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  1. #101
    V.I.P. Aniseteph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsmereldaDancer1987 View Post
    So the egyptians had hieroglyphs, hierosonic singing bowls as can be found in various museums. Incredible knowledge of astronomy and the stars. "Hiero" means sacred by the way. sacred glyphs, sacred sound, is it really such a large leap to believe they didn't have sacred dance.
    That leap takes you from historical fact into Making S*** Up territory. If you feel you must make that leap, what has that unknowable dance got to do with belly dance? The reality of belly dance? Reality as in what was going on in that restaurant, the global phenomenon that produced all your DVDs, in the clips you posted, in the social form which is alive and well in the ME? As in the reality that you are clearly pretty clueless about? Nothing.

    Show me the belly dancing alchemists. Seriously - hubby is a chemistry geek and likes that stuff, and it would Bring Us Together. Gah,I want a pic with the dancer in the alchemists cell so much now...




    If we are playing "my made up feelings about belly dance that are obvious if you think about it": Belly dance is the cosmic feminine balance for Morris Dance, as any fule kno.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aziyade View Post
    Every word of this
    This is altogether awesome, and you have a far stronger stomach than I do, ma'am. As for

    "His narcissism and political differences with the rest of the Golden Dawners aside, Crowley was not an idiot. Although I do see he's appreciated more on this side of the Pond."

    I would add that Crowley was unabashedly and very openly anti-Semitic, so much so that there is a lot of apologia and redaction with apologia by later followers. Which should make his take on Kabbalah somewhat suspect. Those who built on his foundation...if you have something tainted to start with.... And Manly P. Hall, who wrote (also available for download) "The Jew Does Not Fit In," might have had his own struggles around that. Neither of them were idiots, but there is some doubt about credibility and objectivity for both on certain issues, yeah?

    I don't care what people believe, really, but if they're using it to spar with people and justify...whatever this is, and there is definitely some distasteful subtext to much of what has been said...as factual, well, sources do need to be considered (and I pulled so many punches in what I said.)

  3. #103
    Senior Member Sophia Maria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kartane View Post
    Esmerelda, here is a different way to think about all this. Technique IS freedom of expression. When your body, your muscles, know how to execute a move perfectly, with intention and crispness, or smoothness and flow, you are free to lose yourself in the music and not have to think about every move you make, or plan 4 steps ahead or worry 'did I do that hip drop or chest slide with grace and precision?' Dancers of this art form to not train toward 'sameness'...they train toward more and more freedom of expression. In allowing yourself the time and work to be precise, know the history of the art, learn the moods and nuances of the music, you open new worlds to yourself. Technique does not box you in...it sets you free.
    Again! You said it perfectly again!

    It is perfectly fine to use any form of dance in order to feel free, connected to yourself, or connected to a higher power. However, that is for private use. It's objective relevance is debatable, but it is perfectly fine to feel a spiritual connection to dance. I do too. But don't use spirituality to explain the supposed "ancient" bellydancing history. There is not nearly enough proof, and at that point it is unfortunately only wishful thinking, or worse, "wishtory".

    When you are performing in public, it is a different matter. You started with the question "Can I perform in restaurants?" When you perform at a hafla or student show, people pay specifically to see you and to support you. Even if your technique or showmanship may need refinement, they are there for you. In a restaurant or other similar paid venue, people usually have NOT paid to see you and if they do not see someone who impresses them with effortless technique and ENGAGES them socially, they will ignore you. Even though you may be totally absorbed in the music and enjoying yourself, they did not come to just watch you connect with yourself. Being ignored is painful, and I don't want you to have to go through that unnecessarily. It's just like many social interactions, in fact. One cannot expect to simply walk down the street and have people admire you and appreciate your talents and personality. You have to engage them first, make their day a little brighter, then in turn they will appreciate you.

    And I repeat what Kartane said so well. The reason we go to umpteen workshops and spend hours perfecting minute details of technique is not to be a mindless bellydance drone. When you learn all this technique from the best, your body absorbs it like a language. Eventually, you will be nearly fluent in that language and you will be able to say perfectly what you want to say.

  4. #104
    V.I.P. Aniseteph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aziyade View Post
    Also, probably 90+ percent of the people on this discussion board could not care less about your personal beliefs about mysticism, and telling them to "research it" does not prove any points, or make your case any stronger.
    This. Soooo much.

    You can BELIEVE whatever you want -- you can believe in the tooth fairy. Just don't go on a discussion board with dentists and start accusing them of not doing research when they look at you askance and say WTF are you talking about.
    I've been looking for a good analogy all day - THANK YOU! (mind now content and at rest. )

    No offense UKers, but I thought this kind of thing was a product of the failure of the American educational system. Part of me feels slightly less at ease knowing that there are other parts of the world with just as bass-ackwards thinking.
    Yeah, you don't have a monopoly.

  5. #105
    Junior Member EsmereldaDancer1987's Avatar
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    Im not bothering anymore with this forum, like you have said you have already made up your minds. I did tell you i had a very different perspective and world view on this, i never said its true its what i choose to believe as it resonates with me and feels true to me. I haven't dismissed the book by Lexova, it does take a few days for it to be delivered from amazon you know. I did ask the tooth fairy to deliver it but she wasn't available as i dont have a spare loose tooth lying around :'(

    Please do either move this thread or close it completely because i haven't got the time to carry on defending my chosen beliefs against hostile defamations. I have a life in the real word too lol

    Ciao, Questo forum pazzo!

  6. #106
    Member Munniko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsmereldaDancer1987 View Post
    Please do either move this thread or close it completely because i haven't got the time to carry on defending my chosen beliefs against hostile defamations.
    Ciao, Questo forum pazzo!

    Nobody was attacking your beliefs they were attacking the things you were presenting as fact of Belly dance. I could care less what you believe in for awhile I was a strong follower of Shinto so I really do believe what ever floats your boat in your belief system.

  7. #107
    Member LilithNoor's Avatar
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    Ciao, Questo forum pazzo
    Well, thank God that's over. I don't know whether to be happy or sad that the UK bellydance scene is now so far developed as to be breeding its own trolls. Feels like we've come of age!

    On the plus side, this thread has highlighted a new teacher I will be checking out, and what looks like a rather nice restaurant if I'm ever up that way.

    And as an extra bonus, having repeatedly referred to said restaurant as a rather naff eating place with no understanding of bellydance culture, the chances of bumping into the OP as a dancer there are mercifully slim.

  8. #108
    Member Roshanna's Avatar
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    Well that was... eventful...
    I've never seen a flounce in real life before

    I kind of feel like some of the non-WTF bits of this thread could be compiled into a pretty good advice article for baby dancers, if anyone felt like sifting through.

  9. #109
    Member bomu samba's Avatar
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    Now you can play flounce bingo!

    ETA - and I am sifting through all the good advice and creating a mini good-sense guide!
    Last edited by bomu samba; 01-18-2013 at 08:15 PM.

  10. #110
    V.I.P. Aniseteph's Avatar
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    Yay, flounce bingo! But I can't be the only one who started mentally playing pre-flounce bingo as soon as the "show us your clips then" card was played.

    A more informed person would have called us the Belly Dance Police - I believe that is the correct procedure.

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