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  1. #71
    V.I.P. shiradotnet's Avatar
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    On a different note, as you continue your journey with Middle Eastern dance forms, you may find it inspiring to explore Guedra or zar, which are women's rituals - Guedra comes from Morocco, and zar from Egypt & Sudan.

    I'm not saying this is a requirement for learning to belly dance or anything, just offering it as a suggestion for something you might enjoy.

  2. #72
    V.I.P. Aniseteph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kartane View Post
    I don't know that much about Hula, but my first thought is NO. The dance form comes from a different culture. The music and the meaning in the moves are different. Hula is its own art form specific to the Hawaiian Islands.
    Exactly. Anyone with a clue about either form would agree. The OP said "In this day and age the term Belly dance is an umbrella term for various styles of dance that fit within the category of moving your belly to dance." If it's that general it's completely meaningless, isn't it?

  3. #73
    Junior Member EsmereldaDancer1987's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunyah View Post
    Repeating my advice from upthread - why don't you find out who schedules the dancers at that taverna and contact that person about an audition? You would get real-world feedback, which you could benefit by. See what they say about your dancing, you aren't really listening to people here, only responding and arguing. You have no grace or humility or respect. Restaurant dancing requires a good personality, which you seem to be lacking.
    Your right, I apologise so how do we move forward as a community to find some common ground and develop some supportive tact while communicating with each other in a way that respects everybody?

    thankyou shiradotnet, i'll look into that

  4. #74
    Member Kartane's Avatar
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    Esmerelda - We are back to respect. If you are truly 'drawn to bellydance', you have to be drawn to the reality of it. This includes an acknowledgment of the actual cultures from which it arises, not a lost history and fantasy of it. If it is truly bellydance you care about and are interested in, understanding the value of the dance in and of itself is key. The dance does not need "fixing" or "to be elevated" or "improved" or "made to be more spiritual, womanly, goddessy, anythingy". What I have sensed in your posts is a complete lack of respect for the ACTUAL DANCE. If you want to 'just do your own thing' and base it in part in some vague bellydance inspired moves, fine. People do that all the time. But don't CALL it bellydance. Bellydance in its specific variety of styles and tones is a VALID ART UNTO ITSELF and if that is not enough for you, or anyone, then anyone is free to do 'their art', but don't label it as something it is not.

    But if you really do want to learn more about bellydance, then LEARN. Take some of the advice offered here. Find a great teacher. Ask great questions and don't freak out at the answers. We don't always hear yes when we want to. We don't always get to be all that and a bag of chips. Understand that those answering you really want to help you.

    If you are not interested really learning, then this whole thread is just a game of "Shapoopie Says" and we're down the rabbit hole to:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emnCnT3csA8

  5. #75
    Junior Member EsmereldaDancer1987's Avatar
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    Hello Kartane, one of my belly dance influences whose dvd's i bought as titled as a bellydance dvd is sadie. When i type belly dance into youtube the first videos that arise are sadie with 24,000,000 views. I have about 30 dvds entitled learn belly dance, not gone through them all yet lol but the ones I have watched are general belly dance, they don't go into the history or culture to the extent that the members of this forum do they just go through different moves and techniques. If what I'm learning as belly dance isn't in actual fact belly dance, why do so many people call it belly dance lol you must be able to understand my confusion?

    so from now on I'll just refer to my style as sacred belly dance after the style I like in the temple of jehan dvds. I'm still going to keep the term belly dance in the title because i'm still doing shimmy's and all the other moves that originate from the belly. So from now on if I say belly dance just think sacred belly dance and their won't be any confusion.

    Just found an actual dvd called tarot fantasy belly dance lol I find this style dance really cool

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g2aeLgI3QI
    Last edited by EsmereldaDancer1987; 01-18-2013 at 01:19 AM.

  6. #76
    Member Kartane's Avatar
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    Esmerelda - I know EXACTLY which Sadie video you are referring to. When I was first drawn to this dance, I did that exact same YouTube search and it was then, as it is now, the first to come up. I was blown away. I thought it was wonderful. I thought that and that alone was Bellydance. What I did not know, but do now, is that video is a Drum Solo in a modern American style with hip-hop inspired pop and locks.

    I think what is missing in what you are learning is that from DVDs you get the 'moves'. But you are not learning the essence of how how 'the moves' become 'the dance'. DVDs can't teach you that. DVDs can drill you, in a limited way, and help you build muscle strength and control, but you can only get to 'the dance' by understanding it is more than 'the moves'. The dance is knowledge and culture and musicality and history. Real, live teachers can help you with that. When I was first starting, I had NO IDEA how much I did not know. Now I know I will NEVER know as much as I want to.

    The dances you are drawn to are Fantasy Fusion, Dark Fusion and Gothic Fusion. They are not the historic reality of the dance, but modern constructions. There is nothing wrong with that, but know what they ARE. They draw on mythic stereotypes and archetypes to present an artistic vision. That is fine. But even the artists performing in those styles have enough respect for the original dance to learn it properly. To borrow Mahsati's literary metaphor, you have to learn know how to make a sentence before you can start composing in artistic sentence fragments.

    And if you liked the music layered on the video link you posted, have a look at this:

    Hadia Dances to Yearning - YouTube

    Less is more. Pause. Feel. Drama. Passion. Joy. It's not pure classical, but it requires no gimmicks. The dance is the dance.

    And on that note, good luck!
    Last edited by Kartane; 01-18-2013 at 02:03 AM.

  7. #77
    V.I.P. Jane's Avatar
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    Oy vey iz mir! This thread

  8. #78
    V.I.P. Aniseteph's Avatar
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    So from now on if I say belly dance just think sacred belly dance and their won't be any confusion.
    Oh yes there will. Because you are saying things like this:

    As you can see, tradition and proper belly dance etiquette is the last thing these owners seem to be worried about lol
    .... about that restaurant's clip. What was wrong with it? What belly dance etiquette and tradition are you talking about? Sacred belly dance etiquette?

    All the more recent history, the baladi elements, the social dance - that's as real and intrinsic to the heart of belly dance as it gets. Belly dance may be different things to different people, but that stays under the umbrella no matter what. You can't say belly dance and mean "but not the ME stuff".

  9. #79
    V.I.P. Ariadne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsmereldaDancer1987 View Post
    Just found an actual dvd called tarot fantasy belly dance lol I find this style dance really cool

    "Tarot - Fantasy Bellydance" DVD - WorldDanceNewYork.com - belly dance - YouTube
    World Dance New York has done an entire series of Fantasy and Gothic Bellydance DVD's. Some of them are performance only and some include instructions on how to perform the dances on them. But... if you really like:
    Quote Originally Posted by EsmereldaDancer1987 View Post
    For example I really love the fiery passion and playfullness of alla kushnir.

    ‫

    or the sensuality of someone like Yana Tsehotskaya

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWfEcbjU25Y
    You might want to take the time to look into traditional Egyptian Raqs Sharqi. (World Dance New York also sells instruction DVD's by Ranya Renee.) Those performances you liked so much were very traditional where the Fantasy Bellydance is very contemporary. You can't get much more different without moving into experimental fusion.

    And yes it is called Fantasy Bellydance/Fusion by the dancers performing it. They are well aware that it is complete fantasy with no historical basis.

  10. #80
    Member Afrit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsmereldaDancer1987 View Post
    Ahhh, a 20th century creation, that's why i'm not really into that modern style...I'm more drawn to the older ways as I've already told you about. For an academic study (by the way etymologically, the word academia derives from the word trivia which means 'theoretical, not practical, not leading to a decision'). Study the works of people like Don Tolman, Manly P Hall like I've said already, hermeticism, study the ancient alchemists, study the field of nei kung and taoism and how that dates back to pre-history civilisations, study the science of buddhism and the process of enlightenment (Bill Bodris work), Santos Bonacci has some great youtube videos based on the ancient sciences. Once you've done a full multi-disciplinary study into ancient cultures and pre-history civilisations then we can talk about what's fantasy and what's only just been created in the last 100 or so years.
    I thought we were talking about serious study with respected researchers not a bunch of deluded mystics.
    Quote Originally Posted by EsmereldaDancer1987 View Post
    On a side note this is the biggest belly dance restaurant in Manchester where I live

    Video | Efes Restaurant & Taverna, Manchester

    As you can see, tradition and proper belly dance etiquette is the last thing these owners seem to be worried about lol the men are doing better dancing than the women lol. it would be nice to have a proper cultural belly dance restaurant to work up the skill to work in my area but as you can see the standard for class isn't exactly set very high, wish I did live somewhere with a stronger tradition for this sort of thing. But what you can do, just got to adapt and roll with what you've got.

    This is the kind of restaurant I had in mind with my initial question in this thread just to build up my experience dancing in public before finding somewhere with extra style and sophistication.
    Guess what? This is belly dance - and this is what restaurant belly dancers are paid to do - entertain people. They aren't arrrh-tists or priestesses. They are entertainers. Looks like this one was doing a good job. People are having fun.

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