Strippers as students

[samra(kelly hawes)]

To my fellow instructors:

How do you react when you learn that one of your students is also an exotic dancer?

I live in a small, conservative town where I am still having to fight the old stereotype that equates belly dancers to strippers. I'm not sure that I would be as concerned with this question if I lived in a more cosmopolitan city. But once in a while, a student makes it obvious that she is taking my class to learn new moves and get costuming ideas that she can use in her other job.

I understand that I cannot dictate what professions my students select, but does this situation make anyone else uncomfortable as a teacher?

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this subject.

Kelly Hawes

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

A couple of years ago we had an exotic dancer in the class and I suspect there were a few more. it didn't bother me in the least that they wanted to augment their repertoire with some BD moves. Ironically, the one girl didn't last long and quit shortly after. You may have an opportunity to discuss the history Of Middle Eastern Dance in general with all the students. Something long the lines of blatant sexuality vs. sensuality, intergrity of the dancer representing the art form etc. As far as costuming is concerned, you can point out the differences in costuming via visuals in addition to the expense. I can't imagine how an exotic dancer can artfully disrobe a a belly dance costume while swinging from a pole
In the end don't discriminate against her because of her profession, you may have a potential convert.
Yasmine

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I've had current and former strippers in class (actually they were topless dancers -- I'm not sure if we even have actual strippers in my town). I've also had competitive ballroom dancers in class. Don't worry over what your students do when they're not in your class. If you had a performing company and thought there might be a conflict of interest, you could discuss it with her, but just having her in class -- don't sweat it. You may actually have more strippers than you know. Not all of them advertise they're strippers LOL!

The only problem I had with my stripper students was a tendency to hold the legs too far apart and really accent pelvic and hip circles to the front. And they had wobbly horizontal figure 8's that I couldn't break them of.

 

[Shanazel]

What my students do outside my class is none of my business. When a student made it known to me that she is an exotic dancer, I said "cool", and got on with the lesson. And if any self-righteous conservative folks ever had the nerve to turn up protesting her presence, I'd carry a sign in defense of her right to be there. This woman was a pleasant person with a gorgeous face and a great body who made more in a month of stripping than I make in half a year of working at a law firm. There are those who would say hers was the more honorable profession .

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

It is interesting and ironic that erotic dancers/strippers have more venues and make more money than professional bellydancers who fight over limited venues for $25-$50 a set! soething is wrong with this picture and people still mistake bellydancers for strippers....duh
Yasmine

 

[Shanazel]

Oh, lord, is that all a professional belly dancer makes after all these years? That really sucks. I made that much for two fifteen minute sets in 1978.
It makes me sadder than I can say that the pay for dancers has not gone up in damned near thirty years.

Do you suppose that is why Kaya and Sadie have evolved their dance in the somewhat questionable direction it has gone? Better money? Just for the record, I have not a thing in the world against exotic dancers who are what they are without apology, but it riles me to see belly dance presented as erotic by dancers who should know better.

 

[Zandra&Zindor]

No one would be concerned even a little bit?

Hi, everyone.

I was with Kelly when she was typing the original question. She would not want me speaking for her, so don't even think that I am writing this with her blessing or knowledge. She might even be mad at me for stating my opinion here, since it was her question, not mine.

I just wanted to make it clear that Kelly is probably one of the least judgmental people I have ever met. I can guarantee that no one who has interacted with her would ever suggest that she is self-righteous. She would be horribly insulted if anyone ever called her conservative, because she is about as left-leaning as a person can be without falling off the scale. She is not a woman who thinks of a strip club as a den of sin. She does not castigate topless dancers for their choice of profession, nor does she treat them as anything less than vital human beings whether or not they are her students.

I know of at least three strippers who have taken her classes and can guarantee that she has never turned any of these women away. She talks to ALL of her students about "blatant sexuality vs. sensuality" and the "integrity of the dancer representing the art form," just as our instructor discussed the same things with us. One of the dancers in my favorite painting of hers is topless, so you can see for yourself that she is not at all bothered by female nudity.

Unfortunately, we live in a community that won't blink an eye to see a woman walking around our beach area in a teeny-tiny bikini, but these same people will sometimes act as if a woman wearing a conservative belly dance costume is showing too much skin and might try to steal their husbands. Last July, I was at an advertised restaurant performance where a woman kept loudly ordering her boyfriend, "Don't look at her! Don't look at her! If you look at her I'll hit you." Kelly was not dancing in a sexual or seductive way, so I found that woman's behavior insulting and completely absurd.

Kelly has worked hard to assure our community that belly dancing is a healthy, non-threatening art form and to make everyone (ESPECIALLY women) in the audience feel comfortable and valued. This has not been an easy conversion for this conservative area, but our community is finally starting to understand that belly dance is appropriate even for family entertainment. As a result, Kelly is in constant demand.

She has had at least three strippers (possibly more) in her classes in the past couple of years and has never turned any one of them away.

To me, her question speaks to more to the problem of the ancient stereotype that views belly dancers AS STRIPPERS and whether anyone else out there is still having to fight this perception . . . or to fight your own fears about this perception.

Let me redirect the question in another way: If a stripper took the stage using belly dance moves that you taught that person and attire that mimicked your profession, would that make you feel the least bit uncomfortable? What if you discovered that a stripper went to a bachelor party in belly dance attire, used your moves, then took her costume off as part of the entertainment? Would that create any discomfort at all for you?

I'm not saying that these specific events have happened to Kelly, but rather that she has probably wondered if they might happen someday. She wanted to know if she was all alone having these concerns because of our specific community.

From the responses so far, it seems perhaps that she, alone, has these concerns, so perhaps everyone else should be very thankful for their open-minded communities.

Again, though I am Kelly's friend and we have had these discussions between us before, I do not intend to speak for her. Rather I just wanted to voice my own interpretation as a loyal friend who thinks her question may have been misinterpreted to mean that she would not act professionally with some of her students.

Well, I've probably mucked this whole thing up now because I've written way too much and probably interpreted everyone else's responses incorrectly.

No harm meant.

Zandra

 

[Shanazel]

Dear Zandra,

Don't apologize; perhaps you did misinterpret some responses, but that's okay- you did it with a loving heart.

Kelly said, "I understand that I cannot dictate what professions my students select, but does this situation make anyone else uncomfortable as a teacher?"

My answer is no, I am not uncomfortable with a stripper doing a movements she learned in my class for part of her routine. That is her business. Mine is to teach belly dance. I taught creative writing for years- it's none of my business if those people use those skills to write pornography, either. I quit trying to bring people up to my cultural standards years ago .

What a good friend you are to have taken this subject up, though! I'm sorry if either you or Kelly thought I was passing judgement on her. It never occurred to me to do so. I am from a very small conservative town in Arkansas, and have a good idea what she means by "conservative." I have little patience with the attitude, and that is why I live here instead of there. I sympathize with anyone who has to deal with those challenges.

Please realize that when one of us asks a question on this forum, the others answer honestly and sometimes vehemently, but the vehemence is for the subject and not for the person who posed the question.

Shanazel

 

[taheya]

I agree that teachers cannot be concerned with what their students do with the knowledge that you give them. As long as the teacher has taught the student about history/culture of the dance and how to correctly protray the dance the dance then they have done their job.
I do however feel uncomfortable when i see belly danceresque type dancers stripping or portraying the dance in an overtly sexual way, eg. tourist hotsposts in turkey usually have dancers getting men up, taking off their shirts etc and the tourists love it!! I think people then go away thinking that was authentic dancing and that what really makes me mad

 

[Moon]

It's so sad people think what the strippers do is authentic bellydance...
When they see a stripper in a nurse outfit or a fireman outfit or whatever, they also know it's just a stripper's act.
Why can't it be just like that for bellydance?

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

Dear Zandra&Zindor, I didn't perceive that Kelly in any particular way and responded to her posts because she wanted to know if this situation makes us feel uncomfortable. My answer was along the lines that it didn't bother me. Obviously, there was some concern on her part or she would not have asked the question. So I think you misinterpreted the responses. To answer your question regarding a stripper using moves I taught . Again it really doesn't bother me if he/she wanted to augment his/her repertoire and once again the dancer would have to be very creative to shed a BD costume while dancing or swinging from a pole. How would anyone knew what she did was BD? And how would anyone know that I was a teacher?
Yasmine

 

[sstacy123]

I understand her concerns and would probably have them too if I was a teacher (I think I'd be uncomfortable is there was a fellow student)but because I'm not a teacher that's why I didn't orginally respond. There are so many dancers trying to break the sterotype to turn around and teach someone that could possibly help perpetuate it. And I hope no one thinks I am saying they should be treated differently because I'm not.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Zandra and Kelly,
We're not bashing you, please don't think that. You asked if we had a problem with it -- with having those two "images" clashing, and it looks like most of us don't. I can see how you might be concerned about it, but unless I seriously misjudge your community (which I might be doing) then I don't see it being a problem for you.

Zandra, you wrote:
"If a stripper took the stage using belly dance moves that you taught that person and attire that mimicked your profession, would that make you feel the least bit uncomfortable?"

I've heard of strippers dressing up like "harem girls" or "genies" but I've neevr heard of one wearing a REAL belly dance costume. Our professional attire isn't harem pants, a face veil, and a fez -- despite that trend in the 1970s.

And as far as the "moves" -- we have to remember that a so-called horizontal hip figure 8 does not BELONG to bellydance. The same hip movements are used in dances all over the world. We do hip work in eastern European folk dance, pelvic work in w. African dance, and look at all the hip work in the Latin dances! And just from a brief documentary on burlesque in this country (US), I dare say they were bumping and grinding quite a while before the bellydance craze set in.

(That's kind of funny to think about -- maybe we stole THEIR moves!)


You also wrote:
"What if you discovered that a stripper went to a bachelor party in belly dance attire, used your moves, then took her costume off as part of the entertainment? Would that create any discomfort at all for you? "

If it's a question of one of my students using my choreography without my permission, then that's another issue. But movement in itself can't be owned, by any person or any culture.


Actually, this is a really interesting topic because I've been approached by a place to teach a "Belly Dance for Romance" class (it was supposed to happen in time for Valentine's Day, but I didn't have my life in order at that time.) The place in question is an "adult exotic store" and carries lingerie plus "adult entertainment" in the form of books, magazines, and DVDs. (No live shows.)

So what would you all do -- would you teach there, given that it's an obviously ADULT venue?

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Actually, this is a really interesting topic because I've been approached by a place to teach a "Belly Dance for Romance" class (it was supposed to happen in time for Valentine's Day, but I didn't have my life in order at that time.) The place in question is an "adult exotic store" and carries lingerie plus "adult entertainment" in the form of books, magazines, and DVDs. (No live shows.)

So what would you all do -- would you teach there, given that it's an obviously ADULT venue?

I wouldn't do it because this goes right up the ally of what we are trying to get people to understand we are not. Whast they are looking for is something erotic, althought in this case its being geared towards couples in the bedroom, rather than a room full of guys.

 

[teela]

Shortly after I started learning bellydance we got at least one student in the class who worked at a gentleman's club. She made it clear she was not there to learn moves just to add to her repetoire for dancing at the club. She was there to learn to bellydance. She also stated that she would be doing some bellydancing at the club but would not do it on stage, only on the floor as if it were a restaurant, she planned to stay clothed and not let it become in anyway "stripperish". I heard she did a really nice job of the dancing. I think if someone who is a stripper does come to your class, let them learn and they might fall in love with the dance form as many of us have.

 

[Hanifa]

Studio Rules and Exotic Performers as Students- HELP!

I came on here looking to ask about studio rules and having exotic performers (strippers, and even pornographic models) as students.

My question to this forum is two fold, I will start with this:

#1 Studio Rules?

I have a small home studio on the east coast. Only private lessons. I have NOT posted studio rules or have a student contract to sign (may be "my bad"). Do the teachers on this forum site do that? And if so, would you kindly advise me as to what is a proper expectation for any number of what I call "no-call/no-shows"?

Should a student be allowed one "no show--no call" (I mean if they call to explain after 24 to 48 hours after the lesson?) To be honest, barring any serious emergency, I am cancelling the class because of that, as one of my rules. I have a student waiting list, where I can get paid for my time.

If my policy is too harsh - what are some advised rules for "no-call no-show" and asking for payment for missed lessons? How many missed appointments -whether you get 24 hours notice or not -- are acceptable before you tell the student to "join another class" ;-)

#2 Exotic/Pornographic models as students?

One student I had recently was a "fetish model" for men's porno magazines. She told me this in the first five minutes. I am an open-minded person, and a kind person, and she was very young and I thought maybe this would help her in a new direction (I know, naive). I don't want to judge. She missed her third lesson and did not contact me for 48 hours - I told her by voice mail she needed to pay for the missed lesson and that maybe she should find another class. When she finally contacted me she said since she was "beat up" at a session (good lord) that I have no understanding or caring as a teacher. I said, well now that you told me this -- because I, of course, had no foreknowledge, I am concerned about your welfare - and of course I will give you your lesson money back, and you are welcome to come back to class. She said that I conduct "bizarre business practices" and many other choice words. Should I wait until I hear from these people, no matter how long, before demanding payment and cancelling class? I hold these spots for them, where other students coudl be paying me!

You see that this person could have been a danger, even to me, because of the element she could have brought around me and my students, that's another aspect.

Another student, who was a stripper, stole four videos out of my house. I finally got three back from her (dropping them off in my mailbox, without admitting she stole them). I have no other problems accept with people in this industry.

So - you can't tell a person, obviously, "I won't give you lessons because of your lifestyle!"...These are very dramatic examples, I'm sure.

I have other little college students, with parents who are excited they are belly dancing for fun, who might meet these gals at an event, and they might feel it's inappropriate for me to have them as students and I will lose them. I have only private students. So back to this - how to apply this all to Studio Rules and Student Intake? I appreciate any and all advice.

Signed,

Desperate Hanifa

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

[Actually, this is a really interesting topic because I've been approached by a place to teach a "Belly Dance for Romance" class (it was supposed to happen in time for Valentine's Day, but I didn't have my life in order at that time.) The place in question is an "adult exotic store" and carries lingerie plus "adult entertainment" in the form of books, magazines, and DVDs. (No live shows.)

So what would you all do -- would you teach there, given that it's an obviously ADULT venue?[/QUOTE]
No I wouldn't teach at such an event for the same reason I wouldn't perform at a bachelor party. As Tarik mentioned that's not an image I want to portray to the public.
Yasmine

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

For what it's worth, I'm not PLANNING on teaching at the porn store, but I wondered what other people thought.

(I did kick around the idea for a while, until I went into the place and saw the penis wall -- shelves from floor to ceiling containing multi-colored body-part-shaped "adult novelties." I thought it would be a little distracting ...)

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I have a small home studio on the east coast. Only private lessons. I have NOT posted studio rules or have a student contract to sign (may be "my bad").

Yep, bad. Have a contract. Have it ALL in writing. People are used to it nowadays. I had to sign pages of documents just to go skiing. It's crazy, but it's modern America.

(You also couldn't pay me enough to teach out of my home. Although I have a small "studio" in my house, my homeowners insurance was going to skyrocket if I taught dance or exercises there, and I really don't want people THAT into my personal business. But that's just me.)

Should a student be allowed one "no show--no call" (I mean if they call to explain after 24 to 48 hours after the lesson?) To be honest, barring any serious emergency, I am cancelling the class because of that, as one of my rules. I have a student waiting list, where I can get paid for my time.

We don't teach privates, so I don't have any applicable info, but I TAKE privates from a lady in Louisville (two hours from me) and if I cancel on the day of our privates, I still pay her. I'd feel guilty otherwise.

A friend of mine makes her living by teaching clarinet and saxophone lessons from her home. She says 24 hours notice is required or you still have to pay for the time slot.

How many missed appointments -whether you get 24 hours notice or not -- are acceptable before you tell the student to "join another class" ;-) .

Um, I have no tolerance for that, so I would think one missed appointment might be forgiveable, especially if they call in advance. But two, or missing appointments and not calling for 2 days or so? I'd let this one go. She's obviously not in a position to take her private lessons seriously.

She missed her third lesson and did not contact me for 48 hours - I told her by voice mail she needed to pay for the missed lesson and that maybe she should find another class. When she finally contacted me she said since she was "beat up" at a session (good lord) that I have no understanding or caring as a teacher. I said, well now that you told me this -- because I, of course, had no foreknowledge, I am concerned about your welfare - and of course I will give you your lesson money back, and you are welcome to come back to class. She said that I conduct "bizarre business practices" and many other choice words.

You showed tolerance and understanding. Maybe that is a bizarre business practice, but it's the right thing to do, as a human being.

But it seems like this one is not the best candidate for a private lesson. Some people you just CAN'T help.

Should I wait until I hear from these people, no matter how long, before demanding payment and cancelling class? I hold these spots for them, where other students coudl be paying me!

What does your doctor or dentist do for missed/cancelled appointments? What's his/her policy? You're a professional -- take a cue from professionals in other fields.

You see that this person could have been a danger, even to me, because of the element she could have brought around me and my students, that's another aspect.Another student, who was a stripper, stole four videos out of my house. I finally got three back from her (dropping them off in my mailbox, without admitting she stole them). I have no other problems accept with people in this industry.

Is screening potential students wrong? I think if I were going to give private lessons in my home, I would want to be able to meet the person who was going to be in my living room once a week. I don't know if that's weird or bad business, but sometimes you just get a bad "vibe" off of people, and it's best to listen to your inner voice on situations like that.

I seriously think your situation is different than most studios, BECAUSE you teach in your home, and BECAUSE it's a one-on-one relationship. The one-on-one thing creates a different dynamic between you and your student. You HAVE to be able to trust him/her.

I know a ballroom teacher here in town who screens his potential students. (I think he's afraid of a wacko accusing him of inappropriate behavior, and I can't say I blame him.)

So - you can't tell a person, obviously, "I won't give you lessons because of your lifestyle!".

Maybe not, but you CAN tell her "I don't think I'm the right teacher for you." My clarinet-teacher friend does that periodically -- when she sees that she's going to have trouble with the parents of a potential student.

I have other little college students, with parents who are excited they are belly dancing for fun, who might meet these gals at an event, and they might feel it's inappropriate for me to have them as students and I will lose them.

That's a tough one. I have no comments, but I'm curious as to what the others think.

 

[belly_dancer]

as far as strippers for students... I have had several "x" strippers reach "student performance" level, & they have always been (some of) my best dancers!!!.... AND NEVER SLEAZY....
in fact once when watching a bunch of students performing a while ago... another "student performer" was performing... shall we say in such a way that we hope NEVER happens in public (Kaya w/out the skill level!)....
(& I to be truthful... I was thinking... thank god that is not MY student!!!!)
and I overheard another student say to "stripper student" (nobody in class knew she used to be a stripper!) "wow... she dances like she wants to be a stripper".... & "stripper student" replied... "no... she dances like she WANTS to be a stripper" a REAL stripper would never dance like that outside of work"
which (so far) I have found to be true... so I wouldn't worry about your stripper students embarrassing or discrediting you!...after all, they are professional dancers! but some of the girls grinding it in the nightclubs...... they are more scary (one month of lessons, 3 cocktails.... LOOK... I'm a bellydancer!!!)
also, if your town is that conservative, who is going to admit they saw your student/ your moves in a strip joint... (what were THEY doing there:think: ?)