Is Belly-Dancing for Me? Am I in the Right Place?

[Kartane]

merge

One question though... I couldn't help but notice that at the intermediate level it shows hip technique only being listed as 20-49... so about only 30 hip "moves". I would have thought it would have been almost like 300 different hip moves when looking at videos of advanced performers from Sadie or Tahia. I guess is it just them doing that "layering" thing where they put certain things over each other and make the movement look different than what they would look if performing the basics separately??

Am I off-track here? Someone please correct me.

Hi! Great questions! :clap: There are lots and lots and lots of ways to do even one move and it takes YEARS to learn them all. For example, a hip circle. It can be flat, tilted at the edges, one hipped, vertical on one hip or two, connected into 8s: up/down, vertical or horizontal, shifted though multiple planes, done different sizes, speeds, internally or externally, inverted, cut-off, turkish style, egyptian style, tribal style... you get the picture. So a 'hip circle" may be listed as 1 move, but it can be done 30 different ways... But in order to get to any of that you have to start with the basics and build looseness and strength and range and control in the muscles.

Also... where would things like the belly flutter be at in this syllabus? Advanced level or something? I didn't see it in the beginner or intermediate so I was wondering why they left it out.

Mahsati specializes in Egyptian and ME folkloric styles, so you may not see things like the 'flutter' on her list because it's not used much in those styles. (Though seriously -- you will be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable teacher than her.) Parts of other skills are combined to make that move so every foundation moves leads to doing other things.

Hope that helps!

I'll third the live instructor recommendation, for the reasons stated. "Beginner" DVDs are so very rarely for beginners. What you CAN do, though, is learn the names of individual movements and look up tutorials on youtube. The feedback from a live instructor is invaluable, but those tutorials can give you a heads up on what to expect.

I know this DVD well and it's pretty beginner friendly, but even knowing that, I would use it as a supplement to live classes. Live teachers are the best way to learn! They can correct mistakes on the fly and you will learn faster and more correctly. Plus you will learn so much more than just 'the moves' because 'the moves' are NOT in and of themselves 'the dance'.

Have fun!

 

[Kashmir]

One question though... I couldn't help but notice that at the intermediate level it shows hip technique only being listed as 20-49... so about only 30 hip "moves". I would have thought it would have been almost like 300 different hip moves when looking at videos of advanced performers from Sadie or Tahia. I guess is it just them doing that "layering" thing where they put certain things over each other and make the movement look different than what they would look if performing the basics separately??

Let's see - the hips can rock up and down (powered by a range of different muscles), they can tilt forward & back (not really "belly dance" according to some), they can slide sideways and they can twist forward & back. They can do circles - horizontal, vertical to side plane and to the front plane, they can mix modes or do it straight. There are eights on the horizontal, vertical (two directions) and good old mixed mode again.

That's really it. A hip drop is really just playing with the timing and stance on a hip rock etc. Then you can start layering ab work or travelling or shimmies. You can mix, say, half an eight with 3/4 of a circle (the Banana) - or a half circle with twists (the Jewel). But those basic moves are the ones to master - and it'll take quite a while to get those just right.

Also... where would things like the belly flutter be at in this syllabus? Advanced level or something? I didn't see it in the beginner or intermediate so I was wondering why they left it out.

Depends on your style. The belly flutter is used in some American styles but not as a flutter in Egyptian. Personally I never teach it (or use it) unless it is one of those days you want to try something weird. (Few of my students like the look either - all those Egyptian videos must have had some effect).

That said, definitely not a beginner move.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

One question though... I couldn't help but notice that at the intermediate level it shows hip technique only being listed as 20-49... so about only 30 hip "moves". I would have thought it would have been almost like 300 different hip moves when looking at videos of advanced performers from Sadie or Tahia. I guess is it just them doing that "layering" thing where they put certain things over each other and make the movement look different than what they would look if performing the basics separately??

Am I off-track here?

The other posters have mentioned variety -- in belly dance, there really aren't any specific proscribed ways to accomplish movement. There are generalizations for styles, but we really like to promote individual variation.

That said, sometimes one movement can look completely different based on how it's done, or what's accented. Take a figure 8 shape. You can change the timing of it, so one side is done faster or slower than the other. You can raise the ball of one foot, so that side is more "wobbly" than the flat-footed side. You can make one side bigger and the other side really small. You can turn at an angle for one side. Or layer other movements (like a shimmy) on top of it.

If you want to catalog movements, there are lots of different ways to do that, but one of the easiest ways is to ask "what shape is this movement?" Then you can ask yourself, "what variations are there for this shape?" (like an oval instead of a circle, or a circle that takes longer to go from side to side than front to back, or whatever.)

For beginners, I personally think it's easier to think of shapes the body can make. There are a number of different ways to make a hip circle, but the overall concept -- that of the circle -- is the starting point, and what all the variations have in common. A small hip circle, a medium sized hip circle and a large hip circle are all still just circles.

So a lot of people will say, there are only 10 (or 15 or 20 or whatever) movements in bellydance -- but those are really USUALLY just the shapes -- or sometimes the shapes plus common footwork traveling patterns. I mean, how many basic shapes can you draw? Not many. But there are so many variations on those basic shapes, and that's how we use those shapes creatively.

 

[achilles007]

Wow... So many great responses. I'll have to read more and respond when I come back in from school...

Can't wait!

 

[Greek Bonfire]

If you are interested in African dancing, a lot of the styles are different from bellydancing as we know it. You may want to stress North African style more although even the Algerian and Tunisian dances have a "mix" of "bellydance" meaning African and bellydance as we know it.

 

[achilles007]

Belly flutter is more of an American and/or Turkish Oriental movement, not Raqs Sharqi, which is Egyptian style and the focus of the DVD you are referencing, so probably is not on that DVD.

Hip movements in belly dance are based on circles, half-circles, figure eights, drops, lifts, twists and shimmies. Once you master all of those you use them to respond to the music. It's not so much about having a huge catalogue of different movements, but having a body that is trained to respond to the music. It's not as much about having many different movements as it is about having an emotional experience and responding to the music, especially in Egyptian style.

Ah.. This makes so much sense. It's exactly what they tell me in Salsa also.

I'll third the live instructor recommendation, for the reasons stated. "Beginner" DVDs are so very rarely for beginners. What you CAN do, though, is learn the names of individual movements and look up tutorials on youtube. The feedback from a live instructor is invaluable, but those tutorials can give you a heads up on what to expect.

Also, yes, you're thinking of layering! Most hip movements come down to making figure 8s, circles, or releasing and contracting different muscles. And shimmies. Most of the other moves are variations and combinations of those things, sometimes with other things layered over them. (At least, the ones I'e learned.) When I want to work on my hips and increasing flexibility in my lower torso and abs, I usually focus on 8s. Horizontal and vertical, and then adding a twist. It's a great way to hit and increase your entire range of motion.

The first thing to focus on, though, and this becomes more apparent when you watch a new dancer who's only had DVDs vs. a new dancer who's had a live teacher: separating and isolating your upper body from your lower body. It all falls apart if you're moving your hips and you can't keep your upper body still. (You work on separate moves first, and then combine them, so it's crisp.) It looks like that translates into the African dance, as well.

This is a great post.

Thank you for the tip on learning the names of the individual movements to look up on youtube. This makes sense and definitely would give me a clear perspective on the vocabulary and sort of be able to keep up with the dialogue when I hear someone explaining or walking through a certain technique.

One question I do have in regards to "isolating". I have heard of the term in regards to shoulder rolling or chest and arm movement, but it's hard for me to imagine what exactly it is at your core.

It just seems that since your core is one big piece-- like the trunk of a tree-- that you move, how in the world can you isolate various parts of it? Seems impossible!

i guess I'll just hit youtube for it! Thanks

Hi! Great questions! :clap: There are lots and lots and lots of ways to do even one move and it takes YEARS to learn them all. For example, a hip circle. It can be flat, tilted at the edges, one hipped, vertical on one hip or two, connected into 8s: up/down, vertical or horizontal, shifted though multiple planes, done different sizes, speeds, internally or externally, inverted, cut-off, turkish style, egyptian style, tribal style... you get the picture. So a 'hip circle" may be listed as 1 move, but it can be done 30 different ways... But in order to get to any of that you have to start with the basics and build looseness and strength and range and control in the muscles.



Mahsati specializes in Egyptian and ME folkloric styles, so you may not see things like the 'flutter' on her list because it's not used much in those styles. (Though seriously -- you will be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable teacher than her.) Parts of other skills are combined to make that move so every foundation moves leads to doing other things.

Hope that helps!



I know this DVD well and it's pretty beginner friendly, but even knowing that, I would use it as a supplement to live classes. Live teachers are the best way to learn! They can correct mistakes on the fly and you will learn faster and more correctly. Plus you will learn so much more than just 'the moves' because 'the moves' are NOT in and of themselves 'the dance'.

Have fun!

Great post! Thank you for the post!

Wow... I never thought of it this way at all! Now that you mention it -- all the different things that can be done-- I can see how and where the variation and complexity of this dance comes from or can come from. I had no clue that there would be so many ways to do a move!

Just thinking about it certainly brings me greater appreciation for performers at the advanced level. I had just been to a page of a user here by poster shiradotnet, on her 3-piece article reading upon the different styles, and the one by Tahia Carioca was so rich in her hip movement-- I honestly couldn't believe I never heard of her until now!

This is motivation to --whenever I start-- to keep practicing those basics! And then a whole other world of dance opens up!

Very inspiring and enlightening! Thank you!

 

[achilles007]

Let's see - the hips can rock up and down (powered by a range of different muscles), they can tilt forward & back (not really "belly dance" according to some), they can slide sideways and they can twist forward & back. They can do circles - horizontal, vertical to side plane and to the front plane, they can mix modes or do it straight. There are eights on the horizontal, vertical (two directions) and good old mixed mode again.

That's really it. A hip drop is really just playing with the timing and stance on a hip rock etc. Then you can start layering ab work or travelling or shimmies. You can mix, say, half an eight with 3/4 of a circle (the Banana) - or a half circle with twists (the Jewel). But those basic moves are the ones to master - and it'll take quite a while to get those just right.

Depends on your style. The belly flutter is used in some American styles but not as a flutter in Egyptian. Personally I never teach it (or use it) unless it is one of those days you want to try something weird. (Few of my students like the look either - all those Egyptian videos must have had some effect).

That said, definitely not a beginner move.

Thank you for the post!

Posts like this really help me out because as a complete beginner-- it can be kind of daunting taking on something that you would think has so many moves that in haste it makes me skip over really learning to "walk" before I want to immediately jump into "running". Only to fail miserably and then quit.

But being continually reminded that it's nothing but the same several basics done in different ways, or layered, and stylized reminds me as a beginner that it's-- as another poster said earlier-- more about time, experience, and practice rather than just moves, moves, moves, memorizing and regurgitating.

I think as a newcomer I have a tendency-- which I'm trying to break-- to see the number of things done as a measure of advancement, rather than knowing how to do just a few things well as a more appropriate measure-stick.
I know when I first started salsa-- after I had seen some guys mop the floor with all these crazy moves that all looked different, one done one second after the other second within a 5-6 minute song... and here I am with my coach having me do basics week after week looking like a simpleton. I just wanted to go home and re-think my life afterwards.

Posts like this are motivating because they remind me of just how powerful the basics really are and that they can't be mulled over.
Thank you.

BTW-- would is the belly roll also like a flutter variation that would mainly be found in American/Turkish styles?

The other posters have mentioned variety -- in belly dance, there really aren't any specific proscribed ways to accomplish movement. There are generalizations for styles, but we really like to promote individual variation.

That said, sometimes one movement can look completely different based on how it's done, or what's accented. Take a figure 8 shape. You can change the timing of it, so one side is done faster or slower than the other. You can raise the ball of one foot, so that side is more "wobbly" than the flat-footed side. You can make one side bigger and the other side really small. You can turn at an angle for one side. Or layer other movements (like a shimmy) on top of it.

If you want to catalog movements, there are lots of different ways to do that, but one of the easiest ways is to ask "what shape is this movement?" Then you can ask yourself, "what variations are there for this shape?" (like an oval instead of a circle, or a circle that takes longer to go from side to side than front to back, or whatever.)

For beginners, I personally think it's easier to think of shapes the body can make. There are a number of different ways to make a hip circle, but the overall concept -- that of the circle -- is the starting point, and what all the variations have in common. A small hip circle, a medium sized hip circle and a large hip circle are all still just circles.

So a lot of people will say, there are only 10 (or 15 or 20 or whatever) movements in bellydance -- but those are really USUALLY just the shapes -- or sometimes the shapes plus common footwork traveling patterns. I mean, how many basic shapes can you draw? Not many. But there are so many variations on those basic shapes, and that's how we use those shapes creatively.

Okay, and this is where the terminology such as hip circle or infinity loops come from?

Ahhhhh... Makes so much sense to think in terms of shapes.

Wonderful post.

(Excuse my redundancy here of saying this, but it's alot of concepts I'm mentally unveiling that I've never really come across or thought about before.)

I'm glad I visited this forum! I wasn't sure what the reception would be like.
One question though... I know you said that even though there are generalizations for certains styles but that individual variation is the desired goal.. are there definitely any big no-no's that shouldn't be done regarding their personal style.

I know someone mentioned earlier that the back-forward pelvic-thrusting like in the clip I posted was definitely looked down upon. Is there anything else? I'm guessing anything "big" and "aggressive"?

 

[Zorba]

I'm guessing anything "big" and "aggressive"?

Others can answer this far better than I can - but I'll chime in and say "its all in the intent". There are, for instance, BIG hip circles. And even a subtle shoulder lock can carry a lot of power.

 

[Kashmir]

Thank you for the tip on learning the names of the individual movements to look up on youtube. This makes sense and definitely would give me a clear perspective on the vocabulary and sort of be able to keep up with the dialogue when I hear someone explaining or walking through a certain technique.

Actually there is no standardization in naming. The same name can refer to different moves - and different moves can refer to the same move. This never struck me until recently as much of my study was with Egyptians who don't "name" anything. They just do it and you follow.

One question I do have in regards to "isolating". I have heard of the term in regards to shoulder rolling or chest and arm movement, but it's hard for me to imagine what exactly it is at your core.

It just seems that since your core is one big piece-- like the trunk of a tree-- that you move, how in the world can you isolate various parts of it? Seems impossible!

No your core is not one big piece at all. Even the Rectus abdominis can be controlled in pieces. Then there are four lots of obliques, there's your Transversalis abdominis which is really "core" (RA isn't) then there's all the posture muscles in your back. When I was in recovery they trained me to fire individual sections of the Multifidus spinae.

What actually happens in "isolation" is you train yourself to fire muscles to resist the movement in the part of the body you do not want to move and also suppress reflexes such as firing all you flexors at once.

BTW-- would is the belly roll also like a flutter variation that would mainly be found in American/Turkish styles?

Yes.

 

[AndreaSTL]

Hello! You've received some wonderful advice so far, so I just wanted to touch on the live teacher thing. You mentioned that you live in Miami, and you just happen to have a good (IMO) teacher there named Virginia. She is a protege of Yousry Sharif, an Egyptian who currently is based in New York. One thing you'll find as you look through clips is that dancers under the same umbrella of Egyptian Oriental don't all look the same. Some feel that she incorporates a lot of jazz moves, but I enjoy the energy she brings.
Here's her web page Belly Dance by Virginia

 

[gisela]

BTW-- would is the belly roll also like a flutter variation that would mainly be found in American/Turkish styles?

I know Kashmir said yes and she is a much more experienced dancer and teacher than me but I would still like to add something. For me(who loves the egyptian style) bellyroll is a very important move to learn. Not because I am going to stand front and center stage rolling my belly for five minutes, but because layered over other moves like camels and travelling steps, it can add a very juicy feeling to the move.

 

[Dunyah]

I know Kashmir said yes and she is a much more experienced dancer and teacher than me but I would still like to add something. For me(who loves the egyptian style) bellyroll is a very important move to learn. Not because I am going to stand front and center stage rolling my belly for five minutes, but because layered over other moves like camels and travelling steps, it can add a very juicy feeling to the move.

Some people speculate that the belly roll was invented by non-Egyptian dancers who saw the undulations and tried to copy them by moving just the abdominal muscles, without using the spine/pelvis. I don't know if that's true but it's an interesting concept.

Nowadays Egyptians may not do belly rolls alone, as an isolation, but the belly pop, or "out", and the "in", or abdominal contraction, are certainly used frequently as accents.

I teach my students belly roll, which they find difficult, by having them place one hand on the upper abdomen and one hand on the lower abdomen. Then push out with the upper and simultaneously pull in with the lower, then reverse, pulling in with the top and pushing out with the bottom. Having the hands on the muscles helps you to feel the movement even if it is so small that it's hard to see. Keep practicing isolating the top and bottom muscles like that until you can smooth it out into a roll that goes either from top to bottom or bottom to top. Most people find one or the other direction easiest. Men are often good at belly rolls because of the strong abdominal muscles they have.

Flutters I teach by having the students place their fingertips on the diaphragm, right between and slightly below the breasts. Pant like a dog so you can feel that muscle working. Then work on doing that diaphragm movement without using the breath - you have to close off your throat so you aren't inhaling - while maintaining a pleasant expression on the face, lol, increasing the speed of the movement until it becomes a flutter.

 

[Kashmir]

For me(who loves the egyptian style) bellyroll is a very important move to learn. Not because I am going to stand front and center stage rolling my belly for five minutes, but because layered over other moves like camels and travelling steps, it can add a very juicy feeling to the move.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply Egyptian styles uses no ab work - but the work is in addition. When I think "belly roll" I think a continous rolling movement which is the focus of attention. Much of the Egyptian abdominal layering uses similar movements but is rarely a straight belly roll.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Some people speculate that the belly roll was invented by non-Egyptian dancers who saw the undulations and tried to copy them by moving just the abdominal muscles, without using the spine/pelvis. I don't know if that's true but it's an interesting concept.

Bellydance is a natural evolution of the normal movement of people from a certain culture(s). I think we can agree on that?

Now, my 14 month old son can roll his belly like Delilah. I'm incredibly jealous. I have NO idea where he got the idea -- but he seems to think it's funny. (I suspect it was a response to us tickling him.)

Watching a child with virtually no language acquisition do so natural a movement like this makes me think -- well of course! Some person at some point did it while he/she was dancing, and then a friend did it, and somewhere in another village somebody else did it, and somewhere along the line somebody thought "hey this is cool -- I'm gonna do it in my show" and there you have it.

I don't think that movement gets "invented" in bellydance. (Western dance, yes. Ballet was invented.) I think movement just happens, and then somebody decides that this natural movement would look good HERE in the music, or it just kind of spontaneously happens and gets subdued or exaggerated by the person doing it.

Okay, and this is where the terminology such as hip circle or infinity loops come from?

Ahhhhh... Makes so much sense to think in terms of shapes.

Yes, I think so too. I mean you can "name" a step something (Dead Camel at the Pyramids) but that name really doesn't give you any clue as to the quality of the movement. But if I say hip circle or chest infinity loop, not only do you know the place the movement is happening, but also the shape. And you can take that one concept (hip circle) and create endless variation in texture and quality of the movement.

Wonderful post.

(Excuse my redundancy here of saying this, but it's alot of concepts I'm mentally unveiling that I've never really come across or thought about before.)

Thanks and -- Hey, I'm working with an instructor now who is a total geek about this stuff and each week he's throwing these concepts at me, and after an hour I'm usually like "Wait -- my brain is full!" I mean this conceptual stuff is DEEP stuff, and don't think you'll understand it right away. I think the conceptual stuff is one of those things you have to revisit frequently, as your understanding of movement and music grows.

One question though... I know you said that even though there are generalizations for certains styles but that individual variation is the desired goal.. are there definitely any big no-no's that shouldn't be done regarding their personal style.

Okay, since belly dance is a cultural expression, it can be a little tricky at first to figure out the cultural identity markers, learn what quality of movement goes with what music, know how Arabs or Turks use movement to express the music -- but a good teacher will help you with all of that, and really it doesn't apply too much unless you're performing. I mean I'm not saying revel in your lack of knowledge - lol - but at first your goal will to be to get to know the movements and the music, and the relationship between the two. "What not to do" in performance varies according to style and audience.

I know someone mentioned earlier that the back-forward pelvic-thrusting like in the clip I posted was definitely looked down upon. Is there anything else? I'm guessing anything "big" and "aggressive"?

Not exactly -- but African dance (in my very limited experience) is much more "aggressive" especially the mens' dances, than bellydance. If African dance is a person staring at you, eye to eye, nose to nose, well belly dance is more like someone looking at you out of the corner of their eye, making eye contact, but in a really subtle and coy way. Maybe they have hair hanging in their eyes? lol.

Big dramatic movements (like large hip circles with a drop down of the torso) certainly have their place in Egyptian dance. Strong doesn't have to track INYOURFACE!!!!! ya know? And basically while it's okay to wave your lady bits around during a shoulder shimmy, you certainly wouldn't rub them on a bald man's head. And while it's okay to move your masculine bits around, you don't really want to be thrusting them up in someone's face. It's something that the more you study the dance, the more you realize where the line is drawn between coy and overtly sexual.

And of course there are always famous dancers who got famous for being incredibly raunchy, or crossing sex-role boundaries. But unless you're an Egyptian superstar already, I don't recommend you follow THAT route

 

[achilles007]

Hello! You've received some wonderful advice so far, so I just wanted to touch on the live teacher thing. You mentioned that you live in Miami, and you just happen to have a good (IMO) teacher there named Virginia. She is a protege of Yousry Sharif, an Egyptian who currently is based in New York. One thing you'll find as you look through clips is that dancers under the same umbrella of Egyptian Oriental don't all look the same. Some feel that she incorporates a lot of jazz moves, but I enjoy the energy she brings.
Here's her web page Belly Dance by Virginia

Oh... wow.... This is gold! Exactly wht I have been looking for! I have been looking high and low for a Raqs Sharqi instructor in the Miami area that teaches privates.

Thank you so much!

I can't believe I missed this thread yesterday! I meant to come back and check again, but I had to move out of my dorm.

I don't think I can thank you enough for this! lol. Words just can't express enough!

 

[gisela]

If you are in Miami you should go and see the show by the amazing Beata and Horacio from Germany and their bellydance company. They are doing a big show tomorrow night at

8pm
Hollywood Central Performing Arts Center
1770 Monroe St.,
Hollywood, FL 33020
Office:954.921.3439

more info here: HOME

 

[Yame]

Hello! You've received some wonderful advice so far, so I just wanted to touch on the live teacher thing. You mentioned that you live in Miami, and you just happen to have a good (IMO) teacher there named Virginia. She is a protege of Yousry Sharif, an Egyptian who currently is based in New York. One thing you'll find as you look through clips is that dancers under the same umbrella of Egyptian Oriental don't all look the same. Some feel that she incorporates a lot of jazz moves, but I enjoy the energy she brings.
Here's her web page Belly Dance by Virginia

Virginia is absolutely amazing. Her videos on youtube don't do her justice... you have to see her in person. She is one of the best American belly dancers out there. Her style is like a cross between Yousry Sharif and Amir Thaleb/Saida. Very technical, stylistically rich and with some of the most unique/interesting/complex traveling patterns I've seen. Her workshops were very challenging for me... if I lived in Miami I'd definitely study with her.

 

[khanjar]

Regards males and hips, personally I didn't have a problem breaking out the hips and I understand why that is now, as well, I dance feminine, but practice for the hips I do alphabets, that is scribing out the letters of the alphabet with hip movement in the horizontal and vertical plane, it certainly improves the range of movement. And the good thing about alphabets, one can do the horizontal plane discretely when one is bored waiting for the bus in the rain.

 

[Shanazel]

My favorite part of hip alphabets is dotting i's and crossing t's.