A question regarding the music and the moves

[Aniseteph]

Holy balls :shok: I just went to the FCBD site and saw all this new stuff about "Devotion" (trademarked by the way), vegan-ism, and Buddhism. "Are you devoted?" is super-imposed over hands in a prayer position. I'm not sure what to make of this. I thought this was a dance style I don't know about anyone else but this weirded me out a bit.

Ah, it's yet another creative way to fund a show. There is a lot of it about. Shifting tickets or the prospect of shifting tickets is not enough these days.

Interestingly did you see the tree picture? - Fat Chance Belly Dance :: Devotion
Oriental belly dance is one of four "roots", but still gets it's name kept, unlike the other three.

I was looking for the quotes mentioned earlier on the FCBD site and I got a bit distracted. I can't find the quote, where do I look?

The quotes are from a link on their history page - "A History of American Tribal Style BellyDance" by Rina Orellana Rall

 

[shiradotnet]

Interestingly did you see the tree picture? - Fat Chance Belly Dance :: Devotion
Oriental belly dance is one of four "roots", but still gets it's name kept, unlike the other three.

The quotes are from a link on their history page - "A History of American Tribal Style BellyDance" by Rina Orellana Rall

Yeah, why call it American Tribal Style Bellydance if Oriental belly dance is only 25% of the root system? Why not American Tribal Style Flamenco or American Tribal Style Indian?

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

She is very creative and you may or may not like her ideas, but dayum that woman can dance! I would never, ever mention her name is the same sentence as Dolphina.

I second that. Also she can teach.

She did THE most fabulous restaurant show I've ever seen, at a Persian restaurant/club in Seattle. Her energy and control of the crowd were amazing, she had EVERYONE eating out of her hand and all the little kids in the place were running after her to bring her tips. Her daughter told me that all the other dancers at that venue would beg the owner not to make them dance after Delilah. Nobody could create that kind of excitement. She has an amazing figure and gorgeous costumes, as well.

Yes -- whatever her personal beliefs may be, or how she markets her classes (and hey, she didn't invent the weight belt. I'd heard of dancers in the 70s using them) she is one FINE dancer.

She also teaches great workshops. So I'm a fan, even though some of what she has said over the years is not currently "in" or "pc." (I'm always a little surprised at the hostility with which some dancers react to any suggestion of "spirituality" connected to the dance). I hadn't heard that quote about belly dance using the movements of strippers, cootch, etc. I don't like that too much, but hey, it could have been something she said a long time ago. I'll give her a little slack because she's a dance genius.

I hadn't heard the stripper thing either, but I do know she puts a lot of stock into using bellydance as part of your spiritual practice, which I'm fine with -- and it's not like her shows or her workshops really focus on that aspect.


I went to her caravan tour about a decade ago and came away with a completely different understanding of what movement "felt like" emotionally. Plus, I got to dance to live music (Sirocco) which was amazing.

What I've noticed about all the "moves" Delilah teaches on her videos and taught in class is that they're almost all variations of our "regulation" movements -- I mean what is a horizontal Big Loop, Little Loop but a version of a jewel? And her musicality is amazing. She may not dance exactly the way an Egyptian would dance, but that woman IS the music. She explained to us her process, and it's really an incredible way to unite with the music. I still apply her techniques, even though I've changed styles a couple of times since I saw her last.

There certainly are dancers to be scoffed at, but I agree that Delilah is not one of them.

 

[Jane]

The quotes are from a link on their history page - "A History of American Tribal Style BellyDance" by Rina Orellana Rall

Okay, I just read the Rall article. I think the sources she cited speak for themselves. I'm surprised Wikipedia and past life regressions weren't cited too. Only *one* actual history book was used for the entire article.

My personal fav:
"Bellydance has progressed on its own in the last hundred years from being a gypsy dance meant to entice soldiers to empty their pockets, to being a cabaret dance form with Hollywood as its influence."

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Yeah, why call it American Tribal Style Bellydance if Oriental belly dance is only 25% of the root system? Why not American Tribal Style Flamenco or American Tribal Style Indian?

Okay, I really don't understand her tree. I'm taking some exposure ATS classes, so I am BY NO MEANS an expert at anything Fat Chance, or anything beyond basically the content of her first 5 videos, but what I've learned is plain old straight up Salimpour style bellydance with a slight twist.

There is no Flamenco in it. I've had Flamenco. There might be a "FLAVOR" of Flamenco, but to credit Flamenco with being 1/4 of the content is misrepresentation.

Also, North African folk? Um, where? Everything I've learned is again straight up Jamila stuff -- and to say Jamila "borrows" a step from folk dance is really misleading. It's not used in the same way, it's not used to the same music, it doesn't have the feeling of how it's used in culture. I mean, hip twists DO exist outside of Tunisian dance, and they've been a part of American belly dance since the beginning. Same with the "ghawazee shimmy," pelvic drops that you also happen to see in Ouled Nail dance, and the Libyan Bedouin "bicycle hip" thing, that has also been in American bellydance since antiquity. lol.

One step -- kathak -- might be from Classical Indian. It's also used in Turkish folk dance so ... ?


Again, I'm no expert because I have never studied with Carolena, and I don't know what new things she's brought to the table in the last 5 years, but the core syllabus that was ATS -- and I will continue to argue this -- is all Jamila Salimpour format, modified slightly. And Jamila Salimpour format does not equal "Flamenco," or "Classical Indian" or "North African." It is/was HER style of flat out bellydance.

ATS SHOULD just be plain old belly dance, with the twist of instead of trying to achieve "tarab," you're trying to achieve physical and emotional union with the other dancers. I respect that as a goal -- if it's stated as such.

I would say it's modified belly dance for the purpose of achieving harmony and union with each other, rather than with the music. But I guess that's not the definition of belly dance. :think:

(I feel like I'm onto something here, but I can't grasp it.)

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Okay, I just read the Rall article. I think the sources she cited speak for themselves. I'm surprised Wikipedia and past life regressions weren't cited too. Only *one* actual history book was used for the entire article.

My personal fav:
"Bellydance has progressed on its own in the last hundred years from being a gypsy dance meant to entice soldiers to empty their pockets, to being a cabaret dance form with Hollywood as its influence."

Really -- Deliberate Ignorance is DELIBERATE!!!

This kind of crap infuriates me. People: It is NOT HARD to find REAL sources -- to find out the REAL history of the Awalim and the expulsion from Cairo, or the history of the Casino Opera or WHATEVER!!!!! GRRRR!

It yanks my chain that people continue to spout nonsense just because it fits with their personal prejudices of how the world should be, or history should have been.

/rant

 

[shiradotnet]

There is no Flamenco in it. I've had Flamenco. There might be a "FLAVOR" of Flamenco, but to credit Flamenco with being 1/4 of the content is misrepresentation.

I tend to agree with that. But I DO think the flamenco influence can be seen in the posture, the hand floreos, and the mood/attitude/persona. I suppose you could say the ruffled flowered skirts show a bit of flamenco influence as well.

Also, North African folk? Um, where?

I wondered that too. I suppose you could say that the painted-on fake tattoos on the faces are North African influence - that's an aspect of Jamila's aesthetic I wish the tribal crowd would abandon.

One step -- kathak -- might be from Classical Indian. It's also used in Turkish folk dance so ... ?

I don't know enough about Indian classical to comment on the role of movement (or not), but there's a HUGE influence from India on the costuming. I don't think I ever knew anybody to use cholis for belly dance at all until after FatChance came to prominence. Same for textiles - people might have used the occasional glitter scarf from India in costuming, but not traditional textile pieces like torans or Rajasthani shawls.

I would say it's modified belly dance for the purpose of achieving harmony and union with each other, rather than with the music or the audience. But I guess that's not the definition of belly dance.

See what I added in bold.

 

[gisela]

Masha Archer, from the Fat Chance website:

"She feels that Middle Easterners are unfit for the job of caretakers of this dance. The culture is ashamed of the dance and abusive towards women. Also, the dance has been controlled by their government and disrespected by male club owners. She feels that American women have honored it more and deserve to adopt it."

If that is a direct quote, I find it quite shockingly disrespectful and rather racist. It treats Middle Eastern people as a homogeneous mass who apparently 'don't deserve' their own culture. Patronising colonialism at its best...

Worryingly, I've heard what seem to me to be similar sentiments, albeit less offensively worded, from a respected (non-tribal) UK teacher.

I've heard a similar sentiment from another serious and respected teacher In writing even!

 

[Zumarrad]

Quote from Zumarrad (something odd is happening to page 10 at the moment)

"I have met Delilah and listened to her talking about her process, and she said a very interesting thing: she "learned" to do a Turkish drop in performance, trying it for the first time while she was on stage. She remarked that the way she learned to dance, you would spend a very long time actually warming up during your dance. They were after all dancing 40 minute sets. She said the pace of breathing, the duration of the action all led to a somewhat meditative and physically ready state that meant that one night, it was the right time in the music for a Turkish drop and she thought "I can do it" and she did. Today most of us don't have that luxurious perfect storm of circumstance: some comparatively simple movements, a musically-dictated structure, the energy of a band behind us and an audience in front of us, the freedom to play with what we know, and enough time to chill out about it. ETA Oh, and the ability, provided we don't completely suck and/or are not completely hideous, to spend three shows a night, six nights a week honing our approach in this way over years!"

Uhh, not making any claims or allegations about anyone specific as I don't know any of them personally, but that slow-build, blissed-out way of doing things sounds like it may have had some herbal help

I am sure in some dancers' cases in the 70s it did. But I would argue that it's entirely possible to reach such a state by dancing for 40 minutes with a band and with an audience without getting stoned to do it. Getting stoned can be part of the tarab experience, but it's not obligatory. There are people who can't achieve anything without "herbal help" I suppose. I've achieved blissed-out and highly embodied experiences before without being stoned. I would find it rather hard to dance well if I was stoned.

 

[teela]

I so hate when people readjust history to fit their opinions and preconceived notions of what it should be. Even decide that the dance form as is does not meet their ideas of what it should be and make changes so it fits them. The last time I went to a show with ATS, I got rather bored as the music was rather tedious and the Fusion presented had no resemblance to what I think of as belly dance. How can you call it bellydance if it has few moves that are belly dance, costumes that belong to another genre and the music is something else. To be bellydance, I need to see the moves and if I close my eyes, the music should evoke exotic images of the Middle East. Personally, I love dancing to ME music because so much of it has so many layers that I can choose which to dance too. Some of the newer fusion music lacks the layers and nuances. Just my opinion.

 

[DancingArabian]

Regarding the Devotion tree...
Are all the things in the leaves various types of tribal? I've honestly never heard of a few of them. Would someone in the know mind explaining what each is?

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I think they're meant to be various types -- but it's really vague:

Tribaret -- we pretty much all agree is a costuming style, that references old school (60s and 70s belly dance, with coins and cowrie shells rather than beads or sequins.) A lot of people say it's an earthier style, but I tend to wonder how exactly they define "earthy." We always used to cite Ansuya as tribaret costuming -- typical ATS elements in an otherwise "cabaret" costume.

Combo Based Tribal -- group improv but they cue combinations rather than individual movements.

Improvised Tribal Style -- ATS but with a slightly different movement vocabulary. Gypsy Caravan, Black Sheep, etc. Group Improv with different movements.

All the other terminology is so vague or hotly debated, that we can't actually define them. A lot of them, like Tribal Fusion or East Coast Tribal were just marketing phrases that got popular. Urban and alternative -- no clue. I would assume maybe urban tribal has a heavy hiphop influence?

"Alternative Tribal" probably means whoever's currently popular's particular iteration of "experimental dance" this week.

 

[Jane]

"Devotion" trademarked.

Don't drink the Kool-Aid!

 

[Ariadne]

Regarding the Devotion tree...
Are all the things in the leaves various types of tribal? I've honestly never heard of a few of them. Would someone in the know mind explaining what each is?

ITS: Any other style that isn't ATS but follows a similar group improv format (Gypsy Caravan, Black Sheep, etc.).

Tribaret: Originally a costuming style sometimes referred to as sparkly tribal. Now also a group improv style like ATS/ITS but with a "cabaret" vocabulary.

Combo Based Tribal: (see Aziyade's answer)

Tribal Fusion: A solo improv style fusing ATS, Oriental, and club dancing.

East Coast Tribal: A style of Tribal Fusion found on the US east coast often with an industrial flavor to it.

Alternative Tribal: This is the experimental Tribal Fusion category. You never know what you're going to get fused with it and nothing is off limits.

Urban Tribal: Alternative fusion dance with a strong Industrial and/or techno influence. Differs from East Coast Tribal in that there is little to no bellydance vocabulary left.

Most Alternative and Urban Tribal and some East Coast Tribal are no longer bellydance. If you look at the chart below they fall into the "Interpretive Fusion" bubble.

 

[Aniseteph]

(Is anyone else getting ads for tree root removal now? :lol

 

[Dunyah]

Ariadne, that chart is brilliant - where did you find that?

 

[Ariadne]

It was made by Nadira Jamal. She's the one who has made the "Improvisational Toolkit" DVD's and the "Personal Style Snafus" that everyone has been discussing. She has a website called Taktaba that is worth checking out that includes 3 free video podcasts that lay the groundwork for her DVD's. While I was diving into the site I found her Venn Diagram link. Since she has it listed as Creative Commons I've made a copy of the file to keep on hand whenever I need to refer to it.

Yes, I am advertising her work. Check it out if you haven't already.

 

[befree]

American Tribal Style dance, as developed by its founder, Carolena Nericcio, is not now, nor has ever been, a member of the Communist Party, racist, or a kool-aid drinking cult.
After reading thru posts here, I now know and think I understand the POV that "belly dance" only refers to 1930-1990s "golden-age" style raks sharki/beledi/shaabi, performed only to Middle Eastern music using traditional instruments and rhythms (don't agree with this POV, but understand the logic)
But the assumptions in a few posts really got under my skin. I see nothing religious or cult-like on the FCBD website. "Devotion" is the name of the annual dance showcase FCBD puts on every year, and every year they pick a theme...this year looks like "Family Tree" is the theme, including "dance forms with roots from the Middle East." Why is this okay when another dancer draws it in a Venn diagram as above (brilliant, btw...I'm gonna check out her website), and evil when FCBD does it in a drawing? The "Namaste" palms-together pose used in a photo isn't offensive or overtly religious to me, even though it comes from a different religion than my own.
The link to info about veganism is, I believe, because this is the diet the FCBD founder credits as having very beneficial health effects for her, and she wants to share that good info.
American Tribal Style's mother was, indeed, Jamila Salimpour. Carolena makes this clear and credits Jamila every chance she gets. She also credits Jamila's student, Masha Archer, who was Carolena's first teacher. Ms Archer's views about the future of belly dance and the role of women in Middle Eastern societies today were her own opinions, and I have not heard them repeated or espoused by FCBD.
ATS and all its products, including the Devotion yearly show, are always trademarked now because Carolena, the founder of American Tribal Style, disagreed with a big wave of other dancers shooting off into tribal fusion, goth tribal, tribaret, etc., and calling it American Tribal Style. And these dancers were misleading the public, calling their dance something that it isn't, trading on the reputation of the powerful name of her dance. Sound familiar?

 

[Aniseteph]

... every year they pick a theme...this year looks like "Family Tree" is the theme, including "dance forms with roots from the Middle East." Why is this okay when another dancer draws it in a Venn diagram as above (brilliant, btw...I'm gonna check out her website), and evil when FCBD does it in a drawing?

OK that was me bringing the tree up - I never said it was evil, just pointing out that only one of four roots gets its name perpetuated.

...the POV that "belly dance" only refers to 1930-1990s "golden-age" style raks sharki/beledi/shaabi, performed only to Middle Eastern music using traditional instruments and rhythms (don't agree with this POV, but understand the logic)

Did anyone actually say that?

 

[Darshiva]

Antiseph, nope, nobody said it was golden-age only. The only thing remotely close was the venn diagram and that suggested that the further bellydance got from the source, the more experimental it got. That's it.

If anything, this thread has managed to persuade me that it's okay to refer to tribal as bellydance because of the Jamila Salimpour heritage thing.

Funny how people can get so tetchy over the most minor of things, eh?