P.i.t.a

khanjar

New member
Yeah, that is my perception of myself and why I am not here so much these days as some may be aware I have at least found out why I am somewhat gender sensitive and attracted to belly dance, where if I can extend myself, I hope to join the troupe this year as it has been suggested I go to rehersals at least and take it from there as befits my feeling and ability, for they know I am sensitive and self depreciating.

But gender sensitive because though male, I am more comfortable with females but being male I don't fit in with females from most others perspectives but I don't fit in with males either from my own perspective and asexual I am no threat to women but I am perceived to be or is it I insult masculinity.

Anyhoo, it is a difficult time for me now understanding why I am this way, the understanding is comfortable but it does not help society where I have to exist, I am comfortable in androgyny but society seeks the binary, we are at odds as ever we were, but at least I understand why now, and it is biological, perhaps even designed by nature for there are many names to describe through antiquity and across the world's surface, where Khawal and Mukhannath could fit in terms of the regions where this dance comes from. Yeah I understand the connotations but perhaps one cannot deny what nature made them and perhaps the connotations are of the usual binary perspective in that they have no idea what it is like to be naturally or as God intended; between the binaries as I understand there are various Hadith protecting.

But apologies to all regards my gender sensitivity, for I seek true equality in all things non biological for equality in my view is humanity evolving for we are all human after all.

And guess what, belly dance has caused a lot of this for that feeling women feel when performing this dance males feel it too and with many males it really does cause them to question and research and with some, to seek karyotype testing to have their suspicions confirmed, but I am thankful to belly dance for it has made me use science to seek the truth of myself a truth I was for decades avoiding because I suspected I was not what I was trying to be, but given what I was, I had to fit in somewhere where the logical choice was what I was nearest to, although I was never comfortable.

Okay so to belly dance, don't worry I am not another cross dressing male, a female wannabe and although Zorba leads the way regards dancing in skirts, I will refrain mostly and actually seek the Galabiya as Egyptian style is what I do and Miro looks just male and nothing else besides beautiful in dance if I am allowed to say that? And besides if the bedlah is the female belly dance uniform, what is the male if it is not the galabiya, maybe those more knowledgeable might like to comment as many may understand as in real life male attire in dance is rather limited.

But one day my friends, you know who you are from years past you will see me making an ass of myself on youtube for I just have to be the novelty act and the P.I.T.A to my dance school as in what do we do with the male. Although I have just reconnected with my old dance class who perform mostly, they are very encouraging to me.

Part two to come, beware.
 

Mosaic

Super Moderator
Just be yourself, accept who you are & others will come to appreciate you. I hope the day will come when you are able to post to youtube, you have many supporters here:)
~Mosaic
 

AndreaSTL

New member
To the uninitiated this probably just looks like a dude in a dress, but we all know it's Tito in a glittery galabiya. ;)

IMG_2735.jpg

In all seriousness, I can't imagine what it's like feeling like you float between genders never really seeming to fully be a part of either. It must be incredibly frustrating and lonely, but I would suspect that sometimes it's funny as hell. It sounds like you're learning more and coming to terms with it, though, so congrats on that! ((big virtual hug))
 

Farasha Hanem

New member
Ohhh. When I first read the title, I was thinking this thread was going to either be about the animal rights organization, or about the bread. :redface: Sorry, Khanjar!
 
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Duvet

Member
You might be a PITA, khanjar, but you're also a challenge worth rising to (for yourself and others). Challenges help us learn and adapt, and you seem to be learning a lot about yourself. Bellydance is an ideal vehicle for self exploration and expression, so long may you continue with it. Good luck with the troupe and I look forward to watching you on youtube some day. No - edit that - I look forward to seeing you dance in person some day, in whatever costume you choose to wear and in which ever style you choose to do it in.
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
Hang in there, Khanjar. Everyone must find their own path in this dance - as in life - keep questing and you'll find your way. I know fairly little about "in-between genders", but I certainly share your annoyance with expected gender "roles". Even though I'm male, I fit comfortably with the gals - and the guys too.
 

khanjar

New member
You might be a PITA, khanjar, but you're also a challenge worth rising to (for yourself and others). Challenges help us learn and adapt, and you seem to be learning a lot about yourself. Bellydance is an ideal vehicle for self exploration and expression, so long may you continue with it. Good luck with the troupe and I look forward to watching you on youtube some day. No - edit that - I look forward to seeing you dance in person some day, in whatever costume you choose to wear and in which ever style you choose to do it in.

Sometimes it is so hard to exist as this as before the answer the question irritated and now the truth compels and it is constantly in mind to quit belly dance as I understand if I quit this dance a lot of the feelings this dance creates fades. No it doesn't go, but I can ignore that part of me as I am adept at ignoring that part of me, but in ignoring one is existing to another's plan.

But I understand from a clued observer that I should not shirk what I started for I started for a reason and often the reason isn't what is most obvious to us, where to most of us it is a personal journey into understanding the self, and I have taken a route that is revealing results where past kinder routes have simply failed to hold interest never mind reveal anything useful or truthful and so I must continue because the medicine is working.

Also to a clued observer my dancing is artistic and of gender concerns, it wanders, although I am clearly in touch with my feminine side, something not observed in a few other student male dancers but my biggest issue appears to be and is, I agree; a lack of self confidence and a feeling of not fitting in- yeah, that run for the hills and hide feeling all the time, not just when one makes a mess of something.

But from a male perspective to my observer, my observation of males in this, is to give males a break for males to get up there and dance is hard enough in countries were culturally men don't dance and the feelings this dance creates, well, a lot of men are scared of such feelings and don't know how to handle them except quit. So to my observer they not being male I can give them a clue for what is easy for one may not be for another and for reasons they never encounter, so don't think about. Encourage any who dare to try for everyone is on a personal journey and if we can't help humanity become better why hinder it because of outdated non sense.

But I am annoyed at the moment my dancing is grounded through falling off a motorcycle and I am not sure if I have bruised myself or I have broke something and so I guess I will know by how long it takes to heal where I am treating rigorously with arnica and comfrey, for it's rib damage and I have lost the core strength in one side. But falling off the motorcycle reinforced the fact that I am not as fit as I used to be, I have started to decline and so must work harder for if I don't by the time I have exorcised my demons and I am ready to blossom I will be too unfit to do so and that will be very cruel so I know what I have to do and I will.

And the motorcycle, I patched it up and sold it, I am not strong enough nor quick thinking enough for those things, I will stick to four wheels in future.
 
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Duvet

Member
There's a lot of truthes here.
A speedy recovery to your health, and keep on with the learning.
 

walladah

New member
THat is so brave of you Khanjar! however, you know already that binary thinking is constructed, particularly in patriarchal societies like the ones we live in.

Let me tell you what i think.

In a world of constructed genders and constructed hierarchy of genders, there is no way to find a solution through biology. As a woman, i can tell you that i do not fit anywhere too, because what society wants me to be is not me. Same with men. most of them, although considered priviledged in terms of social status, they are not happy and they are not accepting the gender roles attributed to them. All non-violent men are considered to be less-than-men. Many of them grow up as kids receiving bullying, disdain and violence by people around, and the worst violence is not always the physical one. Some of them have not had the relationships they wanted because they were considered not men enough.

Then it is great mess, all this case about the genders. Stop thinking about biology, for all humans have all hormones and i have testosterone and you have oestrogens. Start thinking how you want to live and what you want to do with your body.

Remember that most men are discouraged from expresing themselves through their bodies if the expression is non-violent. I have met as a dancer teacher a lady (student of mine) whose son loved dance but they never let him to attend ANY lesson, not in bellydance of course, but not even in hip hop or traditional greek dances (most of them are very man-experience centred). THey wanted their kid not to move so that he does not become a gay or so. THis child will always have this urge to dance and feel the pleasure of movement and will always remember his father's denial to the child having dance classes - unless he forgets about what society asks a man to be, what society asks a woman to be.

Believe me, it is difficult even for men who apparently fulfill all requirements of patriarchy. THey are devastated by patriarchy, they have no control over their identity at all... men are wearing dresses in most places in the world today and they are dancing in them. THey were dancing in feathers, fake tails and jewellery since very ancient times and only after patriarchy this has been considered to be non-manly. In some cultures even long hair of men is considered non-manly. I kept defending my male classmates at highschool for the teachers were insulting them in front of all class for their long hair. To me, f.ex. long hair on men looks very very manly. It is a matter of perception, the community you have grown in, the structure of community etc. In my home village men dance the local version of bellydance and no-one ever thought that they are less than men, as people in other parts of the country believe. Actually, being a man in my village includes that you can dance with your beloved woman who is bellydancing.

Then, i am looking forward to your videos and troupe performances and i hope that your valenty will permit your students, men and women to enjoy art, and their bodies and their identities.

A big hug from Greece! you are a real man actually! do what you want, love the people you want, gender is really a construction and nowadays is still a suppressive construction.

By the way: being not dangerous to women is a real man's feature.
 
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khanjar

New member
THat is so brave of you Khanjar! however, you know already that binary thinking is constructed, particularly in patriarchal societies like the ones we live in.

Let me tell you what i think.

In a world of constructed genders and constructed hierarchy of genders, there is no way to find a solution through biology. As a woman, i can tell you that i do not fit anywhere too, because what society wants me to be is not me. Same with men. most of them, although considered priviledged in terms of social status, they are not happy and they are not accepting the gender roles attributed to them. All non-violent men are considered to be less-than-men. Many of them grow up as kids receiving bullying, disdain and violence by people around, and the worst violence is not always the physical one. Some of them have not had the relationships they wanted because they were considered not men enough.

Then it is great mess, all this case about the genders. Stop thinking about biology, for all humans have all hormones and i have testosterone and you have oestrogens. Start thinking how you want to live and what you want to do with your body.

Remember that most men are discouraged from expresing themselves through their bodies if the expression is non-violent. I have met as a dancer teacher a lady (student of mine) whose son loved dance but they never let him to attend ANY lesson, not in bellydance of course, but not even in hip hop or traditional greek dances (most of them are very man-experience centred). THey wanted their kid not to move so that he does not become a gay or so. THis child will always have this urge to dance and feel the pleasure of movement and will always remember his father's denial to the child having dance classes - unless he forgets about what society asks a man to be, what society asks a woman to be.

Believe me, it is difficult even for men who apparently fulfill all requirements of patriarchy. THey are devastated by patriarchy, they have no control over their identity at all... men are wearing dresses in most places in the world today and they are dancing in them. THey were dancing in feathers, fake tails and jewellery since very ancient times and only after patriarchy this has been considered to be non-manly. In some cultures even long hair of men is considered non-manly. I kept defending my male classmates at highschool for the teachers were insulting them in front of all class for their long hair. To me, f.ex. long hair on men looks very very manly. It is a matter of perception, the community you have grown in, the structure of community etc. In my home village men dance the local version of bellydance and no-one ever thought that they are less than men, as people in other parts of the country believe. Actually, being a man in my village includes that you can dance with your beloved woman who is bellydancing.

Then, i am looking forward to your videos and troupe performances and i hope that your valenty will permit your students, men and women to enjoy art, and their bodies and their identities.

A big hug from Greece! you are a real man actually! do what you want, love the people you want, gender is really a construction and nowadays is still a suppressive construction.

By the way: being not dangerous to women is a real man's feature.

Too true Walladah, this society we re all subjected to is not a true representation of humanity where I understand through my various ponderings and subsequent research what we are subject to really is myths, half truths and downright lies and I know the origin of much of it and so I am glad I am pagan, for pagan I can look what seeks to hinder in the eye if I can find the strength and say not me for I don't believe in your ways, for the patriarchal society that enslaves us all female and male from where does it come if it is not religion ?

Yeah religion caused a lot of it, but now the new religion has long since started the new onslaught, that new religion being media for everything we are is now commercial and what education is proffered as long as it makes money it does not matter if it is not right, the future does not matter in our world of short term gain.

I used to be a soldier and a marksman in my youth and I have experienced one campaign, now I am a belly dancer and how life moves on, but it was my soldiering that first alerted me to my difference and it took twenty years and one failed marriage to find out why. But I am not alone, another ex soldier I know and ex special forces at that has now completed trans gender, something I hope to resist as I am not strong enough for that and I do see that as escapism from what I am, where if I were to accept my spiritual belief I must understand nature made me this way for a reason, I am nature's design and must learn to live with it and accept it as it is, as what I am as perhaps third gender, if I am allowed to be complete.

As to biology we all started out as female, it is why males have nipples and in some cases breast tissue, where Genesis states that male came first and female later, but then religion isn't biological fact. Hormones, well, I know I am not a red blooded male, I never was but I was content in my own little world but now the medics are all excited they want to try me on synthetic testosterone to see if it makes me more of a man where I am resisting that suggestion through well I know what testosterone is capable of and I quite like passive little me and besides I try to absorb the beauty of life now not seek to destroy it. Yeah maybe it might have been useful in my teens and early twenties but not now approaching middle age with all the health concerns that comes with it.

Male and female, ultimately male and female exist for making babies, everything else is just human, so anything that is not making babies orientated should be just human, this for men, for women stuff is dividing us and I for one wish that not to be so.
 

walladah

New member
what can i say?

Khanjar,

please do not take any medicine one you are happy with how you feel. Testosterone does not make men more manly, actually, it has been proven that too much testosterone makes them dull. Moreover, to try transgender, i mean without operations etc, that would be ok, if you feel like it. Do not take military masculinity models as the correct ones, actually the military masculine type is the worst, wrongest and the most oppressive ever existed in this world. Bellydance might permit you to try transgender in performance and see how you feel about that. You know, many people like transgendering for a performance or ritual because they can experience what they are not, not because they are what they perform. Concerning medical means to go transgender, that is another story, because in most cases it will be irrevesible and you need to think a lot about that.

Moreover, i absolutely agree with you: the picture we have in our head that man are like this and that, woman is like that and this, and that everything else or every other aspect of being a man and/or a woman is wrong, is exactly to reduce ourselves to children-making machines.

Watch this too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6LkXb60Znk

The mask performance reminded me of many ancient rituals where men were free to dress up as women and free themselves from what a man in their society had to be: non-respectful to women, aggressive, soldier, unable to form and friendship or love relationship with women. You know, in many cases in ancient greece in the very patriarchal comunities, men were expected to have a wife for procreation but they were ridiculised if they had any spiritual or sentimental connection to her, then they were expected to have spiritual/sentimental connection to men only. Pericles was badly gossiped in Athens because he loved Aspasia and kissed her in front of people. The good king of Sparta Kleomenis who... "inherited" the wife and male-friend/lover from the previous king was gossiped because he loved her so much that when he was at a battle field, he travelled all night to be with her and returned in the morning to go to the battle.

THen ritual and transgendering for men was necessary to approach women and become friends, create the relationships they needed so much and get rid spontaneously from the silly men's world full of violence.

I think that bellydance will give you many many chances to try other forms of masculinity which are not considered less-than-man in other parts of the world, not so much integrated in western-capitalist-patriarchal society. You will also be able to approach forms of feminity or transgendering within the safe space of performance.

Please, stay away from medical hormones, until you are sure whether and to what extent you want to change you body.
 

Greek Bonfire

Well-known member
Hang in there, Khanjar. Everyone must find their own path in this dance - as in life - keep questing and you'll find your way. I know fairly little about "in-between genders", but I certainly share your annoyance with expected gender "roles". Even though I'm male, I fit comfortably with the gals - and the guys too.

Exactly. And even if you do look like most of the others, there are also other "disapprovals" within those circles too, so also as Mosaic said, just be yourself and stay wtihin the circles who support you. You're never going to win it all anyway and neither are the rest of us.
 

Amulya

Moderator
Yes more important to be happy with who you are than trying to make others happy by trying to fit into some idea of what a man is supposed to be.

Walladah, the video is extremely blurry, or is that just my YouTube player playing up?
 
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