A question on the base origin of belly dancing

DancingArabian

New member
An ignorant question, but I'm asking anyway, since Google has been useless on the issue.

What is Turkish belly dance based on? It is also the raqs sharqi/raqs shaabi/beledi/etc? Or is it something else? (I ask about Turkish only because that's the style I seem to be drawn to the most right now and I'm trying to learn more about it.)

Do ALL forms of belly dancing originate from raqs sharqi/raqs shaabi/beledi/etc?
 

Kashmir

New member
Turkish belly dance is based on their own version of the social improvised style. However, it has a number of differences such as the music which uses a different set of maqamat and different rhythms. It also has more Asian than African influences (more arms and upper body rather than hips) and also influences from the Rom who make up a significant portion of public/professional dancers.

In addition there are social differences which impact of the dance.
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
An ignorant question, What is Turkish belly dance based on?

This is a matter of HUGE debate for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that "Turkey" or the Ottoman Empire is and was a HUGE geographical area, which had influence over other huge geographical areas -- like North Africa.

But you're probably talking about modern Turkish bellydance, yes?


It is also the raqs sharqi/raqs shaabi/beledi/etc?

Let's break this down to some common definitions, as we use them on this forum.

Raqs is the Arabic word for dance. There is no style delimiter put on it -- it's just dance. Like the dance you would do at your cousin's wedding.

Raqs Sharqi is the Egyptian oriental style that grew out of the dance styles of the Awalim. (citing Sahra Kent and Aisha Ali here.) We credit Badia Masabni with creating or encouraging this style, which incorporates more theatrical elements and western stylings. Bellydance music that was composed for the style of dance is what we consider "classical" dance music.

Morocco has said it was dubbed "Sharqi" (meaning Eastern) to separate it from that which was "Afrangi" (Frankish or Western dance) but Aisha Ali believes that they called it "Eastern" dance because they recognize it came from the East -- ie Turkey. And therein lies the rub :) (Also, my understanding of "Afrangi" is that it's sort of the opposite of Baladi -- which refers more to home style. Afrangi is more Western style. Baladi bread would be pita bread. Afrangi bread would be a French baguette. )

Raqs Shaabi is kind of a modern term for the kind of dance that people on the street do. Untrained dance. BUT, it's also a performance style of dance that seeks to capture the ESSENCE of the style of those people on the street, while still acknowledging it's a theatrical representation. Shaabi in its natural environment isn't "performed." But in America, we're crazy over theatrical representations of Shaabi.

Raqs Baladi is two things: one, it's what a lot of Arab dancers call plain old Raqs (and I think this is how MizzNaa uses the term) and it's also a specific performance style done to a kind of music we often call Ashra Balady or Balady progression.

All of these 3 are very definitively Egyptian iterations of what Andrea Deagon calls "Solo Improvisational Torso Articulation," which is pretty much the only definition of "belly dance" we can all agree on. ;)

Keep in mind that at various times in history, it has been very political unsound to recognize Egypt as the originating culture of bellydance. In the 70s, the Egyptian minister of culture publicly recognized belly dancing to be a dirty little import from Turkey. And Reda's whole inspiration behind Reda troupe was to get people interested in and proud of the indigenous dances of Egypt. They love it and hate it, sometimes at the same time.


With some notable exceptions, TURKISH belly dance TODAY (2013) is HIGHLY influenced -- like to the point of complete copying in some cases -- Egyptian Raqs Sharqi. They're dancing to Um Kalsoum and trying to imitate (it seems) the great Egyptians. But Turkey is in the process of trying to figure out its own national identity, so it makes sense that its artists are still trying to figure out who they are. And from what I understand it's still very uncool to be Romani in Turkey, so it's actually pretty impressive that some of the more successful dancers are acknowledging their Rom heritage.

Forty years ago Turkish dance was much different, and I think you could see the ties to the Silk Road music and dance (that Kashmir mentioned) a lot better.

There are a lot of unanswered questions regarding origins in Turkish dance -- and how much influence Ottoman occupation had on native Egyptian dance. Two independent sources have said that the music the Egyptian Ghawazee were dancing to in the 70s was Turkish military band music. Other sources say the words used to refer to the typical Ghawazee band instruments are all Turkish words. The very least you can say is that the two cultures -- Turkish and Egyptian -- have been very much aware of and paying close attention to each other, so influence and copying is to be expected.


Do ALL forms of belly dancing originate from raqs sharqi/raqs shaabi/beledi/etc?

Depends on what you mean by belly dance, but think instead of a continuum of dance, from south-central Africa, up north to Egypt, over to the Arabian peninsula, up to Central Asia and over again to Turkey -- that's the region represented by hip and torso dances. It's immensely hard to point to ONE area and say "it started HERE!" especially when even in the ancient world, there was so much exploration and trade.

If you want to talk MODERN dance -- which is pretty much all we can really talk about, then there are 4 major styles of Oriental:

1. Egyptian -- which encompasses a lot, but had a tremendous influence on other styles, because of movies and the popularity of Egyptian media.

2. Turkish -- which has changed, as I mentioned. The music for the older styles is wildly different from Egyptian, it often incorporates a lot more footwork than Egyptian (probably borrowed from folk dances) and is often fused with or incorporated into Rom dancing and music.

3. American -- aka American Cabaret -- which is really Turkish with a twist. American Arab music was a mesh of several different styles (debke, Turkish folk, some pan-Arabic music and Egyptian folk, some jazz, some Persian influence, etc.) Check out the podcast Radio Bastet for the kind of music that best represented American bellydance in its heyday. Anyway, "Vintage" American bellydance is our interpretation of Turkish, with a lot of leeway. Modern American is Egyptian influenced, but also references hiphop and western stage theatrics. (think Bellydance Superstars)

4. Lebanese -- which nods to debke, but I don't really see all that much of the Lebanese folk dances in it (but that's just me.) Lebanese style -- from what I've gathered on this forum, is a style that is really similar to the Golden Age Egyptian style. It's not as heavy as what we think of as Egyptian Baladi, and sometimes there is more focus on arms and upper body than there is in Egyptian. When you see it in the United States, it's really more a product of the Lebanese nightclubs in America in the 70s, and less any actual indigenous Lebanese style. Lebanese dancers tended to be a little more "wild" with the arms and hair and had a more "energetic" approach to the dance. There aren't that many people here doing it much at all anymore, and the best known Lebanese dancer right now -- Amani -- is really taking a much more theatrical approach to it, so you can't REALLY look at her to define Lebanese.

CAVEAT -- the above is all just my understanding, based on interviews and workshops with teachers and musicians who represent these styles. If it fascinates you, seek out the people who've done primary research in those areas and read read read, then do your own research and see what overlaps :) There are LOTS of times when our resident "experts" disagree on an issue. As Sahra would say, "It's complicated." :)
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
I tried to rep you Aziyade but it won't let me yet. :( That was very clear and well put. Thank you.
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
Raqs Sharqi is the Egyptian oriental style that grew out of the dance styles of the Awalim. (citing Sahra Kent and Aisha Ali here.) We credit Badia Masabni with creating or encouraging this style, which incorporates more theatrical elements and western stylings. Bellydance music that was composed for the style of dance is what we consider "classical" dance music.

In this 1966 interview, Badia Masabni says that she created raqs sharqi by combining the dance of the Awalim with Turkish, Persian, and Latin dance: Badia Masabni Interviewed in 1966

Raqs Baladi is two things: one, it's what a lot of Arab dancers call plain old Raqs...

Mahmoud Reda is one of the people who uses the term raqs baladi in this way.
 

Kashmir

New member
Raqs Sharqi is the Egyptian oriental style that grew out of the dance styles of the Awalim. (citing Sahra Kent and Aisha Ali here.) We credit Badia Masabni with creating or encouraging this style, which incorporates more theatrical elements and western stylings. Bellydance music that was composed for the style of dance is what we consider "classical" dance music.

Morocco has said it was dubbed "Sharqi" (meaning Eastern) to separate it from that which was "Afrangi" (Frankish or Western dance) but Aisha Ali believes that they called it "Eastern" dance because they recognize it came from the East -- ie Turkey. And therein lies the rub :) (Also, my understanding of "Afrangi" is that it's sort of the opposite of Baladi -- which refers more to home style. Afrangi is more Western style. Baladi bread would be pita bread. Afrangi bread would be a French baguette.)
And Dr Mo Geddawi believes it was coined to separate it from "low class" ie Mohamed Ali Street style - dance for the rich elite. (There is also a suggestion in "A Trade Like Any Other" it was a way of getting around bans on belly dance)
 
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