Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 23
  1. #11
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Rocky Mountains USA
    Posts
    15,161
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Amateur and professional historian of the world: unite! You have nothing to lose but your minds.
    "Well, now that we have seen each other," said the unicorn " if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."

  2. #12
    Moderator Daimona's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    3,653
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shanazel View Post
    That there exist westernized fantasies about middle eastern dance is undeniable but to dismiss all western observations of middle eastern dance/music/culture out of hand would be a mistake. The image of the criminally stupid European/American blundering through the middle east is as overblown as orientalist fantasies of belly dance as sheik seduction. A little bit more balanced view of all sides might be very productive.
    Yes. I'm not dismissing all observations done by westerners though history.
    Rereading what I wrote previously, what I wrote didn't turn out they way I intended as I had left out some important details and I'm sorry about that.

    I'm actually simply and open-mindedly trying to get a view of older sources and how the dance is described in older sources working after the principle of "What do we know and what may we interprete from these facts" while putting aside what I think I know about the history. It is a time consuming exercise and I don't expect to get to a conclusion immediately, but I've used this method successfully in other fields and sometimes I've even had to rethink everything I thought I knew about the subject.


    The first task in this exercise is to get an overview of what descriptions there is.
    How have any danceforms in the Middle East been described through the centuries?

    Then, it is time to ask:
    Are there anything in these descriptions that resembles the dance styles we see in this region today?
    --
    Daim.

  3. #13
    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,945
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shanazel View Post
    That there exist westernized fantasies about middle eastern dance is undeniable but to dismiss all western observations of middle eastern dance/music/culture out of hand would be a mistake. The image of the criminally stupid European/American blundering through the middle east is as overblown as orientalist fantasies of belly dance as sheik seduction. A little bit more balanced view of all sides might be very productive.
    Except male westerners would often not be able to see the dance of "normal" women. So we get either the dances of teh public women (Bee Dance anyone?) - or they made it up.

  4. #14
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Rocky Mountains USA
    Posts
    15,161
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    That's true though I think misinterpretation might be more of a problem than telling out and out lies. But should we consider the dances of "public women" to be any less significant than those of "normal women"?
    "Well, now that we have seen each other," said the unicorn " if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."

  5. #15
    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,945
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shanazel View Post
    That's true though I think misinterpretation might be more of a problem than telling out and out lies. But should we consider the dances of "public women" to be any less significant than those of "normal women"?
    Only if it is seen as representative of all women (in some cases it might be - but think of some styles of western dance done by "less" respectable women - pole dancing as representative of American dance?)

  6. #16
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Rocky Mountains USA
    Posts
    15,161
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Agreed, though there was less difference between public dance and private dance in the early and middle 20th century middle east (think Golden Age Dancers who were not exactly considered top notch society ladies but still quite circumspect) than there is between pole dance and square dancing, for example.

    Pole dance is something of an international phenomenon rather than American, though. Now I'm wondering what equivalents would be. Kashmir, if I'm up all night contemplating this, I am calling you long distance in the middle of the NZ night.
    "Well, now that we have seen each other," said the unicorn " if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."

  7. #17
    V.I.P. Ariadne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    NE Mojave Desert
    Posts
    2,180
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think a more likely comparison would be social vs exhibition dancing in Latin dance. The difference can be vast but the moves are all from the same base because the music is the same. As far as I know there was little difference between music in court vs home back then outside of possible increased complexity, more parts? What is it we say? Movement follows music?

  8. #18
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Rocky Mountains USA
    Posts
    15,161
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Speaking of dance history, one of my embroidery design students just sent me a book called "Grandmother's Secrets: The Ancient Rituals and Healing Power of Belly Dance" by Rosina-Faawzia Al-Rawi. Said she saw it at a book sale and thought I should have it. Such a sweetie and what good timing, hmm? Has anyone read it?
    "Well, now that we have seen each other," said the unicorn " if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."

  9. #19
    Member Roshanna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    483
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    You just put into words something that has been niggling me for years. I love history and when I am studying it I try very hard to understand and interpret it from the cultural POV of the time. It makes it very hard to explain my thoughts on what I've learned at times though since trying to explain it in a way that people can understand NOW ... well, yeah.

    It's like the discussion we had on here several years ago where some people were venting about the tendency to think of Egypt as not being part of Africa. They were basically branding anyone who thought that way as an idiot. I tried, and failed I think, to point out that according to what I have read historically from that area of the world people didn't used to think in terms of continents like we do now. It used to be that anything bordering the Mediterranean was considered one area (including lower Egypt) and when they talked of Africa it could just as easily be referring only to that area below that depending on the context. It's not that they were stupid it's that the context has changed and sometimes these old ideas stick around even when the reason for them hasn't.

    History, I love you but you frustrate me!
    Interestingly, my partner is an ancient historian who wrote his doctoral thesis on the Roman Mediterranean (and specifically the Roman imperial fleets, including in Egypt), and actually what you say about the Mediterranean being one interconnected region seems to be a very mainstream view amongst professional historians, at least in the context of the ancient world. There are quite a number of books on the subject, e.g. 'The Great Sea: A Human History of the Mediterranean' by David Abulafia (which I have not actually read yet, despite there being two copies of it in our house...) or "The Making of the Middle Sea: A History of the Mediterranean from the Beginning to the Emergence of the Classical World" by Cyprian Broodbank (which I also have not read, but it's on my list of possible birthday presents for my partner ).
    Last edited by Roshanna; 08-30-2016 at 12:05 PM.

  10. #20
    Member Roshanna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    483
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shanazel View Post
    Speaking of dance history, one of my embroidery design students just sent me a book called "Grandmother's Secrets: The Ancient Rituals and Healing Power of Belly Dance" by Rosina-Faawzia Al-Rawi. Said she saw it at a book sale and thought I should have it. Such a sweetie and what good timing, hmm? Has anyone read it?
    Yes. The autobiographical bits are interesting, but the historical bits are questionable at best.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •