Am i good enough to start performing at restaurants?

Kashmir

New member
I didn't realise this belly dance forum would be so bitchy and judgemental! I asked for some advice not to be picked at, i dont even think i was as bad as you are all making me out to be considering ive basically taught myself how to dance.
If you had posted that video and said "this is what I've taught myself so far - what do you think?" You probably would have got praise for your clean technique and dedication but still pointed to needing some lessons in how to belly dance (as opposed to moving your body). But you didn't come as an amateur hobbist - you came asking whether you were professional standard and the answer was a resounding "no".
Im not going to give up on my passion for belly dancing as im so drawn to it. I did not expect these kind of comments. I actually thought the belly dance community would be more enlightened as it is supposed to be a spiritual dance created by the Ancient Egyptians.
Well, there is part of the problem. You are drawn to "belly dance" but basically don't know what it is. I've spent a lot of time in research and there is no evidence for it being "a spiritual dance created by the Ancient Egyptians". No evidence that it is even the same dance as depicted on the tomb paintings (have you studied Lexová's "Ancient Egyptian Dances"?). You want to see the closest thing the roots of belly dance? There's that beledi dancing that you had never heard of and was so dismissive of.
Dancing is meant to be a celebration of a woman's body, all these little things that people pick at to make sure its perfect rips the soul out of it. The Ancient Egyptians didn't do all that they just danced and moved their bodies to the beat of the drum for rituals, celebrations and also preparing women for birth etc.
Actually it isn't. For a start men and children belly dance too. Belly dance is a celebration of your community and the music. Your body (if you are a woman) is what you use to communicate with. The dance isn't all about you.
I honestly thought the belly dance community would be a lot more nicer, Belly dance is my passion, dancing is my passion as ive loved it since i was a little girl and im going to keep at it every day and do it the way my intuition tells me, ill let that guide me from now on.
Right - and dance with your intuition as much as you like. Enjoy it. Just don't call it "belly dance" and don't think you are ready to be paid to belly dance in public.
 

Yame

New member
constructive criticism is welcomed but what people tend to forget on forums is that unless people can back up their opinions with a video of them performing themselves to the standard they're being critical of then it's all just hot air with no substance, a good critique comes with a good counter example or demonstration from the critic in my opinion.

I probably shouldn't reply to this because at this point it's pretty obvious you're most likely just a troll, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt for now...

You DO realize that YOU came here posting your video and asking if we think you are ready to be a professional, right? That's an invitation for criticism. If you didn't want your dance to be critiqued, why did you ask?

If you don't care for the opinion of dancers you have never seen and whose dancing you may not like, why ask here? Why not book private lessons with the dancers you do like, or send them an email?

Most of the responses here have been very constructive and helpful. Sure, some of it may have come off a little harsh, but most people were trying to help you and answer your questions. We don't owe you any credentials, because YOU asked US. We didn't go barging into your youtube channel giving you our opinions, unasked.

So ask yourself, why did you come here asking for opinions and advice, only to tell people off after hearing what they had to say, even though no one was disrespectful or rude to you? Did you just come here for validation? Did you expect to be showered with praises? Because if that's the case, you're in for a surprise. The world doesn't owe you praise and validation. If you work hard and try to actually learn about the dance you claim to be doing though, you might start to earn some respect and admiration. But it takes dedication, time, and patience. It also takes thick skin and the ability to take criticism (especially criticism that you ASKED for). The latter which you clearly, for now, do not have.
 

MizzNaaa

New member
You know...I've never actually EVER been offended by anything anybody said about our dance, until this thread.

“It looks like a drunk woman trying her best not to fall over”

Erm...excuse me? If 'baladi' looks like a drunk woman trying her best not to fall over, why the heck are you bellydancing exactly? Since you do realize baladi IS bellydance, it just happens to be what we call it here in Egypt.

I'm not even going to start quoting any of the rest of the utter nonsense you just wrote in that post because not only are you misinformed, you're being stubborn about your ignorance as well. NO, Bellydance isn't a celebration of a woman's body or femininity or what-have-you, baladi (or what you'd call bellydance) is a social dance, men women and children dance it here and if you've taken about...I don't know, 10 minutes to do a little google search about what Bellydance is you would have known much more than the nonsense you're typing up right now. There is no evidence that Ancient Egyptian dance is what you call bellydance, and the only origin of bellydance AKA Oriental dance is OUR cultural social dance which is baladi. I'd like to also inform you that - NEWS FLASH - the moves you were making in that video mostly are from baladi or are a modified version of baladi...so yeah.

You didn't come here for constructive criticism, you came here to get validated and told that you're great. You presented yourself as someone who'd want to be judged as a professional so don't come crying when we give you what you asked for.

I believe everybody else pretty much summed up my reaction very well.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
..."a drunk woman trying her best not to fall over” artistically. :D



So when are we going to get that flounce emoticon?
 

Darshiva

Moderator
I feel sorry for the OP. It's really hard having your delusions of grandure ripped out like a rug from beneath you. I've been there.

About 4 years into my dance training I thought I was all that, ready to teach, best dancer in the world bar Rachel, and so on. So I ordered Keti's A-Z original with the intention of nailing it & submitting my coursework in the shortest time ever and doing teacher training in the same - by correspondance - to be completed within 6 weeks - three months at the most because I was just that damned good. And when I received the package, I popped in the dvd and started... to get very embarassed by the realisation that I wasn't all that hot after all, this was a lot harder than I thought it was going to be and I was struggling with the most basic concepts on the dvd.

Well I've been dancing for 9 years now and teaching for 4 and I still haven't finished that dvd. But among the amazing lessons I learned from it was the lesson of humility. I'm not all that. I will never be. Even if I achieve international stardom as a dancer there will still always be room for improvement.

And sadly, that's a lesson I doubt the op really wants to learn. Because having the ability to realise that you're not as good as you think you are and that knowing that is a good thing takes a level of humility I don't think she posesses. But then again, I could have said the same thing about myself 5-6 years ago, so who knows. Maybe she'll go away & think about it & realise that insulting bellydance is not the way to win the adulation of bellydancers. And that she has a lot to learn about dancing before she decides to take it out in public.
 

Jane

New member
Treat people seeking advice with caution. Most of the time they are really seeking validation. Really not worth bothering. <shrugs>

Serious students pay for professional opinions in private lessons.

This thread belongs on SockPuppet Theater http://sockpuppettheatre.com/ We need a belly dance version.
 
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My god its like being on a forum with bitchy school girls, i see one of you has disliked my video that just shows how petty you really are. Theres me thinking the belly dance community would be more supportive. I didn't expect to be praised i was looking for genuine advice, not to be bashed and picked at on what im doing.

There are different styles of belly dance im more interested in Raqs Sharqi than Raqs Balady. Dina was the belly dancer i was referring to when i said she looks like a drunk woman, the others you sent me i liked.

But seriously can we stop with this bitching i really cannot be arsed with it as it just doesn't resonate with me, i like the keep the peace.

This is what i see more as the ancient dance of Egypt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5BwgCeZ--w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u5WJ-G_bbs
 
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Darshiva

Moderator
Serena is known for being as experimental as her husband. Both are very big names in bellydance, but only Hossam is Egyptian.

If this is the style that interests you, look for an instructor in your area who teaches Suhaila Salimpour method. That way you can work on your musicality and transitioning in a style that actually interests you.

As far as bitchiness goes, I'm afraid that started with your derogatory comments about authentic bellydance. I wouldn't assume that someone from OD put a negative mark on your video, from what I could tell everyone was trying to encourage you to keep going with the dancing without encouraging you to make the mistake of public performance well before you were ready. And as far as that goes, the majority of the commenters speak from experience there. You do not want to go into public performance right now, I know this from how negatively you have been taking constructive peer critique.
 

M'Lady Caija

New member
It's all about the point of view and with wich attitude you read what others say...

Noone is out to get you, but you reacted pretty harsh yourself.

If you have trouble with criticism at this point, you're not ready, coz if you go on stage at a restaurant and then get critisism from the owner you'll probably won't take that as well either. And that might cost you your spot as an entertainer as well as it can damage your reputation in that city, coz restaurant owners do talk to eachother about the dancers they hire...

But in the end, it's up to you, either you take the critisism and advice from here to practice and work more on your dance or you go on stage and risk getting the boot.
 

Pleasant dancer

New member
constructive criticism is welcomed but what people tend to forget on forums is that unless people can back up their opinions with a video of them performing themselves to the standard they're being critical of then it's all just hot air with no substance, a good critique comes with a good counter example or demonstration from the critic in my opinion. Which is why I actually asked this same question to one of my mentors online and she answered with a much more intelligent and reasonable answer, she said ‘see what the standard of dancing is in your area and if you’re better than what you see out their already then yes you are good enough to perform in those venues, you don’t have to get it perfect right away, you just have to get it started, no amount of classes is going to prepare you for actually stepping onto the stage for the first time and feeling the attention of the audience inspiring that dance to flow through, that comes from you, your soul, your spirit and what you're ultimately capable of, we all have to take that first step sooner or later and from my experience, the sooner you do it, the better’.

So if anyones up to the challenge, post your youtube vids :) then we can really talk and get some constructive conversations flowing

Es - perhaps you were not aware when you posted the OP that this forum is used by a wide range of people, including professional dancers and teachers who have many years of experience and are highly thought of and sought after in their field, including those who have produced highly successful teaching videos. Some of these people have offered you, for free, the informed critique you appear to have been asking for. They have no need to justify their normally valued critique (which you actively sought) by posting videos of themselves so that we can make comparisons. If you wish to see some of their videos a quick search of this forum or the internet generally will soon bring some up. You are entitled to your own opinion on their dancing/teaching ability.

I really can't find any bitchiness in this thread. Sometimes written comments don't have the same reasonance as they would have when spoken verbally, but that is a different issue. and should be taken account of when reading an internet forum. There is a great deal of valuable advice and information which people have taken their time to give you freely, as you asked for. However, the forum is not Facebook or YouTube where friends and passers-by can shower you with adulation. You will get honest and informed opinions here.

You will get these opinions because everyone on this forum CARES, really, really cares about belly dancing (in all its multi-faceted forms). They care as much as you do, possible more, as many have been studying, teaching, performing and generally learning about the dance for many more years than you. We all have to start somewhere in our journey, and the advice given here is aimed to make your journey successful. You been encouraged and supported to pursue the dance further, please do so with a little humility, you have so much to learn, and there are many people who will share their knowledge with you if you let them.
 

mahsati_janan

New member
On the original topic of this post, my answer is that while you have the start of some beautiful technique, you are not ready to be a professional performer. Other dancers on this forum have already articulated areas of improvement for you, so I won't be redundant here.

However, I do want to let you know that there are a large number of dance instructors (local, national, and internationally known), performers (local, national, and internationally known), and dance researchers (anthropologists, historians, ethnomusicologists, dance ethnologists) on this forum. The information you are receiving is sound, whether or not you are in a place emotionally where you can hear and accept it.

The advice you are receiving is largely from professional dancers who are already working teaching and performing at restaurants, galas, parties, and special events. While they may not list their personal credits in every post, the advice you are receiving is not coming from uninformed people; this advice is coming from dancers who are actively working in this field, long-time students, and a dancer who is herself from one of the cultures represented by this dance form. No one here is against innovation or developing your own style, but they have been dancing long enough to understand that developing your own style is something you can only do successfully once you understand the larger styles involved.

You have a lot of raw movement talent and drive to learn, but, if you want to become a professional dancer, you will absolutely need to have classes with a professional dancer in order to learn the cultural and performance aspects necessary to be a successful dancer. Good luck with your studies and, please, take a step back and understand that no one is trying to stifle your creativity; in order to break the rules successfully, you need to know those rules very, very well.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
Serena is known for being as experimental as her husband. Both are very big names in bellydance, but only Hossam is Egyptian.
I just want to be really clear in case you didn't catch what Darshiva was saying. Those videos are not actual "ancient dance" but an experimental theatrical production based on a theme. "Pharaonic" productions that imitate Egyptian drawings are often mocked precisely because they aren't accurate. It's a gimmick, that's all.
 

Tiziri

New member
Also agreeing that I didn't actually see any bitchiness or snarkiness in the responses you received; not only was it on balance positive, but really useful and specific (knowing that you should concentrate more on these styles as that is what restaurant owners are looking for, being musically mindful, etc.) People did you the courtesy of giving you feedback appropriate to someone who is a serious student, looking to improve -- rather than giving you kindly-worded but vague commentary. When knowledgeable people do that, it generally means that they didn't think you totally sucked. The women who responded are mostly professionals, some in the business for decades, taking time to watch your video, and evaluate it, and tell you what they think...which was for the most part positive (as a student not even considering going pro, I'd have really been delighted by some of what was said, and I would have definitely taken to heart the rest of it, considering who here is saying it.) I don't think you thanked or responded to anyone about the positives. I can see where it might have stung, but please step back and look at what was being said to you.

In the words of my long-ago rather terrifying Russian ballet teacher: "I am critical of you because you can be good. If I say nothing to you, then you should worry you are not good, and won't be good."

It seems you have been dancing in a vacuum, an echo chamber. You need feedback, and you need comparison and exposure to many different things. All of these things are things you would get by taking lessons and interacting with members of the community. Right now you have formed conceptions and misconceptions around the dance that aren't accurate (and that, frankly, make you come across as not only uninformed but arrogant; I think that does stem from not having interaction. You don't know what you don't know.) The regular work and feedback cycle of a class would help you a lot -- taking, digesting, and using the criticism you receive to improve is also a skill that needs to be learned; we aren't born with it. Good luck.
 

Tiziri

New member
I just want to be really clear in case you didn't catch what Darshiva was saying. Those videos are not actual "ancient dance" but an experimental theatrical production based on a theme. "Pharaonic" productions that imitate Egyptian drawings are often mocked precisely because they aren't accurate. It's a gimmick, that's all.

I often wonder when people assume that is accurate if they understand that what they are seeing in paintings is about artistic license, conventions, and limitations, or if they really believe people were walking (and dancing) sideways like crabs, with their arms held at 90-degree angles. Do they also think that people in the Middle Ages had huge eyes, and wore clothing that defied all laws of physics in how it draped?
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
I guess being brought up in different cultures you get conditioned to believe dancing has to be performed in a certain way or to a certain ideology but if I listened to some country folk music and I was a jazz fan I wouldn’t criticise the folk music for not being jazzy enough.

Try to imagine this said in a kind (not argumentative) tone of voice, by someone who is trying to offer you another way to look at things (NOT trying to attack you): Dancing for the joy of dancing can be done in any way that the person doing it wishes to. If you're in your living room, or if you're one of many people on the dance floor doing social-dance at your favorite club, you can certainly dance in any way that inspires you so long as you don't run into furniture or other people. :lol:

But when you start thinking in terms of performing something in front of strangers, for an audience that you expect to watch you and appreciate you, then it's no longer a matter of doing whatever you please. Then there IS a need for a certain ideology - an ideology that puts the needs of the restaurant owner and the diners ahead of your own personal needs. Because that's what professional entertainers do - they deliver what the client wants them to deliver.



Just for curiosity's sake, why are you interested in taking your dance into restaurants at this time in your development as a dancer? I would normally expect a would-be professional to have first obtained several years of performance experience in situations appropriate to student performers. A bit of web searching may help you find events organized by belly dancers in your area that are intended as places where students can gain some performing experience in front of an audience. Such events are often called "haflas". Perhaps you could connect with someone who organizes those and look for opportunities to participate?
 

Dunyah

New member
I really think that OP is in dancing in a vacuum, as was mentioned by Tiziri, and this is the root of a lot of the problem she is having here. I almost wonder if she has seen live belly dance performances. There is so much about stage presence and performance skills that isn't apparent in videos, which is probably her main source of input so far.

Esmeralda, I hope you will find a live dance teacher and pursue your love of the dance. Learning about this dance is a never-ending quest - there is always more to learn. You have only made the tiniest scratch on the surface so far. I hope you don't quit now.

When you perform you are open to all sorts of critique AND criticism, you have to have a thick skin to handle that as a professional dancer. No matter how good you are, there is always somebody who dislikes your style, and somebody who likes it very much. You will probably never get 100% positive feedback from people who are being honest with you.
 

Sophia Maria

New member
I honestly thought the belly dance community would be a lot more nicer, Belly dance is my passion, dancing is my passion as ive loved it since i was a little girl and im going to keep at it every day and do it the way my intuition tells me, ill let that guide me from now on.

Most of what needs to be said has already been said. I personally gave you pretty positive constructive criticism I think, and I am more than a little uncomfortable because I seem to have been lumped into a group of "bitchy and judgmental" dancers.

(I don't know if the OP is still following this; I hope she's still willing to listen) :confused:

You asked a honest question and we gave an honest answer. Humility and politeness are invaluable in the learning process. If you don't find it in you to be humble or polite, unfortunately you can miss important opportunities to learn.

im going to keep at it every day and do it the way my intuition tells me, ill let that guide me from now on.

Good luck. :think:
 

Kashmir

New member

Aniseteph

New member
... if I was dancing in a room full of middle easterners I might want to add some Egyptian folk style music into a set but dancing in small restaurants to middle class white people in the middle of Manchester, UK. It’s highly unlikely that those kinds of people are going to appreciate, understand or even recognise the vast variation in different belly dancing styles.

If you were dancing in a room full of middle easterners who expected a belly dancer, sticking a bit of folky music into the mix would not fool anyone. It'd be like throwing a bit of curry powder in an Irish Stew and calling it Indian.

Someone pointed out that underestimating the audience is a mistake, but you make a fair point in that they quite possibly don't know belly dance from a hole in the ground. So some restaurant owners hire meh or worse dancers who are young and cute over skilled older ones - they save a few quid, and who cares about the quality as long as they can advertise that they have a belly dancer and the punters are convinced by someone looking the part and moving about a bit?

But now those clueless white middle class folks think they've seen belly dance. If you are all technique and no soul (or vice versa), or boring, or sleazy, or too inexperienced, or plain craptastic (I am not saying you are any of these, it's just examples), people who don't know different will think that's what belly dance is.
So maybe
- they avoid the place the next time the dancer is on, maybe tell friends not to bother, and eventually the restaurant stops hiring dancers
- they won't want to hire a belly dancer for that event they were planning
- instead of thinking "ooh I fancy having a go at that" they are put off going to to those local classes.
- they are so offended by a sleazy performance that they won't hire out the church hall to that local teacher anymore, or cut the belly dance troupe from the next cultural festival, or from teaching in the local school.
- they think belly dance is basically MTV video dancing with fringe 'n' sequins.
- they think that those people in the ME have invented a really mediocre dance form. :mad:.

...and so on. In the absence other examples of belly dance in their everyday lives (normal for most of us in the UK), getting up there in public calling yourself a belly dancer can make you an important ambassador for belly dance, like it or not, and not doing a professional enough job makes you part of the problem. Expect people who care about belly dance and it's image to have opinions on that.

I agree that you don't know what you don't know - which is fine in a new student but not in someone dancing professionally.
 
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