Dance shakes the world.

[khanjar]

Couldn't (shouldn't?) the same exact argument be used when people start deviating from traditional belly dance into their own thing?

And they are as what is tribal fusion, it's certainly not traditional, nor is it of the regions concerned, yet now, it is a legitimate style of belly dance through acceptance and popularity.

But if one views videos of social dance from Egypt itself one might notice the fact that some ethnic social dancers also put movement into their enjoyment that comes from other countries and other dance styles, they are doing their own thing as they are enjoying themselves dancing, yet the dance police are not swooping down to chide them for their use of non traditional movement, traditional movement that itself might actually be a fusion of many styles from their cultural history.

 

[Zumarrad]

Dance police: live inside your head. Some vivid imaginations and defensive extrapolations going on here, I suspect.

 

[Aniseteph]

Couldn't (shouldn't?) the same exact argument be used when people start deviating from traditional belly dance into their own thing?

It is, isn't it? :clap:

The Egyptians and so-called dance police are the equivalent of the people on the streets in Harlem in that video Sirène posted, going "WTH even IS that supposed to be???!!!". And people doing the meme are all the folks who label what they are doing "belly dance" because it's on-trend or will attract attention, because in their opinion they they are doing it right, learning from some random person who seems to know what they are doing (that'll be some guy in a mask humping a piece of furniture).

The idea that the meme-people are part of evolving the dance form just because they've picked the same name for something that's completely different is appalling.

People from the culture of origin introduce new styles and influences and moves all the time - but they are inside that culture that can see the context and collectively weed out stuff that doesn't fit or takes it too far from the original spirit and give it a new name when it's turned into something they recognise as a different dance with a different vibe and flavour.

 

[Roshanna]

Dance police: live inside your head. Some vivid imaginations and defensive extrapolations going on here, I suspect.

Wildly OT here now, but I fully intend to do a 'police dance' duet with a good friend in the near future, which will involve an old-style British policeman's helmet covered in blue glitter, and an afwul lot of slapstick silliness. Because boring traditionalists have fun too

 

[Ariadne]

I just had to add this,
[video=youtube;NeGe7lVrXb0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NeGe7lVrXb0#![/video]

 

[Jane]

And because you knew it was only a matter of time...

[video=youtube;seYCA4XkvQI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seYCA4XkvQI[/video]

 

[Jane]

We now have a group of Americans who are annoyed with a group of Egyptians for taking the name of one of their cultural dances and doing something totally different with it in public. Ironic and strange world isn't it?

Who is perceived as the "privileged" group in this situation? Privilege has been one of the seminal points of Orientalism and western cultural imperialism when we borrow dances from other cultures. I honestly don't know what to think, but anthropologists are going to have a darned good time with this one.

 

[DancingArabian]

We now have a group of Americans who are annoyed with a group of Egyptians for taking the name of one of their cultural dances and doing something totally different with it in public. Ironic and strange world isn't it?

Who is perceived as the "privileged" group in this situation? Privilege has been one of the seminal points of Orientalism and western cultural imperialism when we borrow dances from other cultures. I honestly don't know what to think, but anthropologists are going to have a darned good time with this one.

I'm not annoyed I kind of thought it was ironic and strange that Egyptians would use a culturally inaccurate dance (from another culture to boot) as a means of expression but some will frown on how some Americans dance Bellydance. (I'm not implying any kind of generalization but wording gets awkward). It was a pot, kettle thing for me. I think one should hold the same standards of other dances they want theirs held to. But hey, the point of their protest is not about cultural accuracy anyway.

I think that they should protest and by all means use dance, but what's wrong with their beautiful native dances? Why not use something authentic to protest? Why resort to something that makes people laugh at them instead of using the dance forms that draw people to their culture?

 

[Ariadne]

I'm sorry but the more I think about this the more I think that even discussing the videos along with the Harlem Shake dance completely misses the point and/or gives those making the videos way to much credit. The videos are named the Harlem Shake because that is the name of the song. Chances are the vast majority (if not all) of those making the videos (including the original) had no idea there is even a dance with the same name. It's a meme, a viral video of people acting like idiots because they can, people having a little fun, it's not meant to be taken seriously. Like all memes it will last a few weeks or maybe months and then in a year nobody will care about it. The only good thing that may come out because of it is that people are talking about how there really is a dance called the Harlem Shake and now there are people who know it exists that didn't before. The dance has been around for 30 years and will still be around long after no one even remembers a bunch of people flailing about randomly to a fun song.

 

[Jane]

I'm not annoyed

I meant people from Harlem. From interviews on TV, they sound annoyed. Of course, the media is probably playing that up.

 

[Jane]

Ariadne, you're likely right

 

[Zumarrad]

To be fair, I think the people from Harlem are not upset about people from Egypt using it per se. There are a lot of other Harlem Shake videos out there that got a hell of a lot more attention than what eventually turned up in Egypt. And the Egyptians are using it politically - the others are just a fun meme.

 

[Ariadne]

Well to speak of the Egyptian protests specifically the fact they are using these videos as a form of protest is rather significant considering the way anything "western" is under attack there by their leaders. Wearing a mouse head makes it just that much more blatant. I just wish maybe they had picked a "western" meme that involved more clothes. Seriously, what is it with guys being filmed in their underwear?

 

[Sirène]

I think I like the Belly Dance Pizza Place version better. :tongue:

[video=youtube;x66vt7jlTWQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x66vt7jlTWQ[/video]

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Couldn't (shouldn't?) the same exact argument be used when people start deviating from traditional belly dance into their own thing?

Ariadne called it, on the meme being just a meme, but I think there is one thing that needs to be more clear, when we're talking about deviations and traditional.

The ENTIRETY of the "argument" over fusion/deviations/non-traditional etc boils down to one question:

1. Is "belly dance" defined as a movement vocabulary?


It's all about labeling and that one simple definition.

If belly dance is JUST a movement vocabulary, then any dance done using that movement vocabulary is "belly dance."

But if you define belly dance as something MORE than just movement, then movement alone doesn't "qualify" the dance as belly dance.


The issue that Americans have is that so so much of what we want to call "belly dance" is invested in the idea of the movement vocabulary. But trained dancers (in Western styles) recognize that the so-called "belly dance movement vocabulary" isn't unique and isolated to belly dance. What is the difference between Polynesian dance and belly dance? For that matter, what's the diff between contemporary ballet and contemporary modern dance? Highly trained dancers don't talk about movement as the defining factor of their dance -- they talk about the dance philosophy or artistic vision.

The dance fusion trend is huge right now, globally, with trained dancers. You're seeing salsa in modern dance, hip hop in ballet (may I mention Alex Wong -- LOVE that guy!!) and part of that is also a general Orientalized sort of "belly dance" in contemporary and theatrical dance. (I have a theory about this -- as the job market for trained ballet dancers dwindles, they cross-train in other styles hoping to develop some unique kind of style that will get them JOBS. Everybody wants to be the great new thing because that means you can continue paying your rent through dancing and not waiting tables.)


But you know, this idea that there is such a divisive split between what is and isn't belly dance -- this argument is just an internet-based hobby of non-professional dance enthusiasts. Real, true Professional belly dancers, both in the West and in Arab countries, don't play this argument game. But then the Pros who are actually making a living from DANCING are not doing ATS or fusion or whatever. They're dancing in nightclubs and hotels or on TV shows 5 nights a week, and they're doing what Didem and Luna and Outi and Leila do -- which is some version of "Oriental."

So it really doesn't matter what WE students and enthusiasts call it -- in the actual full-time, PAYING, 9-5 world (or I guess it's more like 11-4 world) "Belly Dance" means some variety of ethnic Oriental dance, using some variety of recognizable Arabic/Turkish music, and held to some variety of a cultural "standard" for the presentation.