How is this possible?

[Sophia Maria]

I find it very plausible that the musicians could play without scores.

I play piano - Western classical music such as Bach, Beethoven, etc. I discovered that I couldn't really PLAY a song (ie, imbue it with artistry) until after I had memorized it.

Same here. I only took piano for about two years when I was about middle school age. My piano teacher used to get frustrated because I was always looking at my hands and never turning the pages. She was a lovely teacher but eventually I just quit and now just play on my own. I just can't stand to read music--I either learn it by ear, or sometimes watch youtube videos of people playing and pause it to see difficult chords I need. I could completely see an orchestra learning something by ear.

Question from someone who knows almost nothing about music theory: What does it really mean to be tone deaf? I thought the "deaf" part was just an expression...and that some people just can't replicate it?

 

[shiradotnet]

In much the same way, you're not going to be able to find tarab in your dancing if you are still in the Learning stage of a choreography. Your mind is intent on remembering what comes next. Once your body knows what comes next without having to rely on your active brain, that's when you can relax into the mood and feel of the piece.

I see what you're saying and your logic is valid.

However, in my experience, I don't think I've ever achieved tarab while performing a choreography, even if it was one that I had deeply embedded in my muscle memory. The only times I've ever experienced tarab while performing were when I was improvising.

Maybe it's different for other people. That's just my personal experience.

 

[MizzNaaa]

This is a slightly unrelated note, but I have a thing against the whole 'talented' business.

I grew up in a world where talent was thought to be natural, a god given gift...yada yada, but honestly I don't think such a thing exists. I'm an artist, or hope to become one, and I like to draw and paint. Without the technical knowledge I have to hammer in my brain and the endless practice till my hands cramp and I can no longer stand the sight of charcoal, pencils, pastels and paper, I would never, not in a million years be able to make a good picture that is pleasing to look at.

Same thing with music, same thing with dancing. I feel the whole 'oh she's talented' description undermines the amount of work 'talented people' put in their craft and discourages a lot of people from doing the things they love, because some how they believe that there is a divine power up there somewhere that is responsible for making you good at something. Or because, somehow, admitting that ANYBODY can do what they love if they put enough effort in it makes 'talented people' less special.

Honestly, most 'talented' people I know where told at one point that they weren't good enough. Andrew Loomis, a contemporary American artist was told to go home a week after he was admitted to art school because he simply wasn't talented enough. Google Andrew Loomis's books and works of art and your jaw will drop from the beauty he creates with his pictures.

The point I'm trying to make is, I don't think there is such a thing as talent..at least not in the way the world wants us to think; for me, talent is waking up every day and going back to study and learn what you love so much despite how frustrating and difficult it is because you love it, not because you were given a gift from a mysterious power up there that makes you better than other people at a certain thing.

Sorry for the weird tangent, but that was something that's been bothering me for a long time...especially in the arts community, people tend to fling that word around thinking it's a compliment, when if you think about it; it really isn't. You're basically telling me that I'm as good as I am because I was lucky, not because I've had to put hundreds of hours of work and dedication and blood and tears into what I love so much.

 

[Zumarrad]

The point I'm trying to make is, I don't think there is such a thing as talent..at least not in the way the world wants us to think; for me, talent is waking up every day and going back to study and learn what you love so much despite how frustrating and difficult it is because you love it, not because you were given a gift from a mysterious power up there that makes you better than other people at a certain thing.

There is a fantastic quote, I think from George Sawa, in AJ Racy's book about tarab where, supposedly, at one of the Egyptian conservatories a student had a singing test. He said he couldn't do it that day. The examiner asked why not.
"Because I have no saltana today." The examiner, unsurprisingly, told him he would just have to sing without saltana.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I feel the whole 'oh she's talented' description undermines the amount of work 'talented people' put in their craft and discourages a lot of people from doing the things they love, because some how they believe that there is a divine power up there somewhere that is responsible for making you good at something. Or because, somehow, admitting that ANYBODY can do what they love if they put enough effort in it makes 'talented people' less special.

OMG -- I totally agree and have been saying the same thing for years!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is, I don't think there is such a thing as talent..

Dancer and choreographer Twyla Tharp, referencing Leopold Mozart (little Wolfgang Amadeus's father) said "talent often means a very determined parent."

She agrees with you, on the "talent" thing -- talent as meaning some kind of natural ability.

My 15-month old son has been involved in a children's music program called Kindermusik since he was 4 months old. Guess what? He's showing musical "talent" -- he hits a drum and shakes an egg shaker to music, claps with it, even DANCES (bless his little heart, he looks a cross between a twirling baby ballerina and a Saidi man with a yardstick, doing the nazi goosestep march) -- and since Mommy and Daddy were both involved in music and dance everyone tells us, "Oh he inherited his musical talent from you guys!"

No he didn't.

He's simply been EXPOSED to music since he was a fetus. He's been heavily encouraged when he responds in any way to music (we clap and cheer when he dances, clap and cheer when he bangs on the drum or the piano, clap and cheer when he "Sings.") His other-baby socialization revolves around music class. He sees mom and dad playing music and dancing. We have music playing in the car; he sees us watching concerts and dance shows on tv -- etc.

He gets such tremendous positive reinforcement whenever he does anything remotely musical, that of course he's going to do it, and keep doing it, and as he keeps doing it, he gets better at it, so by the time he's 3 or whatever, he's had a lot more "practice" time than another baby who was maybe encouraged in sports or fingerpainting etc. So we look at his skills and say "oh he's talented." And mom and dad only get credit for our genes, and not our hard work in fostering those "talents." lol.

at least not in the way the world wants us to think; for me, talent is waking up every day and going back to study and learn what you love so much despite how frustrating and difficult it is because you love it, not because you were given a gift from a mysterious power up there that makes you better than other people at a certain thing.

WORD!!!!!!! In total agreement.

people tend to fling that word around thinking it's a compliment, when if you think about it; it really isn't. You're basically telling me that I'm as good as I am because I was lucky, not because I've had to put hundreds of hours of work and dedication and blood and tears into what I love so much.

EXACTLY!!!

 

[Ariadne]

I'm going to both agree and disagree. I know talent exists because I have seen it. I know people who are talented at math, art, running, etc.; ie. it comes easy for them.

For example my sister is talented at math. It would drive her roommates nuts because they would have the same classes and have to study intensely to get the same grade she could get from only a few hours of study a week. HOWEVER! She still had to study.

I think the illusion is that somehow people who are talented don't have to work, that it's just instantaneous. HA! Any skill requires practice and hard work to master no matter what your talents may be. A person without the "talent" for a skill can absolutely surpass someone who has a natural talent through sheer hard work. And yes, all to often when someone has put in the hard work people say they are very "talented". Yes they are using the word incorrectly, they should say instead that they are very skilled, but it is meant as a compliment. In the case of the arts perhaps they are using the word talent to reflect a recognition that the arts require more then just technical brilliance but creativity as well?

On the other side of things there are people have the opposite of talent, who are essentially incompetent at some specific thing. No matter how much they study at best they can only be passable. I've seen that as well and sometimes at some of the silliest most inconsequential things. BUT, and this is a big one, that is the exception and rare. MOST people can learn any skill if they are just willing to put in the time and hard work. So I don't want to hear "well I can't do that I don't have the talent" unless you have actually tried already and are one of those exceptions. Are your hands broken? No, well then try and paint anyway. Do you have a voice? Sing. Do your feet work? Dance. No excuses. Either you are willing to take the time and learn or you aren't.

There are a lot of things I have a talent for that I cannot do as well as I would like but I haven't practiced and that is completely my fault.

 

[Zumarrad]

I'm going to both agree and disagree. I know talent exists because I have seen it. I know people who are talented at math, art, running, etc.; ie. it comes easy for them.

For example my sister is talented at math. It would drive her roommates nuts because they would have the same classes and have to study intensely to get the same grade she could get from only a few hours of study a week. HOWEVER! She still had to study.

I think the illusion is that somehow people who are talented don't have to work, that it's just instantaneous. HA! Any skill requires practice and hard work to master no matter what your talents may be. A person without the "talent" for a skill can absolutely surpass someone who has a natural talent through sheer hard work. And yes, all to often when someone has put in the hard work people say they are very "talented". Yes they are using the word incorrectly, they should say instead that they are very skilled, but it is meant as a compliment. In the case of the arts perhaps they are using the word talent to reflect a recognition that the arts require more then just technical brilliance but creativity as well?

On the other side of things there are people have the opposite of talent, who are essentially incompetent at some specific thing. No matter how much they study at best they can only be passable. I've seen that as well and sometimes at some of the silliest most inconsequential things. BUT, and this is a big one, that is the exception and rare. MOST people can learn any skill if they are just willing to put in the time and hard work. So I don't want to hear "well I can't do that I don't have the talent" unless you have actually tried already and are one of those exceptions. Are your hands broken? No, well then try and paint anyway. Do you have a voice? Sing. Do your feet work? Dance. No excuses. Either you are willing to take the time and learn or you aren't.

There are a lot of things I have a talent for that I cannot do as well as I would like but I haven't practiced and that is completely my fault.

I agree with this completely. For instance, I am not a naturally talented dancer. I have certain things going for me that might function as an aide - I have quite a good ear and good innate musicality (not that it always translates in my body!) and a sense of rhythm and timing. But for western dance especially there are many "talents" I do not have - learning to do certain things that certain more "talented" dancers don't have to think about it is all about technique. I am pretty uncoordinated and dancing with props is really difficult for me. But because I have some training and have repeated it at a basic level for a long time, I can handle a small range of veil movements with fairly decent competency.

It used to be that in the western world upper and upper middle class people were taught to play music and draw and paint, and so EVERYONE of that background could do those things to what we would consider a fairly high level. Some of course had a far greater knack than others.

But it's also true that there are some people in the world who can pick up pretty much any instrument and "play" it with minimal training. However, in order to play it well they are usually going to need lessons, and/or some kind of obsessive locked-in-the-bedroom practice period working it out on their own.

It's true that if you are exposed to music a lot, and encouraged to sing and dance and play, you will be more likely to be able to sing a bit or dance a bit or play a bit, or all three. There used to be a nice open mic evening in a bar near me that was largely run as an after-party by guys who worked in bars singing and playing around the town. They were all Maori and singing in Maori culture is just normal. They were always encouraging people to just join in and try, have a go at harmonies etc. It's accepted that some people are really good singers, and a rare few are really not good singers, but that most people can hold a tune and can sing along. I think that's still true of any cultural group that has regular scenarios in which singing occurs a lot (people who go to church being one).

 

[MizzNaaa]

Perhaps you guys are right, and yes, I guess some people are born with the ability to pick up certain things more than others. I drew since I was like 4 or 5 and drawing comes 'easier' to me. That doesn't mean however that another person who loves art and drawing can't be as good as me or even better if they put enough effort in it.

And it doesn't mean that I don't need to practice hard and dedicate my life to this form of art...that's my whole point.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Ariadne and I have discussed this before, so I won't go into it again, but I think it's possible that certain people are born with a mode of thinking that facilitates certain kinds of CONCEPTS -- like spatial reasoning or whatever it is that supposedly men are better at than women?

Mathematical ability might be connected to a certain mode of thinking. If it is, I can see how people born with that mode might struggle less with the CONCEPTS in math. I was reading once how researchers thought language acquisition was tied to similar mode of thinking, which would make sense to me.

I honestly don't think this applies beyond a conceptual level though. All the examples we list as far as activities -- again, kids (or adults) who are encouraged end up spending more time engaged in the activity, and more time translates to more comfort and a higher degree of perceived skill in that activity.

Another personal anecdote: my child is not encouraged to kick a ball or throw a ball in NEAR the way he's encouraged to "dance" or bop to music. It would not surprise me in the least if when he gets to school he shows "talent" for music but not soccer/football or baseball.



By the way -- in many cases a "tone deaf" can be trained to LEARN to hear the difference between what they're singing and what everyone else is singing. I've seen the process and it's kind of like biofeedback, or how pianos are tuned. The instructor has a little machine that shows the waveform of the sound he wants imitated, then samples the student's efforts. The two waveforms are shown superimposed on top of each other and the student is guided through the process of making the waveforms match. Then you move from the visual aid to actually learning to hear when the waves are out of synch. (Instead of one continues note, you hear a kind of wow-wow-wow-wow.) I don't know if it applies in ALL cases of "tone deafness" but I thought it was pretty fascinating.

 

[Ariadne]

I agree Aziyade. I would add that conceptual thinking isn't limited just to math and analytics, arts requires a different way of thinking as well.

That doesn't address the physical talents either. All of my sisters and I were exposed to dance and encouraged to dance by my mother. More then one of us took advantage of her lessons but only one of us showed a real gift for dance (not me :redface. She took that gift and applied it with study and became a really skilled dancer. She says I dance as well as she does but I have to work harder at it (and I suspect she's being nice). Whether that is a mental application to a physical skill, a physical gift, or some kind of combination of the two I don't know but initially our exposure to dance was the same.

That sounds like a fascinating study. I don't suppose you know where I could find information on it?

Perhaps you guys are right, and yes, I guess some people are born with the ability to pick up certain things more than others. I drew since I was like 4 or 5 and drawing comes 'easier' to me. That doesn't mean however that another person who loves art and drawing can't be as good as me or even better if they put enough effort in it.

And it doesn't mean that I don't need to practice hard and dedicate my life to this form of art...that's my whole point.

And that's a point I can get behind 100%.

To be honest people saying that they "can't" do something they've never tried is as big a pet peeve for me as them claiming that a successful artist must just be more "talented" then them. I hear the first more often though so it irks me more. There was a time it would get me going off on a 10+ minute rant on the subject but I like to think I've mellowed since then.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

My school (University of Evansville, in Evansville IN) used to do this, and I don't know if it was a part of Indiana University's music program or not, but I think they were connected at one point, or used the same system.

Here's a site that lists the current products on the market -- I think the technology has improved dramatically in the internet years -- supposedly there is even an iphone app that will do this.

Welcome To Ear Training Online


I don't know if these use the same kind of interface (matching the waveforms) -- but the theory seems the same.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

Back for just a moment on the tarab/choreography topic---I achieved that once, or something similar to tarab. At least it was very emotional and profound for me.

My intermediate teacher has a veil routine that I absolutely hated at first (but at the time, I hated veil work anyway because veils like to eat me @___@ ). It took me awhile to memorize the choreography. Then one evening right before class, I got the call from Mom that my stepdad died. That night in class we did our veil routine, and from that moment on, it had a new meaning for me. In one part of he choreography, we pose, extending both of our hands to the sky (for me, that represents Heaven), and we take one arm and trail it down, using pretty hand movements. For me, it meant that my Dad will always love me, and will watch over me from Heaven. When the choreography was over, I broke down and cried hard. That choreography has a special place in my heart now.