Am i good enough to start performing at restaurants?

[gisela]

It's difficult to for us to know if the restaurant offers any nice dancing as they hardly show any bellydance performance in that video. A few seconds of snakey moves and later a few seconds of cane twirling.

Tracey Gibbs seems to be in Manchester and she is the boss of a bellydance-agent company.
Taste Of Cairo (The UK's premier belly dance agency)*-*Taste Of Cairo (The UK's premier belly dance agency)
If you want to progress to restaurant dancing why not contact her? Perhaps you could audition and either get some advice on what to work on to get to your goal or, if she thinks you have it, she might hire you. Then you'll get an agent that takes care of bookings and stuff

 

[tigerb]

On a side note this is the biggest belly dance restaurant in Manchester where I live

Video | Efes Restaurant & Taverna, Manchester

A Turkish restaurant! Very interesting! Are you planning to expand your study to Turkish dance tradition also?

 

[EsmereldaDancer1987]

So wait. Earlier upthread you said you didn't want to do baladi - a dance you'd never actually heard of till you posted and read it here - but raqs sharqi instead. Now you say you are drawn to "the older ways", dance that predates raqs sharqi - but the only influence you cite is Sadie, who is an excellent example of a contemporary American show-dancer with influences from hip hop.

It's great that you are so in touch with your occult studies and your body, but might I suggest you step outside that bubble briefly and do some reading about bellydance as well? Even Wendy Buonaventura - whose research is really bad - paints a more accurate picture of the dance over the centuries than you seem to have. If you really want to be a bellydancer, you should learn some things about bellydance. If not, perhaps you should create a new label for what it is you are doing.

That's not actually a bad idea, create my own golden ladder as The marketing expert clayton makepeace would call it, that way i'd become the authority in that area and be able to tell other people what dance is and what it isn't, how does next level 21st century belly dance fusion style sound lol joking obviously, i'd come up with a much better working title than that. Good career advice though.

Gisela and tigerb, yes and yes, i'll probably do both those things...I have heard of taste of Cairo and would like to see what they have to offer and what avenues that could lead to.

 

[Zumarrad]

A Turkish restaurant! Very interesting! Are you planning to expand your study to Turkish dance tradition also?

Is it Turkish? I thought it was Greek? *starts war*

If nothing else, though, I am a little concerned that the OP thinks the men are better bellydancers than the bellydancers who are shown momentarily. Because with the exception of that little bit of awkward hip shaking some of them are doing earlier on, the only men I see dancing in that clip are not bellydancing. Some of what they doing looks like zembekiko to me, which is WAY cool but not bellydance at all. Not tsiftitelli. Not Oryantal Tansi, not beledi, not raqs sharqi, not ATS, not tribal fusion, not what Sadie does...

And I am also saddened to report to the OP that what you see in that clip? Looks a hell of a lot like "correct bellydance etiquette" to me. That is what happens in ethnic clubs and restaurants. The circle dancing, the floor show, the interactivity. I'm sorry it's not a temple of Isis with 30ft pillars and Hossam Ramzy's 80s fusion stylings wafting through clouds of incense.

Increasingly I am getting the impression that the OP is a) a troll b) is completely misinformed as to what bellydance is and is going to have a horrible awakening when she finds out c) a troll.

 

[EsmereldaDancer1987]

Is it Turkish? I thought it was Greek? *starts war*

If nothing else, though, I am a little concerned that the OP thinks the men are better bellydancers than the bellydancers who are shown momentarily. Because with the exception of that little bit of awkward hip shaking some of them are doing earlier on, the only men I see dancing in that clip are not bellydancing. Some of what they doing looks like zembekiko to me, which is WAY cool but not bellydance at all. Not tsiftitelli. Not Oryantal Tansi, not beledi, not raqs sharqi, not ATS, not tribal fusion, not what Sadie does...

And I am also saddened to report to the OP that what you see in that clip? Looks a hell of a lot like "correct bellydance etiquette" to me. That is what happens in ethnic clubs and restaurants. The circle dancing, the floor show, the interactivity. I'm sorry it's not a temple of Isis with 30ft pillars and Hossam Ramzy's 80s fusion stylings wafting through clouds of incense.

Increasingly I am getting the impression that the OP is a) a troll b) is completely misinformed as to what bellydance is and is going to have a horrible awakening when she finds out c) a troll.

I get called a troll for having my own opinion and having an interesting discussion lol I am learning and taking on board peoples comments and criticisms, I just have a worldview that's different than most, that opens me up to criticism yeah but surely that's what makes things more interesting than just being the same and having the same opinion as everyone else. Surely? Besides I'm just defending my position, if people didn't dig their heels in then I wouldn't dig back. I'm more than willing to have a constructive conversation with someone who is open to discussing things with an open mind.

 

[Darshiva]

No, you get called a troll for being derogatory & rude to bellydance in general and in particular to the bellydancers in this thread.

 

[Dunyah]

Repeating my advice from upthread - why don't you find out who schedules the dancers at that taverna and contact that person about an audition? You would get real-world feedback, which you could benefit by. See what they say about your dancing, you aren't really listening to people here, only responding and arguing. You have no grace or humility or respect. Restaurant dancing requires a good personality, which you seem to be lacking.

 

[Zumarrad]

Esmeralda, imagine someone handed you a cupcake and then started telling you it was a steak. And insisting that it was a steak and that your statement that it was actually a cupcake was just your opinion, and that your opinion counted for nothing because you had not baked a steak out of flour and eggs in front of them, and that if you had read certain books you would know what a steak really was and that it was the ancient form of cupcake, and also, this cupcake was a steak. And those steaks you kept showing them, to indicate what a steak really looks like, were not true steaks or good examples of steaks. And a butcher came along to confirm what a steak was, and explained what made a good steak, and the person STILL refused to believe a steak was not a cupcake, and insulted the butcher and all meat to boot.

That's what you are doing.

 

[mahsati_janan]

Once you've done a full multi-disciplinary study into ancient cultures and pre-history civilisations then we can talk about what's fantasy and what's only just been created in the last 100 or so years.

I asked for real references from people who have researched and studied topics on history, archaeology, anthropology, or academic disciplines because those are necessary to begin to understand what came before us. Your statement is completely inappropriate because you are actually talking to people on this board who have professional experience, not just as dancers, but as researchers in this field. I can tell you that these people, including me, have done a great deal of multi-disciplinary study. If you are serious about history, I suggest that you look at sources that cover historical record rather than philosophy or mysticism.

mahsati_janan, that's actually a good point, if I was to dance in specific restaurants that had heavy tradition for specific cultures then I would take the time to learn about that style of dance before I danced in their. The point I was making is that I'm just in the stage of learning the principles of dance at the moment so once I've built a wide and large vocabulary then when I get out in the field it'll make it easier to begin speaking in different languages. Maybe not fluently at first but after time that fluency will come.

The point is that you are *not* learning those principles. The principles of this dance include technique, musicality, artistry, costuming, cultural knowledge, and a willingness to learn and respect the cultures involved in both the creation and ongoing evolution of this dance. You are specifically choosing not to do that. What you would be presenting as belly dance would be as incorrect as if you billed it as ballet or flamenco.

This is the kind of restaurant I had in mind with my initial question in this thread just to build up my experience dancing in public before finding somewhere with extra style and sophistication.

There is no situation wherein a professional dancer should go and give an uninformed and inappropriate show. Whether it is your local hookah bar or the world stage, when you present yourself as a professional dancer, you need to have the appropriate skills and knowledge. If you are willing to present yourself as such falsely, then you are in no way ready to be a professional in any sense of the word.

 

[shiradotnet]

To me Belly dance is a form of art and expression that leads us into heightened states of spirituality and awareness as the shamans and priests would have done in antiquity.

Hi Esmerelda! One of the things that makes discussions like this difficult is that "dance" (in the generic sense) can be either:

1. Something done to satisfy the internal, psychic needs of the dancer (sacred dance, or therapeutic dance)

2. Something done as a social activity (going out clubbing, getting up on the dance floor at a wedding)

3. Something done as a performance in front of an audience - ie, a performing art

You have shared how #1 has shaped the role of dance in your life. Sacred dance is very much a part of many people's lives, and many of us here in this forum have experienced the ecstatic state that can be reached through dancing. (Again, I'm referring to "dance" generically, not belly dance specifically.) Sometimes we have accidentally achieved that state while doing #3, while other times we have found the ecstatic state through some kind of movement meditation (sacred dance) in the privacy of our homes.

The social dance, #2, is a big part of Middle Eastern culture today. It's also a big part of today's belly dance scene. Honestly, a big part of why belly dance hobbyists stay with the dance is because of the social aspect. But, a person can experience the social benefits of belly dance without performing in public, in front of strangers. It's not necessary to have wondrous technique and theater skills in order to enjoy a dance social event with friends.

The problem arises when people whose dance skills are perfect for #1 or #2 then become interested in performing publicly. And that's what sparked this lively thread - your stated desire to perform in a public environment. Once a dancer expects strangers to give her their attention, she crosses into a situation where the requirements are different from #1 or #2.

In any event, if you find that the movement methods of belly dance are useful to you in your spiritual path, then that is a perfectly valid thing for you to explore. But the resulting dance that you do probably isn't something most of us would categorize as "belly dance" - instead, the category would be "sacred dance". Even if built on the same basic movement vocabulary.

Alot of people talk about having rapport with the audience in order to be a good performer but for me the only rapport that really matters is the rapport that we have with the deepest and most profound aspects of ourselves.

I agree with you that a person who is deeply troubled in her own psyche will find it difficult to perform for others in a way that touches them.

 

[shiradotnet]

On a different note, as you continue your journey with Middle Eastern dance forms, you may find it inspiring to explore Guedra or zar, which are women's rituals - Guedra comes from Morocco, and zar from Egypt & Sudan.

I'm not saying this is a requirement for learning to belly dance or anything, just offering it as a suggestion for something you might enjoy.

 

[Aniseteph]

I don't know that much about Hula, but my first thought is NO. The dance form comes from a different culture. The music and the meaning in the moves are different. Hula is its own art form specific to the Hawaiian Islands.

Exactly. Anyone with a clue about either form would agree. The OP said "In this day and age the term Belly dance is an umbrella term for various styles of dance that fit within the category of moving your belly to dance." If it's that general it's completely meaningless, isn't it?

 

[EsmereldaDancer1987]

Repeating my advice from upthread - why don't you find out who schedules the dancers at that taverna and contact that person about an audition? You would get real-world feedback, which you could benefit by. See what they say about your dancing, you aren't really listening to people here, only responding and arguing. You have no grace or humility or respect. Restaurant dancing requires a good personality, which you seem to be lacking.

Your right, I apologise so how do we move forward as a community to find some common ground and develop some supportive tact while communicating with each other in a way that respects everybody?

thankyou shiradotnet, i'll look into that

 

[Kartane]

Esmerelda - We are back to respect. If you are truly 'drawn to bellydance', you have to be drawn to the reality of it. This includes an acknowledgment of the actual cultures from which it arises, not a lost history and fantasy of it. If it is truly bellydance you care about and are interested in, understanding the value of the dance in and of itself is key. The dance does not need "fixing" or "to be elevated" or "improved" or "made to be more spiritual, womanly, goddessy, anythingy". What I have sensed in your posts is a complete lack of respect for the ACTUAL DANCE. If you want to 'just do your own thing' and base it in part in some vague bellydance inspired moves, fine. People do that all the time. But don't CALL it bellydance. Bellydance in its specific variety of styles and tones is a VALID ART UNTO ITSELF and if that is not enough for you, or anyone, then anyone is free to do 'their art', but don't label it as something it is not.

But if you really do want to learn more about bellydance, then LEARN. Take some of the advice offered here. Find a great teacher. Ask great questions and don't freak out at the answers. We don't always hear yes when we want to. We don't always get to be all that and a bag of chips. Understand that those answering you really want to help you.

If you are not interested really learning, then this whole thread is just a game of "Shapoopie Says" and we're down the rabbit hole to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emnCnT3csA8

 

[EsmereldaDancer1987]

Hello Kartane, one of my belly dance influences whose dvd's i bought as titled as a bellydance dvd is sadie. When i type belly dance into youtube the first videos that arise are sadie with 24,000,000 views. I have about 30 dvds entitled learn belly dance, not gone through them all yet lol but the ones I have watched are general belly dance, they don't go into the history or culture to the extent that the members of this forum do they just go through different moves and techniques. If what I'm learning as belly dance isn't in actual fact belly dance, why do so many people call it belly dance lol you must be able to understand my confusion?

so from now on I'll just refer to my style as sacred belly dance after the style I like in the temple of jehan dvds. I'm still going to keep the term belly dance in the title because i'm still doing shimmy's and all the other moves that originate from the belly. So from now on if I say belly dance just think sacred belly dance and their won't be any confusion.

Just found an actual dvd called tarot fantasy belly dance lol I find this style dance really cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g2aeLgI3QI

 

[Kartane]

Esmerelda - I know EXACTLY which Sadie video you are referring to. When I was first drawn to this dance, I did that exact same YouTube search and it was then, as it is now, the first to come up. I was blown away. I thought it was wonderful. I thought that and that alone was Bellydance. What I did not know, but do now, is that video is a Drum Solo in a modern American style with hip-hop inspired pop and locks.

I think what is missing in what you are learning is that from DVDs you get the 'moves'. But you are not learning the essence of how how 'the moves' become 'the dance'. DVDs can't teach you that. DVDs can drill you, in a limited way, and help you build muscle strength and control, but you can only get to 'the dance' by understanding it is more than 'the moves'. The dance is knowledge and culture and musicality and history. Real, live teachers can help you with that. When I was first starting, I had NO IDEA how much I did not know. Now I know I will NEVER know as much as I want to.

The dances you are drawn to are Fantasy Fusion, Dark Fusion and Gothic Fusion. They are not the historic reality of the dance, but modern constructions. There is nothing wrong with that, but know what they ARE. They draw on mythic stereotypes and archetypes to present an artistic vision. That is fine. But even the artists performing in those styles have enough respect for the original dance to learn it properly. To borrow Mahsati's literary metaphor, you have to learn know how to make a sentence before you can start composing in artistic sentence fragments.

And if you liked the music layered on the video link you posted, have a look at this:

Hadia Dances to Yearning - YouTube

Less is more. Pause. Feel. Drama. Passion. Joy. It's not pure classical, but it requires no gimmicks. The dance is the dance.

And on that note, good luck!

 

[Jane]

Oy vey iz mir! This thread :doh:

 

[Aniseteph]

So from now on if I say belly dance just think sacred belly dance and their won't be any confusion.

Oh yes there will. Because you are saying things like this:

As you can see, tradition and proper belly dance etiquette is the last thing these owners seem to be worried about lol

.... about that restaurant's clip. What was wrong with it? What belly dance etiquette and tradition are you talking about? Sacred belly dance etiquette?

All the more recent history, the baladi elements, the social dance - that's as real and intrinsic to the heart of belly dance as it gets. Belly dance may be different things to different people, but that stays under the umbrella no matter what. You can't say belly dance and mean "but not the ME stuff".

 

[Ariadne]

Just found an actual dvd called tarot fantasy belly dance lol I find this style dance really cool

"Tarot - Fantasy Bellydance" DVD - WorldDanceNewYork.com - belly dance - YouTube

World Dance New York has done an entire series of Fantasy and Gothic Bellydance DVD's. Some of them are performance only and some include instructions on how to perform the dances on them. But... if you really like:

For example I really love the fiery passion and playfullness of alla kushnir.

‫

or the sensuality of someone like Yana Tsehotskaya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWfEcbjU25Y

You might want to take the time to look into traditional Egyptian Raqs Sharqi. (World Dance New York also sells instruction DVD's by Ranya Renee.) Those performances you liked so much were very traditional where the Fantasy Bellydance is very contemporary. You can't get much more different without moving into experimental fusion.

And yes it is called Fantasy Bellydance/Fusion by the dancers performing it. They are well aware that it is complete fantasy with no historical basis.

 

[Afrit]

Ahhh, a 20th century creation, that's why i'm not really into that modern style...I'm more drawn to the older ways as I've already told you about. For an academic study (by the way etymologically, the word academia derives from the word trivia which means 'theoretical, not practical, not leading to a decision'). Study the works of people like Don Tolman, Manly P Hall like I've said already, hermeticism, study the ancient alchemists, study the field of nei kung and taoism and how that dates back to pre-history civilisations, study the science of buddhism and the process of enlightenment (Bill Bodris work), Santos Bonacci has some great youtube videos based on the ancient sciences. Once you've done a full multi-disciplinary study into ancient cultures and pre-history civilisations then we can talk about what's fantasy and what's only just been created in the last 100 or so years.

I thought we were talking about serious study with respected researchers not a bunch of deluded mystics.

On a side note this is the biggest belly dance restaurant in Manchester where I live

Video | Efes Restaurant & Taverna, Manchester

As you can see, tradition and proper belly dance etiquette is the last thing these owners seem to be worried about lol the men are doing better dancing than the women lol. it would be nice to have a proper cultural belly dance restaurant to work up the skill to work in my area but as you can see the standard for class isn't exactly set very high, wish I did live somewhere with a stronger tradition for this sort of thing. But what you can do, just got to adapt and roll with what you've got.

This is the kind of restaurant I had in mind with my initial question in this thread just to build up my experience dancing in public before finding somewhere with extra style and sophistication.

Guess what? This is belly dance - and this is what restaurant belly dancers are paid to do - entertain people. They aren't arrrh-tists or priestesses. They are entertainers. Looks like this one was doing a good job. People are having fun.