Our relationshiops with music - new blog post!

[Roshanna]

I've just finished writing a new blog post about our relationships with music, and how Western dancers can relate emotionally to Arabic music compared to the music that we grew up with. I hope that you find it interesting
In Love With Music | Bellydance by Rasha Nour

 

[Roshanna]

Oops, I think this might have been better in the music section. Sorry!

 

[Darshiva]

Ilove this blog post. I shared it with my student group on facebook because I want them to understand that this is what I'm trying to get them to achieve - an emotional connection with the music.

 

[Roshanna]

Ilove this blog post. I shared it with my student group on facebook because I want them to understand that this is what I'm trying to get them to achieve - an emotional connection with the music.

Thank you, I'm so glad you found it useful!

 

[Yame]

I've just finished writing a new blog post about our relationships with music, and how Western dancers can relate emotionally to Arabic music compared to the music that we grew up with. I hope that you find it interesting
In Love With Music | Bellydance by Rasha Nour

I totally agree and relate to everything you wrote. Very well-written post, with many good points. Basically, there are varying levels of appreciation and understanding of music... which we take for granted with the music we grew up with.

The first level is hearing the music and being able to feel something. Without knowing anything about the song, without understanding the words if there are any, just being able to emotionally relate to the sounds you are hearing. Even this level is a huge step if you're talking about foreign music. It might take a lot of immersion to achieve it.

The second level is hearing the music and being able to conjure up memories from it, because it has been a part of your life for so long. This takes years of immersion, it comes from loving the music so much that you turn to it in your times of extreme sadness or happiness... this is something that will generally only happen with the music we have really loved, throughout our lives. It will also happen with music that is just generally overplayed (in the radio, clubs, etc) in our culture for a certain period of time. We begin to relate this music with the things we went through during that time, the things that happened in our lives, the things that happened in other people's lives, the things that were happening in society, etc.


Somewhere before, or after, or between these two levels, there is the level of understanding of what the song means. Regarding understanding of the song, there are many levels of that, as well. This piece of the puzzle is complicated because it depends on what music we're talking about, where it's from vs. where we're from, our understanding of the language, our ability to make out the words, our exposure to what it is that the artist meant. There are a lot of layers to this.

The first layer is being able to understand the words on a basic level. Hearing the words, knowing what they are, knowing what they mean. If it's in a foreign language we don't speak, it is likely that we will understand 0-2% of the words, which is basically meaningless. If it's in a foreign language we speak somewhat, we might understand anywhere between a few to most of the words, so we might be able to pick out a lot of the meaning, but will still miss out on some. If it's in a foreign language we speak fluently but we did not live for a long time in the place or subculture where the song is from, we will understand the meaning but may miss out on some slang and cultural references, depending on how much of these things exist in the song. If it's in a foreign language we speak fluently and DID live for a while within that place/culture, we will probably be able to understand everything and pick out all or most of the cultural references and slang. However, we still may not know the full meaning and intention behind the song. Who is this song specifically about? Why did the artist write it? With a lot of music, you can only know that if the artist tells you. A lot of times, this is only public knowledge if the artist and song is famous enough that s/he has been interviewed about it. So on top of having to speak the language fluently, and having been immersed in the culture enough to understand slang and cultural references, you also have to research the artist and the song (and be lucky enough to be able to find that information) in order to fully understand it.

So the full level of understanding is extremely hard to achieve. Think about all the music we hear on the radio... even in our own language. Think about how much of the words we understand (and how much we don't! There is soooo much music out there where it's impossible to make out the words). Out of the music we can understand and sing along, how much about it do we really know? Do we know what the composer meant? Do we know what message they were trying to convey? It's very rare that we truly do!

It is still possible to be able to feel the music without understanding what the words mean, it's possible to feel it even on that second level where the music conjures up strong memories and nostalgia because it has been with you for so long. If you don't believe this happens with foreign music, just go to any foreign country. Having grown up in Brazil, I can tell you with 100% certainty that people CAN love and feel music they don't understand. A lot of the music we listen to (depending on where you are, specifically) is American. And a lot of Brazilians listening to it don't speak English. But they still listen to it, and enjoy it, and grow up with it, such that it becomes as much a part of their lives and culture as it is our own. Their understanding of the music may be incomplete, but the music is still a part of them (just a note on this, people generally prefer and relate MORE to music in their own language from their own culture. So I am giving this example so you see that it exists, but don't think it is the rule rather than the exception). In that sense, Arabic music can become a part of us as well, even if we never learn any Arabic or look up song translations.

However the feeling may be incomplete unless we know and understand the words. We might be interpreting the song in a way that has nothing to do with its meaning (This is sometimes okay, I believe there is a lot more leeway in song interpretation than a lot of belly dancers might think... we really DON'T have to only work within the parameters of the literal meaning of the song, because we ourselves are artists and our genuine feelings for the music may be different from those of other dancers and the composer/singer of the song. However sometimes it's not okay, in extreme cases where for example the song is very political, about some tyrant having killed your family and you're hopping about with a huge smile on your face making gestures to the audience like it's a love song. Actually with gestures in general, they really need to correspond to the music, even in non-extreme scenarios).

And understanding, as I hope I made clear in my paragraph about the layers of understanding, goes much beyond looking up a general song translation and knowing what it means and what it's about. When the music starts playing, are we able to genuinely interpret the words as they come out of the singer's mouth? No, we aren't. This is why we are incomplete in comparison to native dancers. The words in the music are a whole piece of the music we miss out on... even if we know the general meaning. Because the interpretation of the words is not coming out genuinely and intuitively if we don't speak the language. Relying on someone else's translation of a song is FAR from genuine interpretation. It is almost like being deaf, and relying on a conductor to show you what the music sounds like in order to dance to it. You are not directly translating the music with your body, you are translating what someone else said about the music with your body.

Since we are not deaf, and we can interpret the sounds of the instruments and words directly ourselves, it's not the end of the world that we can not genuinely interpret the meanings of the words as they come, but it does mean that there is a little piece within those layers and layers of depth in the music that we are "deaf" to. We can still be amazing dancers, we can still know the music and make the interpretation real and genuine, it's just always a little bit incomplete.

This is why I also decided to start learning Arabic. To be come a little less incomplete. I'll probably never achieve the level of fluency to be able to understand everything, in fact, I may not even be able to get past Arabic 102 because there are no such classes in my area. But every little bit helps. Some people may not be able to do that at all. But again, every little bit helps. A general translation is better than nothing. A line-by-line translation is better than a general translation. And so on, and so forth...

But even more important than translations, is being able to relate to and feel the music. The more of those things you can achieve, the less incomplete your interpretation will be.

 

[Roshanna]

Yame, that is a brilliant post! I completely agree, that's kind of what I was getting at but much more clearly stated
I'm going to add a link to this thread and also the thread on bhuz to the original post, as there have been some really insightful comments which add a lot to the discussion.

 

[Mosaic]

First off Roshanna I've moved your thread to music I think it should be in Music as you mentioned.

Love the blog post - so many points of your blog resonate with me. Especially the "memory" music/songs. I recently found my way back to some of Bob Marley's music & the fun times at uni I had (like you singing at the top of our voices ) Abba songs ( yes I'm that old LOL!) Recently found Gotye's music especially "Somebody I used To Know" with Kimbra. Then along comes the Cairo orchestra playing Al Atlal (my favourite version of this beautiful piece) ... WOW I could listen to that on repeat for hours. But my main listening feast is ME music - my husband & son "don't get it" though so much of my listening and absorbing is done in the car or when I'm home alone. Music wherever it comes from is soul food it can take you on some amazing journeys.
~Mosaic

 

[Yame]

Yame, that is a brilliant post! I completely agree, that's kind of what I was getting at but much more clearly stated
I'm going to add a link to this thread and also the thread on bhuz to the original post, as there have been some really insightful comments which add a lot to the discussion.

I don't think it was more clearly stated... your blog was very clear. I could really relate to everything you said, as I've been thinking about these topics a lot over the past year... but reading your blog helped me organize those thoughts in my head, so I figured I should put it in my own words to further "concretize" my philosophy.

 

[Amulya]

Arabic and Turkish music has been part of all my adult life so I do have the memories and feeling with certain songs. I do not know of all the songs what they are about but it was the same with English songs: I grew up with those but didn't know what they meant as a kid and later when I knew English it was still an issue as I am not good at 'hearing lyrics properly' (not even with Dutch), I hear the craziest lyrics hahaha which is fun. But a lot of English songs have a different emotion to me than what the lyrics try to say (a lot of sad songs sound upbeat!) Same with Arabic and Turkish sometimes.
For all languages when I read the lyrics or translations I am often disappointed about how utterly tacky they are hahahaha! Not all, but most.

 

[Amulya]

Oh no, the edit button disappeared so I will just add an extra post:
I wonder if the fact that I have synesthesy changes how I feel music. That the lyrics sometimes doesn't match the 'feel' of the melody for me.

 

[shiradotnet]

The first level is hearing the music and being able to feel something. Without knowing anything about the song, without understanding the words if there are any, just being able to emotionally relate to the sounds you are hearing. Even this level is a huge step if you're talking about foreign music. It might take a lot of immersion to achieve it.

In my experience, whether my own culture or foreign music, there are SOME songs that evoke this reaction in me. Even if the song is from my own culture, in my own language, I don't always "hear" the words - I just react viscerally to the melody.

The second level is hearing the music and being able to conjure up memories from it, because it has been a part of your life for so long. This takes years of immersion, it comes from loving the music so much that you turn to it in your times of extreme sadness or happiness... this is something that will generally only happen with the music we have really loved, throughout our lives. It will also happen with music that is just generally overplayed (in the radio, clubs, etc) in our culture for a certain period of time. We begin to relate this music with the things we went through during that time, the things that happened in our lives, the things that happened in other people's lives, the things that were happening in society, etc.

I agree with part of this, and disagree with part. YES to the part that we come to associate certain songs with certain memories. But where I disagree is the part about requiring years of immersion. For example, the very first time I ever heard the song Erev Shel Shoshanim was on the first belly dance record I bought, one by Ozel Turkbas, and I loved the song the first time I heard it. The song made several memories for me, the most important being the memory of my first belly dance solo in public, and the association with becoming engaged to be married (which I did a week before setting foot in my first belly dance class). I didn't need years of immersion in Middle Eastern music to start making memories with this song. I liked it the first time I heard it, and it quickly became associated with some of my important life experiences.

Another example is that John Bilezikjian's recording of Dance, Sallamah, Dance is deeply associated with my first job out of college, as that's a song that a belly dance teacher I studied with in Ohio used in class. That song is deeply linked with my memories of being lonely in a new city, struggling to adjust to the relocation, dealing with my first professional job, and so on.

Somewhere before, or after, or between these two levels, there is the level of understanding of what the song means. Regarding understanding of the song, there are many levels of that, as well. This piece of the puzzle is complicated because it depends on what music we're talking about, where it's from vs. where we're from, our understanding of the language, our ability to make out the words, our exposure to what it is that the artist meant. There are a lot of layers to this.

The first layer is being able to understand the words on a basic level. Hearing the words, knowing what they are, knowing what they mean.

So the full level of understanding is extremely hard to achieve. Think about all the music we hear on the radio... even in our own language. Think about how much of the words we understand (and how much we don't! There is soooo much music out there where it's impossible to make out the words). Out of the music we can understand and sing along, how much about it do we really know? Do we know what the composer meant? Do we know what message they were trying to convey? It's very rare that we truly do!

I agree that even when a song is in our own language, even if we grew up with it, we often have never *really* listened to it. In the past couple of years, I've been transferring a lot of the songs I grew up with onto my iPod so I can listen to them in my car driving around town. And often, for the first time EVER, I've actually paid attention to the lyrics and thought, "Really? That's what that song is about?" It's been quite a revelation, to consider all those times I'd heard those very songs on the radio, over and over, without ever paying attention and knowing what the song was actually about.

And, in opposition to the point you were trying to make, I've realized that if I could associate life experience with songs from my own culture without truly realizing what they were about, then of course I can still associate life experience with songs I did NOT hear in childhood.

From a belly dance perspective, there's a LOT of life experience we can link to the songs we dance to: our memories of the individuals in the live bands who played them for us, our memories of our first solos, our memories of troupe-mates who used to perform them with us, our memories of afterparties with friends at big belly dance festivals, and more.

And this is why I think it's essential for belly dance teachers to use MIDDLE EASTERN MUSIC in our classes and troupe choreographies. If we don't expose our students to these songs in the classroom, and if we don't insist that they use Middle Eastern music for their beginning performances, then how will they ever have an opportunity to link life experiences to this music?

 

[Roshanna]

And this is why I think it's essential for belly dance teachers to use MIDDLE EASTERN MUSIC in our classes and troupe choreographies. If we don't expose our students to these songs in the classroom, and if we don't insist that they use Middle Eastern music for their beginning performances, then how will they ever have an opportunity to link life experiences to this music?

Totally agree. The middle Eastern songs that hold the most memories for me are the ones my teachers used at different points in my life. For example, this song is the first Arabic song I ever heard, at the first Bellydance class I went to, in the summer of 2008. I listened to it a lot, because the class CD of it was the only Arabic music I had. It reminds me of long hot summer days staying with my parents during the summer break from university, and the excitement of a fairly new relationship...
[video=youtube;vloPO5D6xyk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vloPO5D6xyk&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/video]