Is this how it ends?

Ariadne

Well-known member
I used to belong to many different BD forums. This is the only one left I know of where you can actually still have a conversation. While there may be new forums on other subjects going strong pretty much every forum I'm familiar with is dead or dying, everyone went to facebook. But you know what? Here I still feel like there is a community, even if it's tiny it's still here.
 

Roshanna

New member
I used to belong to many different BD forums. This is the only one left I know of where you can actually still have a conversation. While there may be new forums on other subjects going strong pretty much every forum I'm familiar with is dead or dying, everyone went to facebook. But you know what? Here I still feel like there is a community, even if it's tiny it's still here.

Yes - there can't be more than 20-30 or so of us on here regularly now, based on the posts I see... Out of a bellydance community with hundreds of thousands of people... But at least there still *are* posts here :)
 
I blame Facebook...

IRL I don't think it is getting any worse here just at the moment; people go to classes and I see new groups at haflas. Beginners classes still happen. I just hope that there is enough community activity to keep a few of the new beginners interested enough to join in.

This is what worries me too. Last week I was chatting with the guy who used to run the excellent UK belly dance directory - he gave up when most of the teachers moved on to Facebook and couldn't be bothered keeping their entries updated. The same thing happened to my Australian directory.

The thing is, on Facebook, dancers are only talking to each other and teachers are only talking to their students. It can feel like a nice cosy community but the thing is, IT'S A CLOSED COMMUNITY. Some bd teachers even have their pages and groups marked private. It makes m wonder, where is the public profile of belly dance to attract the next generation of belly dancers?
 

Aniseteph

New member
Getting all insular with your students and running in small closed groups is just dumb, IMHO. A lively local community where interested students can go to workshops and haflas and get involved in a slightly bigger pond is only going to be good for recruitment and retention in the long run, so why not support it and network openly so it's easy for people to find? And just maybe there are people out there who don't <3 FB and would prefer you to have a website with some current info on where you are teaching, any events etc etc. Or has someone done the analysis and found that FB is the only way to go nowadays? (Where's that puking smiley...?)

But you know what? Here I still feel like there is a community, even if it's tiny it's still here.
Me too. That's why I can't be bothered interacting with a random bunch of people I never heard of on FB. Although I suppose I could click through and find out all about them if I gave a hoot. Buuuuuut, I don't.
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
FB isn't designed for "group conversations" - it never has been. I won't bore everyone with my dislike of that site - everyone here knows how I feel already. Its my belief that if I want to be taken seriously as a dancer, I need a web domain and page of my own. That seems to NOT be the case with many nowadays - they use so-called "free services" to accomplish something vaguely similar.

I've been opposed to the "walled garden" model that FB and its antecedents promote since day one. As BellyDance Oz says, its a CLOSED community. Who can FIND you? I'm probably one of the best known male Belly Dancers in the world - certainly not for my less than stellar dance abilities - but rather for being "out there" and find-able!
 

Zumarrad

Active member
In what way are FB closed communities any more of a walled garden than subforums on Bhuz? You have to be a member to post and a lot of that stuff was NOT available to be read by any non-member.

I have to disagree strongly that FB encourages closed communication. FB is designed first and forward for networking. That's why it's always trying to hook you up with friends of friends and random people you don't know. Only in comparatively recent times have people started to create things like closed or private groups, and that is a REACTION to the way that FB tries to force "transparent" public interactions on every member. FB is not designed as a discussion site. It's a get-together site. Its origins as a college network, where students would want to know a) whether or not someone was single/available b) where the parties are c) how to meet more people, are still quite clear.

Bhuz, this site and other message boards have long been all about talking to random strangers. The use of pseudonymous screen names is absolutely key to making that OK. On FB it is quite hard to hide who you are. If you comment on a news story, or an open-viewing bellydance group, that's public. With your name, your workplace, your location attached to it, unless you take great pains to hide the latter two. A LOT of users don't seem to understand just how public it is, because I think FB attracted a lot of people who were not previously users of the internet for discussion, networking etc.

As for FB pages, they have massive limitations. They used to come up high in Google searches but not so much any more; if someone follows your page the chances of them seeing your posts are lower and lower unless you pay to "boost". I like my FB page for updates, but overall most people who are actually performing would still have a site of some kind, at least they do where I come from. That's if they don't just do everything in person, which does still happen in the world. Everybody who has a FB fanpage knows about the limitations now. Anybody who still relies on FB only as a web presence is a bit foolish.
 

BigJim

Member
It's early morning and by the stats record at the bottom of the page I'm the only member on the site...but there are also 80 guests visiting. I hope they are not all playing word games.... My thoughts are that the site is being used for reference because of the huge amount of info available... I still see visitors daily to something I posted a couple of years ago. Members should just make an effort to post something somewhere to show your still alive.
 
Getting all insular with your students and running in small closed groups is just dumb, IMHO. A lively local community where interested students can go to workshops and haflas and get involved in a slightly bigger pond is only going to be good for recruitment and retention in the long run... And just maybe there are people out there who don't <3 FB and would prefer you to have a website with some current info on where you are teaching, any events etc etc.

Spot on! I have had teachers say they dropped their website because they said they "never got any enquiries through it". What they're not thinking is - how many people who phoned them, phoned because they were impressed by their website? Did they ever ask? No.
 
As for FB pages, they have massive limitations. They used to come up high in Google searches but not so much any more; if someone follows your page the chances of them seeing your posts are lower and lower unless you pay to "boost". .

This is part of what I mean by "closed communities". I see belly dance schools with lively communities, but new students are never going to find them because they can't find them in Google search.
 

Darshiva

Moderator
I'm one of those teachers who is letting their website go to pasture. Over the last 3 years I've had exactly four enquiries from it and exactly one potential client. Since that was recent I'm thinking about maybe changing my mind about the website thing, but if I do I won't be using the same website. I chose poorly with the domain name, my website looks outdated and my photos look unprofessional. I'm having much greater success from facebook, but there I think I go about things differently to other teachers.

While I was in Nhill I learned the value of word-of-mouth. Facebook takes that style of advertising and dials it up to 11. All of my flyer/ad-based advertising has been expensive in terms of bums on seats.

I think where people may fail with using social networking is that they aren't thinking in terms of word-of-mouth, which only works if someone knows & loves your product.

Anyway, I've had much greater success in using facebook as a marketing tool than I have with my website or printed advertising.
 

Daimona

Moderator
This isn't the end unless Salome calls it to be the end, it is just different.
The activity of this thread shows that the forum is alive, we just don't have as vigorous discussions at the moment so we're maybe a bit sleepy.


I used to go to weekend workshops with big names in Stockholm once a year, but when the organizers started to announce their events more or less on facebook only I dropped out. I even asked them to put me on their mailing list whenever they got a new big name event up and coming (and I usually avoid being on various mailing lists), but I never heard anything since the last event I attended a couple of years ago.


From the viewpoint of running PR for a business/organization I admit that it is much easier to just advertise in one field than following up on different fields. The downside is that not everyone is available on all channels and you risk loosing potential customers/members. Once upon a time, when I was a newbie bdancer, the main channel were announcing classes and events at local newspapers and magazines and maybe posters/flyers at the local grocery stores and bars etc. Advertisements in the newpapers were expensive and running haflas at a low cost budget, my the local club couldn't afford paying that price the first years, but we were great at putting up our home made posters. We grew quite well in those days. The past couple of years, there have been more advertising on fb than on the webpage, but they've kept on using the mail list (members only) and had a few posters and flyers at the dance studios. To get on with the dancers, flyers and posters and the word of the jungle are the most important channels. New audience have no chance of finding these and the name of the club doesn't make it obvious for a non-dancer to understand what this is about and their only chance is either to read the advertisement in the newspaper or get it on our webpage.


I'm currently in the PR group of a local music group, and we advertise both on our own web page (in average a new post every month, as our web page is run as a blog), on facebook (at least once a week, one of them is usually including a link to a web page post) and instagram (whenever we're out doing stuff), in the newspaper as well as having flyers and posters as well as in various free listing. And one very important aspect - every activity is coordinated. Yes, we do use a lot of resources on advertising, but it is worth it. When we performed at a national television show about a year ago, it became very obvious why we still needed to have an active web site in addition to the facebook page. Yes, we did get a few more followers on fb, but hits on our web page had a peak at least 25x above normal.


The web page doesn't need to be large or complicated, but at least contain some vital information such as how to get in contact, who, where and when. Link to fb events if necessary.

(Sorry this post got a bit longer than normal)
 
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Shanazel

Moderator
I'm probably one of the best known male Belly Dancers in the world...

No kidding. I have student who would be honored to the point of hyperventilation should you allow him to touch the hem of your practice skirt. Heck, I gained street cred with him just for mentioning I "know" you online. :dance:
 
I'm one of those teachers who is letting their website go to pasture. Over the last 3 years I've had exactly four enquiries from it and exactly one potential client. ...
While I was in Nhill I learned the value of word-of-mouth. Facebook takes that style of advertising and dials it up to 11..

What you say about the website is a good illustration of what I mean. You say your website has gained you only one new enquiry. How do you know none of your other new students looked at your website? Did you ask them?

For most small local businesses, the purpose of their website is never so that new customers can find them - it's so that new customers, having found them, can research them and gain confidence before booking.

Personally, if I'm looking for a teacher or a therapist or a podiatrist or any other service and I find a Facebook page or a directory entry, the first thing I do is click the link to their website. If they don't have a website at all, I immediately start to wonder if they're genuine - I mean, what proper business just has a Facebook page?

Having looked at their website and read about their qualifications, testimonials etc, I will ring up and enrol/make an appointment. When I phone up, I won't say I looked at their website, but the fact is that it was a major factor in my decision to ring up.

I would suggest keeping your domain name, badly chosen or not. There will be links to it all over the internet and you don't want to lose those. Create your new website on Wordpress.com (it's free) and permanently forward your old domain name to it.

Once you've got your new website built - separate pages for each of your offerings plus an About Me page, a Privacy page and a Contact Me page - there's no need to run a blog or keep tweaking it, just set and forget apart from updating class or workshop dates.
 
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Once upon a time, when I was a newbie bdancer, the main channel were announcing classes and events at local newspapers and magazines and maybe posters/flyers at the local grocery stores and bars etc. Advertisements in the newpapers were expensive ...but we were great at putting up our home made posters. We grew quite well in those days. The past couple of years, there have been more advertising on fb than on the webpage, but they've kept on using the mail list (members only) and had a few posters and flyers at the dance studios. To get on with the dancers, flyers and posters and the word of the jungle are the most important channels. New audience have no chance of finding these.

Exactly.
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
No kidding. I have student who would be honored to the point of hyperventilation should you allow him to touch the hem of your practice skirt. Heck, I gained street cred with him just for mentioning I "know" you online. :dance:
Oh please - I'm just a mediocre dancer with a big mouth and a website! Nothing more. Really.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
Personally, if I'm looking for a teacher or a therapist or a podiatrist or any other service and I find a Facebook page or a directory entry, the first thing I do is click the link to their website. If they don't have a website at all, I immediately start to wonder if they're genuine - I mean, what proper business just has a Facebook page?

Ditto. On the other hand the best ones have all their various sites cross linked so you can check all of them as well as references. At a minimum they need a professional webpage. Facebook by itself or, and I've started seeing this lately, all the social media sites but no webpage doesn't hack it for me.
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
Exactly. And the 2nd deadly sin is to setup a webpage - and then ignore emails etc from it. I see this from Fortune 500 companies ALL THE TIME!
 
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