Caroline, what I said about the posting remains true.
 

khanjar

New member
When I was in Collge in the late 1970s I did a term's course on "Islam in the contemporary world" taught by a Bengali historian. The issue then was tradition versus modernity. Politicised religion was a social force in only a few, isolated places back then (e.g. Aceh in Indonesia).

It was made clear that for Muslims their relationship with God is exactly as that woman put it: a choice and responsibility for each individual. We were shown a teaching video with images of a single person praying in the desert and voice-over saying something about Islam being a religion that originated in the lonely desert and which thrives in the solitary space of each believer's heart.

Most of my social contacts have been with Muslims from South Asia, where Sufism has infused the culture, so organised, hard-line political-religious groups go against my understanding of Islam.

Hard line any religion I cannot deal with and so, why I keep away from religions.
 

MizzNaaa

New member
So, I finally decided to sit down and put my thoughts, anger, frustration into some coherent sentences to try and shed some light on how (bad) the situation in Egypt is.

Let me first start by commenting on that post about "Our idiot president", that was done by an Egyptian activist, and sadly it's true. Many foreign powers, especially the US decided that telling us to go negotiate is a good idea, when I daresay they KNOW what kind of 'negotiation' Morsi wanted. I'm sorry if this offends anybody from the US or otherwise, but US foreign policies have always been a sore stick in my throat due to (what is in my very personal, sorta biased) blatant hind quarters kissing from our government, the previous one, and their Islamic copy that is our current government. It's always been this way, so our governments could secure their positions and no interference from outside powers while they wreak havoc here, they make sure that any foreign interest (whether it's good for Egypt or bad) is met. Now, I don't blame any foreign governments, after all, if their interests are met, nothing else should matter. But that is how it is, and how it has always been in Egypt.

I have to repeat, this is in no way an attack on our US friends here, or anywhere. The government rarely (almost never) truly symbolizes the people's ideals or desires, and that's how it's always been, so I don't think all Americans are evil or any such nonsense. I do hope I haven't offended anyone.

As for the current situation in Egypt and how it all started. Here's what happened.

MB's constitution Assembly was almost dismissed (again) because over half the members decided to quit in protest to the way the MB members in the Assembly ran things. While writing our hoax of a constitution (excuse the bitterness, my words will be tinged with it all through my post, you understand of course) they refused to discuss things. They literally wrote everything on their own, and when the other half of the assembly protested, they were told to, basically, shut up and keep quiet.

With half the members of the constitution Assembly quitting, the Supreme Judicial Court had to give out an order to dissemble the Assembly (Again) which was the whole purpose of said members quitting. We were all hoping that meant it put pressure in the blatantly MB inclined government to actually form an Assembly that was voted on, and that accurately represented the numerous factions in the Egyptian society.

Now, the MB could not handle that, they want to write the constitution, and they'll do it whether we like it or not, and if we don't, we can go suck a tail pipe for all they care. (Again, excuse the bitterness) So Morsi comes out that night, at around 10 PM with a 'Constitutional Declaration' 'in the name of protecting the revolution' saying, oh well, you don't want the assembly? Weeeelll, bad luck, the assembly is staying, all my decisions can't be repealed, the constitution will be finished within 3 months.

So the raging of the normal, thinking Egyptian people (like yours truly) started, causing mayhem and deaths, and it was basically a deja vu, except replace Mubarak's men with bearded men who claim to be religious and whatever else.

After numerous demonstrations with millions of people taking to the streets (again) to stop the government from screwing us to hell and back, Morsi 'gave in' (HAH, yeah right -.-) and announced a 'new' declaration that said that the first declaration is now void, but any decisions taken or effects of the previous declaration aren't, cannot be repealed...etc. So basically, nothing's changed.

To add insult to the injury, he had their 'reserve' constitution assembly members join what's left of the old assembly to form an all MB assembly to write the constitution, which was finished in less than 12 hours, on national tv, right after the 2nd declaration. Then Morsi said that no, he won't repeal that constitution, and that he'll go through with the polling on that constitution, and that opposition factions should come to negotiate (Negotiate on what exactly, when what we were against is what he said he won't change, I don't know) and that was when Mrs. Clinton and Obama told the opposition to go negotiate, hence the bitter post about "Our idiot president".

Opposition, as well as most of the judges decided to not accept that and said they'll NOT take part in overseeing the polling, since everybody knew there will be forging, and Pre-revolution government shenanigans, and nothing's basically changed.

So, government decides that polling will be broken over two days, with a week in between so that the remaining judges who decided to go ahead and oversee the polling could manage to oversee the process. Except, that didn't happen, and we ended up with polling being overseen by members of the MB's party pretending to be judges, forging "Yes" votes...etc.

I hope that helped clear things a bit for you guys. I didn't want to go into too much detail and bore you, but yeah. That's what happened in a slightly over-sized nutshell .
 

khanjar

New member
MizzNaaa

I would be very surprised if those watching on here are offended by your reference to foreign interference because of one thing, what our governments do by no means reflects what we think, they are a law unto themselves and we have no say, which has the nasty effect as to target bog standard man and woman in the street when anyone wants to attack in retaliation, that is the people suffer for what their governments do, but the governments don't care, all they do is restrict our freedoms further under the name of anti terrorism.

A lot of us do feel for what is happening in Egypt and we really do hope some sense comes out of this for it doesn't look good, but where religion and politics join forces it usually isn't good.

You have our thoughts.
 

Shanazel

Moderator
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us, Mizzy.

I am curious as to what US government response you might've preferred. I'm not being snarky; I really would like to know.
 
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MizzNaaa

New member
I personally have no preference, so long as they don't interfere and enable our government. I'm just saying that I get where this activist is coming from.
 
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Shanazel

Moderator
Fair enough. ;)

There is an feeling in the US that it might be be best for the US government to withdraw from the international scene and let other nations deal with their domestic and political problems without our presence. That would mean, of course, discontinuing all financial support to foreign nations, calling in all foreign loans, and using the money owed to us to pay off our own loans and take of our own domestic issues.

In Egpyt's case, aid from the US is about 1.5 billion dollars a year with Eygpt responsible for a current debt of about 3 billion, a third of which Obama currently proposes to forgive.

That money would fix a lot of our deteriorating roads and feed a number of our elderly.
 
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MizzNaaa

New member
I would feel sorry for the money that would go away if the US stopped supporting us, except, I really don't, cause none of that money is ever used to ever fix our problems. They usually go in the pockets of our government in return for serving the US interests in the region religiously.

Money can be made if our government would let us have an actual economy, they don't wan to though. Keeping us where we are ensures we're too busy trying to make ends meet to put food on the table rather than focus on our rights, including our right to become an industrial country that produces more or at least as much as what we import.

I'm also going to bow out of this conversation now, as I am starting to get offended and I'd rather not start an argument.
 
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Shanazel

Moderator
They usually go in the pockets of our government in return for serving the US interests in the region religiously.

That is one reason among many why US taxpayers are ready to say, "Enough, all ready." On average Americans work until the middle of April every year just to pay taxes which in turn go largely to support other countries.

What is really heartbreaking is discovering the money sent to provide food and water to starving populations ends up in the pockets of the powerful and/or unscrupulous.

No offense to anyone, but the hell with it. :(
 

khanjar

New member
There is the same call in the UK people demanding the government wind it's neck in and stop spending vast sums abroad when we ourselves are embroiled in heavy austerity with real problems starting to develop like the suicide rate up 30 % with those on state aid ten time more likely to kill themselves and about 73 people per week killing themselves as a result of the work capability assessments and that figure from the government themselves so who knows what it is in reality. The suicide topic is emotive to me.

But we just can't figure the purpose of austerity is to bring the debt down, but the government is borrowing even more money than the last lot and giving it away there saddling us with more debt for decades to come and our own people suffer, our services are cut and our infrastructure crumbles.

The call that is being heard loud an clear is charity begins at home except the government doesn't hear, or is it foreign aid is in fact another form of politics, buy someones co-operation to enable trade.

Don't get me wrong I am all in favour of giving to charity, but one does that when one is financially able to do so themselves, in that when one is comfortable one then helps others, unless of course the debts we are told exist don't and what is being forced upon us is ideology, and given the current lot that would not surprise me one bit if it turned out to be the case.

Perhaps it is time to let other countries self determine whilst we sort out own messes out at home.
 

Erik

New member
On average Americans work until the middle of April every year just to pay taxes which in turn go largely to support other countries.

My pet hate is not the foreign aid, but the nearly one Americans out of two drawing a check from the US Government. That number is too high. And there is the national debt in the double-digit trillions now which is apparentlly being floated to infinity.

Honestly, I wanted to just sit back and read the posts, but I can identify with much of what MizzNaaa is saying. I feel that my government has let me down. Most of the Americans I know are just as adventurous and hard-working as their ancestors who carved this country out of the wilderness centuries ago. We want to work and have our independence, but we're trapped in survival mode. Our government could be doing more toward economic recovery. The Canada Pipeline alone would have created thousands of jobs and reduced dependency on foreign oil imports. If I don't trust my own government to decide what is best for me, I see no reason why I should trust it to decide what is best for someone in another country.
 

Shanazel

Moderator
I was agreeing that the US should butt out of Egyptian politics and stop all aid which seems to be going to the wrong places anyway.

Not sure how that is offensive but rather than have further offense taken where none was meant, I'll bow out, too.

See you in the dance section, Mizzy.
 
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