Thoughts on Size

[BigJim]

I am presently working on putting together a new solo for an upcoming show. As I was putting some moves together I started to think about my body size (extra large) and how the moves were looking. For me a chest lift or a hip slide covers alot of ground.... a smaller dancer might have a chest lift of 2-3" vertical but a larger dancer might have a 4-5" lift. Because of the extra distance involved it takes just that little bit more time to accomplish the move. I'm feeling that I've got to be moving faster to get to the same place a smaller dancer would get to over a 4 count....

The question becomes "should I be reducing the size of the move... or keep the move at the maximum but work faster to have the same flow?"

I'm not sure if I've explained this well enough but am interested in any thoughts the Forum members have on this.... thanks Jim

 

[Zorba]

I understand *exactly* what you're getting at...

I had a very experienced, old skool teacher explain it to me this way:

There's "big girl" technique, and "little girl" technique. Trying to keep up with a "little girl" will make a "big girl" (or guy like me!) look sloppy. At the same time, a "little girl" can't move the same absolute distance someone larger can.

Like everything else, there is a balance. If you're feeling rushed, you probably are and you won't look all that great. Reduce the size of the move. But if you feel OK with the speed, keeping the move larger will show it better. There's no hard and fast rules - I've found watching/studying with larger dancers helped the most. I was studying with a founding member of the four-foot-nine club for quite a while - I learned a lot but was sloppy. My current main teacher is five-foot-eight, and her movement style works mo' bettah for me.

 

[Zumarrad]

I am a huge person and I look awful if I try to dance faster.

Believe me, slow down and accept the "less is more" mantra. Besides, dancing out of time to the music is never good.

 

[Kashmir]

I don't think you need to always use the full range of your movement. Two inches is two inches no matter what the body size - either people will see it or not. I'd make the moves small and crisp when you want speed then occasionally wow them with a few full range movements.

 

[shiradotnet]

I always tell my students that with slow music, it's possible to use one's full range of motion, but with faster music, it's better to make the moves smaller so one can keep up with the music. When somebody does use the full range of motion to fast music, it can end up looking as though the dancer is beating the music to death.

I think it's good when drilling to work on expanding the range of motion to its fullest because doing so increases muscle flexibility and control. That flexibility control contributes to excellent dance technique even when you don't use the full range in actual performance.

 

[Aniseteph]

Interesting thread! I'd never even thought about big vs. little dancer differences, but it makes sense.

When I watch my (larger) self I am always surprised how huge the movements look. I'm not meaning to do it that big, but that's how it comes out. I could do things half the size and still have them show up. It's something I want to work on.

Reading this thread I wonder if it's related to having learnt from a teacher who is the same height as me more or less but not so, um.. Junoesque? She says to make things smaller when you do them faster, but when you are learning and getting it in your muscle memory you are trying to do what Shira just described - the full range. So the bigger move is what I default to.

I've never really thought about the implications on choreography, apart from that chest lift sequences on her look cute and on me look borderline vulgar/ comic, and usually sloppy. This explains it. I'm convinced shimmy technique is affected too - the physics of different frame sizes and wobble-able load have to affect what's needed to shimmy it.

Heyyyy, maybe this is why I've always disliked (choreographed) drum solos. :think: A smaller person's choreo or approach is going to be hard work and maybe look terrible anyway. Improv with live drummer OTOH - love love LOVE!!!!

 

[walladah]

Work bothways!

I know that it sounds as too much work, but you need to be able to do both, i.e. reduce the size of the movement while keeping it clear and precise, or keep the size of the movement, while keeping up with the rythm and gracefulness so that it does not become vulgar or aggressive.

If this seems unfair for big girls, i can share with you what little girls face:

a) first they need to understand that if they are the littlest in a group or course, they need to slow down their rythm so that they do not miss the general pace

b) they need to work hard very hard to make their movements bigger, while keeping them graceful and precise

c) they also need to work in a way that when dancing with other girls of various shapes, so that they do not like "clumsy adolescents interfering with women's dancing".

If you share your questions with the other dancers in your group, they will become aware no matter what size they are, that you all together need to coordinate yourselves, in terms of movement size and in terms of movement pace.

And, there is always a good argument for the little girls not to go too fast: their movement becomes much more feminine and relaxed when they follow the general pattern. Oh, by the way, the general pattern of oriental dance is for full figured women... [i am writing all this as a little girl]

 

[Munniko]

I like this idea because I was at a hafla last night and watched a troupe of three women perform who were a big girl, a little girl, and an in between girl. It was interesting to watch how they all worked to try and stay uniform.

As a big little girl (I'm petite, but not a small size) I can tell you it really has helped me to start taking lessons from someone of a similar shape to myself because I can see the moves better than on other teachers who are taller than me.

 

[Zorba]

I always tell my students that with slow music, it's possible to use one's full range of motion, but with faster music, it's better to make the moves smaller so one can keep up with the music. When somebody does use the full range of motion to fast music, it can end up looking as though the dancer is beating the music to death.

Click.

I've been saying for many years that I have a tendency to "bludgeon a delicate move to death". Now I know why - I'd never made the connection! Thank you Shira!

 

[Jane]

I'm short with a medium build (see avatar.) I agree larger and taller dancer's movements are easier to see from a distance. I have to make things a little bigger for stage. Close up, I like to keep things small and precise. If the move is small and precise, it will be seen. When I dance, size of movement is more in response to the volume in the music. If a sound is louder, I make that movement bigger and when the sound decreases, I make that part smaller. I let the music guide me unless there is a specific reason not to. I don't generally dance in a group unless it's with my students, then I tone it down anyway.

 

[Zumarrad]

I dance tiny. It doesn't look tiny. I use my imaginary boy hips, ie dance quite a lot inside my hip bones, and my giant slabs of hip go along for the ride. I am often shocked at how large a movement I make looks, when I know it is small small small.

So I don't think a bigger dancer "should" dance big. We don't need to. And yes, I am afraid that I DO think the faster the movement the smaller it must become. We can slow down a shimmy to drill so we don't lose that loosey-goosey feeling or the timing of it, but when it speeds up it gets smaller. It has to. There is less time for you to make the full range move.

What taller dancers CAN do is make very simple movements look huge and grandiose. If I raise my arms it's MASSIVE. Useful for drama.

 

[Yame]

I am presently working on putting together a new solo for an upcoming show. As I was putting some moves together I started to think about my body size (extra large) and how the moves were looking. For me a chest lift or a hip slide covers alot of ground.... a smaller dancer might have a chest lift of 2-3" vertical but a larger dancer might have a 4-5" lift. Because of the extra distance involved it takes just that little bit more time to accomplish the move. I'm feeling that I've got to be moving faster to get to the same place a smaller dancer would get to over a 4 count....

The question becomes "should I be reducing the size of the move... or keep the move at the maximum but work faster to have the same flow?"

I'm not sure if I've explained this well enough but am interested in any thoughts the Forum members have on this.... thanks Jim

I don't understand your post. Are you talking about height, or weight?

It makes sense if you are talking about height. A taller dancer has more inches to cover on a move like a chest lift. But if you are talking about weight, I don't understand how being heavier translates into having more inches to cover on a chest lift. It only translates into having more weight to lift, no?

I think each should be talked about separately. Regarding height, I think taller dancers have to exert more effort in order to do a lot of things... I mean even in a lot of other dances and sports it really helps to be short. But there are advantages to being tall as well. I'm not going to go into detail here because when you say "extra large," I get the impression you are referring more to weight than height.

Regarding weight, I disagree entirely that there is more effort to be exerted and that you have to somehow cover more ground than a thinner dancer. I'm very far on the thin side, and it's much harder as a thin person to make movements that are visible enough, without the extra inches and wobble. Especially when you're venturing into modern Egyptian, beledi, and shaabi territory where the movements are more internal so you can't just throw around your hips and legs all over the place for the sake of making the movement big because it needs to look tight and precise yet still visible.

My advice: practice your full range of motion for the sake of maintaining and gaining range of motion. It never hurts. But when it comes to actual dancing and practicing for dance, keep the movements tight and precise (unless you are into some other style which requires bigger, exaggerated, more external movements instead). Take advantage of your reverb.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

I know that it sounds as too much work, but you need to be able to do both, i.e. reduce the size of the movement while keeping it clear and precise, or keep the size of the movement, while keeping up with the rythm and gracefulness so that it does not become vulgar or aggressive.

If this seems unfair for big girls, i can share with you what little girls face:

a) first they need to understand that if they are the littlest in a group or course, they need to slow down their rythm so that they do not miss the general pace

b) they need to work hard very hard to make their movements bigger, while keeping them graceful and precise

c) they also need to work in a way that when dancing with other girls of various shapes, so that they do not like "clumsy adolescents interfering with women's dancing".

If you share your questions with the other dancers in your group, they will become aware no matter what size they are, that you all together need to coordinate yourselves, in terms of movement size and in terms of movement pace.

And, there is always a good argument for the little girls not to go too fast: their movement becomes much more feminine and relaxed when they follow the general pattern. Oh, by the way, the general pattern of oriental dance is for full figured women... [i am writing all this as a little girl]

But when I move bigger (especially when traveling), I lose my balance on my stupid dinky feet, but if I DON'T try to travel big, my class sisters nearly run over me!

 

[Darshiva]

You get trampled in class too? I always hated the class stampede when I was regularly studenting.


I try to encourage similarly leg-sized peoples to travel together to avoid the issue.



Oh, that reminds me of another issue when I was a nooby teacher. One of my students was tiny & her posture was always odd until I pointed out to her that it was the angle from the body that mattered more than the distance from the body. Once we got that sorted it really helped with the body shape/size differences in class, so I've used that analogy since.

 

[BigJim]

Yame.... Although I'd probably qualify on being large on both height and weight (6'3"... 275lbs) I was refering more to the height aspect.I think it's your height and frame that give you the distance.

Someone who is very tall and thin would be able to cover the maximum distance on say a chest circle...

Your weight is what comes along for the ride....

 

[Aniseteph]

It's very multifactorial IMO. Tall and thin will have some similarities with small and thin, depending on the movement and which part of the body you are talking about. Heavy is hugely variable too - pear shape or apple shape, on a large or small frame? Does a smaller waist emphasise hip moves more?

How it looks on your body vs. mine is not something that's been mentioned in our class often but it's really interesting. :think:

 

[Yame]

Yame.... Although I'd probably qualify on being large on both height and weight (6'3"... 275lbs) I was refering more to the height aspect.I think it's your height and frame that give you the distance.

Someone who is very tall and thin would be able to cover the maximum distance on say a chest circle...

Your weight is what comes along for the ride....

That makes a lot more sense now. Yes, height does give you more distance to cover on isolations (and less distance to cover on traveling). As others have said though, you don't have to use your entire range of motion all the time.

I always recommend practicing your full range of motion so you can maintain it and possibly develop more... but for actual dancing, small and precise is where it's at, in my opinion

 

[Zumarrad]

I think it's also worth taking into account differences within the actual torso, too, which might have nothing to do with height, and the range of motion in the limbs. The things that make me tall are my legs, and my arms are matchingly long. My measurements are large. But I have a short waist, and calves that will only let me plie with a flat foot so far. I know dancers who are much shorter and littler than I am, whose torsos are porportionately much longer. Some have much greater range of movement in the hip area than I do. Conversely I've met many people who can't tilt their pelvis forward and back with straight legs, which I find bizarre, but - that's their bodies and mine obviously works a little differently.

I can keep my legs close together quite easily because I don't have chunky thighs. I've met women who absolutely cannot because their big muscled thighs get in the way.

A one-time student of mine has very limited range down, ie can't bend her knees very far. But she's never developed a squatty shimmy and so the straight-leg Egyptian shimmy is much easier for her, where many other dancers struggle.

My teacher was muscular and broad-shouldered, with hyperextensible limbs. She liked to choreograph and present face-on, liked forward figure 8s because they created a more luscious hip movement on her slimmer-hipped frame, worked better with her chest wide open and her arms right out sideways (because she had that range of movement) and could do superawesome snake arms because of her uberbendy elbows. She happens to be shorter. Her height had very little to do with her movement choices. Even her preference for a high demipointe was driven by a desire to create a more aesthetically pleasing line on muscled, shorter legs, not to be taller.