kantorlight
New member
Warning:This response is heavy on the snark.
Given that the genocide of Native Americans continued into the early 1900's and the most recent lynching was in '98, there are reverberations of both that resonate forcefully into the present day. The dark history of this country is the vast majority. And before you get onto me about it, you can be patriotic and acknowledge the reality of what our ancestors participated in.
Well then I guess it's a good thing you're not "making excuses" except that excuses makes up the entire content of this reply. No amount of inter-tribal conflict or slavery in other nations excuses or diminishes the atrocious behavior on US soil. You do realize that you're regurgitating all the same excuses the early colonists spouted for why it was ok to get rid of the "Indian problem."
I'm not even going to respond to the bit about WWII as it makes no logical sense.
The marked difference is that the practice of American culture has never been made illegal. The Natives had their cultural traditions outlawed and their children kidnapped to prevent them from learning their traditions. Africans and Latin Americans saw their traditions similarly outlawed. Maybe we don't have as much pause in sharing our traditions because we've never had it taken or stolen from us on an institutionalized scale? Or had to fear our lives for practicing our cultural traditions. There should be similar care taken with the cultures of the Middle East and South Asia, given our (and the British empire's) involvement in that region.
Well I guess when anyone has any questions about the sharing of cultural practices we'll have to come to you, now that you get to decide what is and isn't "too sensitive."
But honestly, it is the height of arrogance to tell someone else what they do/don't have to share from their own culture.
"but probably that story got by folks in those same old boring history lectures mentioned above" I have no idea what you are trying to say in this bit. You're also forgetting that this religious occurrence happened via colonization and in many cases, ethically problematic missionary work.
Then it is not cultural appropriation. You seem to misunderstand me. I do not have a problem with every example of someone learning something from another culture, only when it is done without the consent of the original culture (or in cases of blantant misrepresentation). Hell, if it was to the contrary, I wouldn't be pursuing belly dance.
Who gets the final word? The members of the culture. That's all I've ever said. In the case of belly dance, they share it willingly, so I see no issue there. Similarly you (and your friend) shared something from your own culture.
From Anisteph "Cultural interactions and learning about other people - cool.
Picking up bits and pieces with no regard as to meaning for the people who made them, as if the world is a global supermarket - uncool.Getting snotty with individual people who are genuinely interested, because their ancestors did whatever to your ancestors* - also uncool IMO."
I'm just saying that given our history and how prevalent the "global supermarket" attidude is in this country, we should be sure that we're doing the former and not the latter. If it is snotty to acknowledge this concern and respond to someone glossing over it, then I'll be snotty.
From Aziyade "Looking back at this forum, others, and of course my own experience, I do have to agree, in part, that many dancers (when it comes to issues of cultural appropriation) err on the side of caution, and that SOME TIMES we do tend to restrict ourselves for fear of doing something "wrong" or offensive . . . I actually want to believe that the people who are most guilty of the offensive kind of appropriation are also in the minority, but it also seems that we can't go two years on OD without dredging up the "Gypsy" issue, so maybe my expectations are off.
You said it better than I could!
From Zummarad "I have perhaps not handled this well. There is a certain position in bellydance - and it TENDS to be held by American dancers, . . . I can't engage with those people. Sometimes when I see statements online that seem to touch on that discourse, I respond to it - not with the intention of engaging with the poster but just so that another viewpoint is there for people to read. I made the mistake of picking up on what I believed to be that viewpoint in one of Shanazel's remarks," "I have not posted on this board for a long time and I would just like to say to anybody reading this that I do not have any kind of "vehement hatred" or even dislike for Americans."
I echo the same feelings, what I saw in Shanazel's original comment ("That so many felt the need to justify it with pseudo-history and costuming is sad and even sadder is that they aren't taken as a serious cultural movement because a) it is still in its infancy and b) in the beginning was composed largely of middle class Caucassian women. And we all know middle-class Caucassians haven't a clue to "real" tribal culture, right?") was a glossing over of the legitimate concerns people have with appropriation in tribal fusion/ATS (though there are examples in cabaret/oriental). It's important for people to keep these concerns in mind without turning into some of the extreme examples Aziyade mentions. It is not meant as an attack on the US, belly dancers, or even Shanazel personally, but just a reminder.
Genocide and slavery. Alas, this is all the American history some folks manage to cram into their brains during those hours of lectures. We fought a war about 160 years ago that ended the practice of slavery in the US and we’ve been struggling along ever since to mitigate the results of the practice. Last time I checked, slavery was an ongoing thing in other parts of the world, de facto if not de jure. I'm not going to mention one of the worst documented offenders since doing so will probably get me accused of generalizing and cultural insensitivity.
Given that the genocide of Native Americans continued into the early 1900's and the most recent lynching was in '98, there are reverberations of both that resonate forcefully into the present day. The dark history of this country is the vast majority. And before you get onto me about it, you can be patriotic and acknowledge the reality of what our ancestors participated in.
While not making any excuses for the terrible way the First People were treated by the government, I do have to point out . . . The First People were not and are not one big happy family. All we have to do here is look a few miles west to the Wind River Rez where the Arapaho and Shoshone are currently going at each other in court over bald eagles . . .
Well then I guess it's a good thing you're not "making excuses" except that excuses makes up the entire content of this reply. No amount of inter-tribal conflict or slavery in other nations excuses or diminishes the atrocious behavior on US soil. You do realize that you're regurgitating all the same excuses the early colonists spouted for why it was ok to get rid of the "Indian problem."
I'm not even going to respond to the bit about WWII as it makes no logical sense.
Re: the “invisible privilege and position of authority” of average Americans being responsible for our ability to enjoy seeing others embrace our customs. You know, if you were talking about anyone but Americans you’d get accused of cultural insensitivity but seriously, I have to shake my head and laugh. Could it possibly be that we enjoy seeing others enjoy our customs, dance, and music just because we like to see people take part in the very things we take pleasure in?
Even in America there are everyday things from older more traditional cultures that have elements of religion or specific social values attached to them that outsiders might not be able to discern without help. Really, do you think we're a blueprint of what you see on TV? [/FONT][/COLOR]
The marked difference is that the practice of American culture has never been made illegal. The Natives had their cultural traditions outlawed and their children kidnapped to prevent them from learning their traditions. Africans and Latin Americans saw their traditions similarly outlawed. Maybe we don't have as much pause in sharing our traditions because we've never had it taken or stolen from us on an institutionalized scale? Or had to fear our lives for practicing our cultural traditions. There should be similar care taken with the cultures of the Middle East and South Asia, given our (and the British empire's) involvement in that region.
It is good to be aware of others and to treat them and their beliefs and customs with respect but I reiterate without apology: we've all gotten a bit too sensitive about what can be shared and what can't.
Well I guess when anyone has any questions about the sharing of cultural practices we'll have to come to you, now that you get to decide what is and isn't "too sensitive."
But honestly, it is the height of arrogance to tell someone else what they do/don't have to share from their own culture.
Who gets to decide whether or not to share if my husband is cool with folks in Latvia or Ceylon singing hymns that arose in the Second Great Awakening of the late 18th and early 19th centuries and my neighbor across the street is not?
By the way, this was a religious and not secular occurrence that had a huge impact on the USA, but probably that story got by folks in those same old boring history lectures mentioned above. Frankly, I’ve never met anyone whose religious beliefs stem from that Awakening who wouldn’t be delighted to teach those songs to anyone who asks despite the songs having important religious and cultural significance.
"but probably that story got by folks in those same old boring history lectures mentioned above" I have no idea what you are trying to say in this bit. You're also forgetting that this religious occurrence happened via colonization and in many cases, ethically problematic missionary work.
Belly dance was originally shared in the United States the same way most things get shared: by immigrants to the country. Videos and internet weren't invented in the fifties and sixties and we learned from people who'd learned from other people. My first Middle Eastern dance teacher was the mother of a friend who immigrated to California from Eygpt during the 1967 war. Can't get much more willingly shared than having someone show you how to dance in her living room and serve you honey bread and coffee afterward.
Then it is not cultural appropriation. You seem to misunderstand me. I do not have a problem with every example of someone learning something from another culture, only when it is done without the consent of the original culture (or in cases of blantant misrepresentation). Hell, if it was to the contrary, I wouldn't be pursuing belly dance.
My first raks teacher was a woman from Armenia who’d learned to dance from family and friends. More sharing- she taught me to dance, I taught her an old style of Appalachain embroidery. Oops! Darn, there I went sharing a rare example of American craft that is not without specific cultural significance . What if my friend who also teaches embroidery objects to sharing this specialized knowledge? Who gets the final word?
[/QUOTE]Ah. What a fine discussion. Thanks to all involved.
Who gets the final word? The members of the culture. That's all I've ever said. In the case of belly dance, they share it willingly, so I see no issue there. Similarly you (and your friend) shared something from your own culture.
From Anisteph "Cultural interactions and learning about other people - cool.
Picking up bits and pieces with no regard as to meaning for the people who made them, as if the world is a global supermarket - uncool.Getting snotty with individual people who are genuinely interested, because their ancestors did whatever to your ancestors* - also uncool IMO."
I'm just saying that given our history and how prevalent the "global supermarket" attidude is in this country, we should be sure that we're doing the former and not the latter. If it is snotty to acknowledge this concern and respond to someone glossing over it, then I'll be snotty.
From Aziyade "Looking back at this forum, others, and of course my own experience, I do have to agree, in part, that many dancers (when it comes to issues of cultural appropriation) err on the side of caution, and that SOME TIMES we do tend to restrict ourselves for fear of doing something "wrong" or offensive . . . I actually want to believe that the people who are most guilty of the offensive kind of appropriation are also in the minority, but it also seems that we can't go two years on OD without dredging up the "Gypsy" issue, so maybe my expectations are off.
You said it better than I could!
From Zummarad "I have perhaps not handled this well. There is a certain position in bellydance - and it TENDS to be held by American dancers, . . . I can't engage with those people. Sometimes when I see statements online that seem to touch on that discourse, I respond to it - not with the intention of engaging with the poster but just so that another viewpoint is there for people to read. I made the mistake of picking up on what I believed to be that viewpoint in one of Shanazel's remarks," "I have not posted on this board for a long time and I would just like to say to anybody reading this that I do not have any kind of "vehement hatred" or even dislike for Americans."
I echo the same feelings, what I saw in Shanazel's original comment ("That so many felt the need to justify it with pseudo-history and costuming is sad and even sadder is that they aren't taken as a serious cultural movement because a) it is still in its infancy and b) in the beginning was composed largely of middle class Caucassian women. And we all know middle-class Caucassians haven't a clue to "real" tribal culture, right?") was a glossing over of the legitimate concerns people have with appropriation in tribal fusion/ATS (though there are examples in cabaret/oriental). It's important for people to keep these concerns in mind without turning into some of the extreme examples Aziyade mentions. It is not meant as an attack on the US, belly dancers, or even Shanazel personally, but just a reminder.