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  1. #31
    Moderator Daimona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prusilusken View Post
    Rammstein, Flogging Molly, Squirrel Nut Zippers, Kaizer's Orchestra, Balkan Beat Box, Rob Zombie, Björk, Portishead, Tricky, Rimsky Korsakov, Prodigy (I've stumpled upon an AWESOME bastard mix - Smack My Bitch Up vs. Enya's Orinoco Flow! Anyone know that one? ) Safri Duo, Medieval music, Dust/Chemical Brothers, Tori Amos, Clawfinger...
    Absolutely! Some more great music for exercising (not performing):


    Oh.. And have you tried yourself or seen anybody dancing to "Akta" by Eric Serra from the movie "The Fifth Element"?
    Last edited by Daimona; 12-11-2009 at 11:26 AM. Reason: addition
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by AidaBellydance View Post
    Mine too... Some times I try not to, but then dancing gets boring and I feel Im just tripping from side to side - doing "nothing".. Dosnt FEEEEEEEL like dancing at all.. So after a few songs I usually cant help my self and give "the shit" about what people are thinking for then to just dance the way I feel to capture the music...
    Aïda
    Such is the influence of the Dance. there seems to be so much concern from what appears to be the majority of western folks about not dancing in public to anything that is not strictly belly dance music, for fear of misrepresentation of the dance, Does this make those performers sinners? Are they doing something shameful and wrong, or just expressing themselves in a dance form they gravitate to and love. I kind of cringe when I see people on here apologising for doing just that.

    Are those who are opposed and vehemently vocal on the forums, prepared to be similarly vocal when it comes to face to face confrontation with a perceived transgressor? Well, I live in hope to see this happen and would respect them more for upholding their convictions in such a situation.

    It's easy to make a noise about it, when you're not face to face with someone who's just had the temerity, in your eyes, to perform a ME dance to non ME music. If they attend public performance venues where this happens, will they speak up about how silly those performers look and how disgusting they are to even dare to sully the dance with such nonsense? I doubt it. They'll sit and zip it, or ruffle their sanctimonious feathers, then get on the forums where it's safe.

    Now, I'm not knocking anyone wishing to stick to authentic dance... I do it myself. But is there any need look down our noses if someone wishes to dance to something that doesn't fit the mould... any need to make them feel bad about themselves? I agree that certain dance 'styles' are not good to watch and damage the reputation of not only this dance, but other dances, but that's because they are either inept or sexually lewd and suggestive.

    Authentic Middle Eastern Dance will always be there, rocks beneath our dance feet. Just because someone wants to push out the boat and do something different that does not slot into the 'norm' doesn't make them silly or necessarily ignorant. There are degrees of misrepresenting this dance, and I have to say also that I've witnessed many a performer dance to 'authentic' music replete with Eman and all the gestures and absolutely slaughter the dance and it's reputation for being an art form. And I've seen those who dance to non ME music who can render it breathtaking.

    I don't think we have the right to condemn folks for wanting to perform to any kind of music using belly dance moves. If I want to perform to unMED music and use bellydance as my vehicle, I will. It's a free country. And if the Bellydance Police want to sit and moo with disdain, I care not a jot, quite frankly.
    Last edited by Kharis; 12-10-2009 at 12:45 PM.

  3. #33
    V.I.P. Caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharis View Post
    Such is the influence of the Dance. there seems to be so much concern from what appears to be the majority of western folks about not dancing in public to anything that is not strictly belly dance music, for fear of misrepresentation of the dance, Does this make those performers sinners?
    I think from this comment you totally misunderstand what many people on this forum are saying. Nobody is saying dont dance to what you want in any way you want. Just dont make out it is a dance from the ME as this is wholly inaccurate? yes or no?

    Are those who are opposed and vehemently vocal on the forums, prepared to be similarly vocal when it comes to face to face confrontation with a perceived transgressor?
    Saying what you believe or think in a forum which is purely created for that purpose is totally different from giving your opinion to a performer who did not ask for it.

    Well, I live in hope to see this happen and would respect them more for upholding their convictions in such a situation.
    Would that be not more aggressive and confrontational? People can choose to ignore other peoples thoughts comments and beliefs on a forum, but you cannot ignore someone who comes up to you and off loads what they think.
    The two are not even connected.

    It's easy to make a noise about it, when you're not face to face with someone who's just had the temerity, in your eyes, to perform a ME dance to non ME music.
    For some maybe. If someone askes me my personal thoughts on the issue then I have no problem telling them what i think. If this is what they ask for then what is the problem? why is the issue? I cant see anyone attacking people.

    If they attend public performance venues where this happens, will they speak up about how silly those performers look and how disgusting they are to even dare to sully the dance with such nonsense? I doubt it
    Do you? is this something you would do?
    I wouldnt unless I was asked to and this does not mean it has to be mean spirited either.

    They'll sit and zip it, or ruffle their sanctimonious feathers, then get on the forums where it's safe.
    ha ha.. forums are safe?.. oh yes..not.
    It takes alot for people to express themselves, especially on forums.


    Now, I'm not knocking anyone wishing to stick to authentic dance... I do it myself. But is there any need look down our noses if someone wishes to dance to something that doesn't fit the mould... any need to make them feel bad about themselves?
    Perhaps that is a perception rather than a reality?

    I agree that certain dance 'styles' are not good to watch and damage the reputation of not only this dance, but other dances, but that's because they are either inept or sexually lewd and suggestive.
    Everyone has their likes, dislikes and beliefs, and like you say you have yours. Some dont mind discussing it on a 'discussion forum', others prefer to do it behind peoples backs. Either way, they have opinions.


    I don't think we have the right to condemn folks for wanting to perform to any kind of music using belly dance moves. If I want to perform to unMED music and use bellydance as my vehicle, I will. It's a free country. And if the Bellydance Police want to sit and moo with disdain, I care not a jot, quite frankly.
    I totally agree... as long as they dont try and kid the world it is ME dance when it really is not.

    I really dont see why people get so hot under the collar about people wanting people to be clear about what they are doing. Too many people make it up for their own self gratification and then sell it to others with false labelling.
    Is that OK? I think not. But I dont mind saying what i think, if people have a problem with other peoples thoughts then it really is their problem and they need to own it.

    I really think sometimes people forget this is a discussion forum and this is what it is about.
    Last edited by Caroline_afifi; 12-10-2009 at 03:50 PM. Reason: typos as usual

  4. #34
    V.I.P. lizaj's Avatar
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    My main reservations for dancing to music not "designed" for ME dance ie Western music that does not use the rthymns nor the instruments is that it is harder to dance well. Of course there are dancers skilled enough,experienced enough or intuitive enough to do a good job of belly dancing successfully to almost anything you can think of The problem is when newbies or those not so confident believe that is easier to dance to a piece of non-ME music that they are fond of. My first piece of advice to students who wish to ebark on performing is to stick to ME/Turkish music but that can be classical or pop simply because it gets the best from you but that the most important thing is to really like the piece of music! If you have a piece you truly love and wish to interpret it with this dance , once you have the vocabulary , why not. I always wanted to dance to "Africa" by Toto and maybe one day but I consider it a real challenge.
    As to critique of those stretching the rule book, no not unless they elicit your opinion and even then that depends on your relationship. A very close dance friend is great "follower of fusion-fashion"...she knows I am not...we still rub along on dance platforms. She no doubt thinks me unadventerous, I think her routines are often out of place. There are platform opportunities when we can exist side by side, there are others when we do not.
    If I don't know someone so well, I will find something positive to say about any routine..I think any performer deserves that in the sort of events I attend and hey I should be flattered to asked. They are not professional dancers holding themselves up as experts and therefore deserve leeway.
    Honest does not have to be harsh, it can be couched in kindness and bearing in mind you have to respect that others may believe they are operating with integrity just as you do.



    Knowing there's so many young thangs out there and the track is now nearly 27 years old..thought I'd let you hear my sinful temptaion

    Dear me that video looks dated but I still love the song.
    Last edited by lizaj; 12-10-2009 at 06:40 PM.

  5. #35
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    I think from this comment you totally misunderstand what many people on this forum are saying. Nobody is saying dont dance to what you want in any way you want. Just dont make out it is a dance from the ME as this is wholly inaccurate? yes or no?

    It may look that way. But I see enough folks on here picking on a single individual and tearing them apart as an example of how the dance should not be done. I'm all for constructive criticism but often it just looks down right bitchy and we must remember this is a public forum not our living rooms. If someone does bellydance moves to a piece of music, it's bellydance moves...period. The dreaded bellydance term covers a very wide gamut of styles and expressions. But it's still basically bellydance. If a top Egyptian dancer decided to dance to something not ME, would that be ok, just because they are Egyptian? What the hell is 'accurate' in the scheme of things. It's all about perspectives and what is the current fashion at lot of the time. I don't see anything 'accurate' about Dina's bin bag costume held together with safety pins or Fifi Abdou's running splits. If someone performed dressed like that and did the splits, would it be accurate just because they did it to Aziza?

    Saying what you believe or think in a forum which is purely created for that purpose is totally different from giving your opinion to a performer who did not ask for it.

    There has been more than one unlucky individual torn apart on here who didn't ask for it. One recently, in fact, her name eludes me right now. Some of them merely newbies who inadvertantly stumbled into murky waters and paid the price. A forum should be for support, and advice, and learning...not a place to pull others apart. I agree that we do voice our opinions and beliefs quite vehemently and passionately on here at times...as we are doing now But I also feel that there's a thin line at times, between advice and guidance, and passive bullying.



    Would that be not more aggressive and confrontational? People can choose to ignore other peoples thoughts comments and beliefs on a forum, but you cannot ignore someone who comes up to you and off loads what they think.
    The two are not even connected.

    Do you really believe this? Do you really think that if someone saw cruel comments on here they would just say, hey ho. I think they are connected. Let's face it, it's a lot harder to look into someone's eyes and tell them that they cannot dance or that they are making an ass of themselves and please to stop. Perhaps it may do more good in a magazine such as Mosaic or NADA where it may have more impact. But of course, in a magazine, one cannot name names, can one?

    If someone askes me my personal thoughts on the issue then I have no problem telling them what i think. If this is what they ask for then what is the problem? why is the issue? I cant see anyone attacking people.

    I don't doubt you do. But the issue here is that on this forum, those who get criticised rarely ask for it.



    If they attend public performance venues where this happens, will they speak up about how silly those performers look and how disgusting they are to even dare to sully the dance with such nonsense? I doubt it

    Do you? is this something you would do?
    I wouldnt unless I was asked to and this does not mean it has to be mean spirited either.

    I'm not the one saying someone would look an ass belly dancing to the Prodigy. There has always been lots of talk about how bellydance embraces, sisterhood/brotherhood, a dance for all... and yet, now there seems to be an increasing trend for snobbishness and elitism, with an increasing dearth of tolerance.


    ha ha.. forums are safe?.. oh yes..not.
    It takes alot for people to express themselves, especially on forums.

    But we still don't have to see the hurt on someone's face, do we, when a cutting, sarcastic or heartless remark hits home. It's a bit like dropping bombs on a faceless community... so long as we cannot identify with the human feelings behind the avatar...


    Now, I'm not knocking anyone wishing to stick to authentic dance... I do it myself. But is there any need look down our noses if someone wishes to dance to something that doesn't fit the mould... any need to make them feel bad about themselves?

    Perhaps that is a perception rather than a reality?

    There's been too many who've left this board through being attacked for this to be a perception.


    Everyone has their likes, dislikes and beliefs, and like you say you have yours. Some dont mind discussing it on a 'discussion forum', others prefer to do it behind peoples backs. Either way, they have opinions.

    The onus here is on the word, 'public'. This board is a public place...as public as your local haflah.


    I really dont see why people get so hot under the collar about people wanting people to be clear about what they are doing. Too many people make it up for their own self gratification and then sell it to others with false labelling.
    Is that OK? I think not. But I dont mind saying what i think, if people have a problem with other peoples thoughts then it really is their problem and they need to own it.

    I really think sometimes people forget this is a discussion forum and this is what it is about.

    If you don't like a thing, you don't buy it or buy into it. Simple as that. You turn away...ignore it... block it out of your life. As I've said, it's all about perspective. You simply cannot pigeonhole this dance, it's too diverse, and too organic. Discussion is great, and this is a great place for it. But it has to be tempered at times with a sense of propriety and caring. We must not lose sight of the fact that there are tender young buds in our midst, not just us tough fibrous old birds who've been dancing since the year dot. And a hard frost could kill those buds before they've even begun to blossom.

    I'm all for education in this dance, but it has to run along side some flexibility and tolerance.
    Last edited by Kharis; 12-11-2009 at 08:28 AM. Reason: typos

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizaj View Post
    My main reservations for dancing to music not "designed" for ME dance ie Western music that does not use the rthymns nor the instruments is that it is harder to dance well. Of course there are dancers skilled enough,experienced enough or intuitive enough to do a good job of belly dancing successfully to almost anything you can think of The problem is when newbies or those not so confident believe that is easier to dance to a piece of non-ME music that they are fond of.
    I feel that so long as the foundations of the dance are adhered to in training with a good teacher, then self expression to non ME music is fine and often rewarding and challenging. It can promote creativity. There will always been good adaptable dancers, who breeze through non ME music, and those who struggle. But you usually find that those who struggle, struggle in other areas too. As I've stated I don't find it objectionable to watch a dancer belly dance to any kind of music...so long as it's competent. And if it isn't...does that really matter in the scheme of things? Everybody should have the right to experience performing...be it good, bad, or to whatever music they choose to express themselves to.


    Quote Originally Posted by lizaj View Post
    If you have a piece you truly love and wish to interpret it with this dance , once you have the vocabulary , why not.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by lizaj View Post
    think any performer deserves that in the sort of events I attend and hey I should be flattered to asked. They are not professional dancers holding themselves up as experts and therefore deserve leeway.
    Honest does not have to be harsh, it can be couched in kindness and bearing in mind you have to respect that others may believe they are operating with integrity just as you do.
    Ditto.
    Last edited by Kharis; 12-11-2009 at 08:40 AM. Reason: typo

  7. #37
    V.I.P. Caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharis View Post
    I
    It may look that way. But I see enough folks on here picking on a single individual and tearing them apart as an example of how the dance should not be done.

    Then perhaps it is better to discuss your concerns with the moderators or the person you feel is being attacked as general posts about this can be very confusing when you dont know what it is reffering to.

    I'm all for constructive criticism but often it just looks down right bitchy and we must remember this is a public forum not our living rooms. If someone does bellydance moves to a piece of music, it's bellydance moves...period.
    Does 'period' mean end of discussion?

    The dreaded bellydance term covers a very wide gamut of styles and expressions. But it's still basically bellydance. If a top Egyptian dancer decided to dance to something not ME, would that be ok, just because they are Egyptian? What the hell is 'accurate' in the scheme of things. It's all about perspectives and what is the current fashion at lot of the time. I don't see anything 'accurate' about Dina's bin bag costume held together with safety pins or Fifi Abdou's running splits. If someone performed dressed like that and did the splits, would it be accurate just because they did it to Aziza?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharis View Post
    Some people may not agree with you. What is belly dance?

    There has been more than one unlucky individual torn apart on here who didn't ask for it. One recently, in fact, her name eludes me right now. Some of them merely newbies who inadvertantly stumbled into murky waters and paid the price. A forum should be for support, and advice, and learning...not a place to pull others apart. I agree that we do voice our opinions and beliefs quite vehemently and passionately on here at times...as we are doing now But I also feel that there's a thin line at times, between advice and guidance, and passive bullying.
    This is something which occasionally happens across forums and I think these concerns should be discussed with moderators.


    Do you really believe this? Do you really think that if someone saw cruel comments on here they would just say, hey ho. I think they are connected. Let's face it, it's a lot harder to look into someone's eyes and tell them that they cannot dance or that they are making an ass of themselves and please to stop. Perhaps it may do more good in a magazine such as Mosaic or NADA where it may have more impact. But of course, in a magazine, one cannot name names, can one?
    I think a magazine review is totally different from a discussion forum.
    I think they are all very different situations. If you are reffering to an incident on this forum, that incident should be dealt with rather than trying to change the culture of forums which have been in existence for years.
    Cruel comments are not acceptable and should be dealt with.


    I don't doubt you do. But the issue here is that on this forum, those who get criticised rarely ask for it.
    Just this forum? I think I you have been a member of Bhuz for many many years and have been involved in many discussions which involved this.
    This forum is no worse than any other place. It has got better and everyone admits this. To speak out generally like this makes everyone scared to speak and this is not something you are afraid to do and nor do you shy away from opinions. I think it is better to tackle the issue directly to be honest.


    I'm not the one saying someone would look an ass belly dancing to the Prodigy. There has always been lots of talk about how bellydance embraces, sisterhood/brotherhood, a dance for all... and yet, now there seems to be an increasing trend for snobbishness and elitism, with an increasing dearth of tolerance.
    Like I said, you misunderstand..
    Nothing wrong with bopping and warming up to what you want... performing publicly to the Prodigy's Fire Starter and telling people it's 'belly dance from the ME' would just make you look like an ass, and deservedly so.
    The Prodigy if fine for a warm up or as a novelty fusion dance. It is not ME music and should therefore not be labelled ME dance. That is my belief, and those are my opinions.


    But we still don't have to see the hurt on someone's face, do we, when a cutting, sarcastic or heartless remark hits home. It's a bit like dropping bombs on a faceless community... so long as we cannot identify with the human feelings behind the avatar...
    You are forgetting one thing. People choose to be here and they choose what they do. Talk to anyone in any field of arts or hobby and it is the same.
    People have different opinions and people do things which are not acceptable within that art form. If people to not want to respect ME culture, music and dance then they should perhaps choose an art closer to home. Ignorance is one thing but knowingly abusing something for personal gains is another.

    There's been too many who've left this board through being attacked for this to be a perception.
    How do you know? did they all contact you and tell you?
    I cant see too many ME people here any more either. That perhaps is another story but 'ganging' up works both ways. Non of it is right. Hundreds of people come and go all of the time for hundreds of reasons.

    Everyone has their likes, dislikes and beliefs, and like you say you have yours. Some dont mind discussing it on a 'discussion forum', others prefer to do it behind peoples backs. Either way, they have opinions.

    The onus here is on the word, 'public'. This board is a public place...as public as your local haflah.
    People must own what they say and do in forums and in life.


    If you don't like a thing, you don't buy it or buy into it. Simple as that. You turn away...ignore it... block it out of your life.


    Yes, and that works both ways. If people do not like discussion or take it personally to mean about them rather than an artform then should we be responsible for that?

    As I've said, it's all about perspective. You simply cannot pigeonhole this dance, it's too diverse, and too organic.
    This dance has a history and many off shoot, it is not some vague ever changing omeba that belongs to everyone. It has real cultural roots.
    Fusion and Tribal is another matter.

    Discussion is great, and this is a great place for it. But it has to be tempered at times with a sense of propriety and caring. We must not lose sight of the fact that there are tender young buds in our midst, not just us tough fibrous old birds who've been dancing since the year dot. And a hard frost could kill those buds before they've even begun to blossom.
    Yes. I dont think there is anything wrong in questioning and exploring either.
    There are plenty of times people get themselves into a state because someone said something which was not harmful or any of the things you have said here. People get irrate because somebody has a perspective different to theirs then it is dressed it up as something else like the defender of another faith.

    I'm all for education in this dance, but it has to run along side some flexibility and tolerance.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by Caroline_afifi; 12-11-2009 at 10:54 AM.

  8. #38
    V.I.P. lizaj's Avatar
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    I'd repeat that although it may do little harm to indulge ourselves and sin every so often BUT what is important is that people don't forget they are doing a dance that originates in the ME ( and I do recognise that the "outside" world has claimed and developed it) and that it's a good idea to get competant at belly dancing to music that complements your skill with the dance. That's why I would never encourage new and newish dancers to dance to Western music. It also needs to be established that belly dancing is moves+music. It's interpreting music. If the music is not from the ME then it is confusing for those not au fais (?) with the dance. Of course it does no harm for a dancer to get up every so often and interpret a piece of Western music using moves that are included in a BD vocabulary.
    As tribal dancer, I indulge myself by dancing to all sorts from European Medieval music to Ghawazee field recording to Helm. At the show we have just taken part in as part of the dance school recital, the little ballet dancers said:"We know you..you're the bellydancers" our answer "Yes we are but we are doing something a bit different tonight" No ME music, ATS moves..tribal girls..not billed as belly dancers even though we can..no problem..no sin as far as I am concerned.
    So at a hafla you sin, your fellow belly dancers will indulge you but I well remember a dance student choosing to dance to a C&W number..was it belly dance..it ceased to be and was a fun novelty item on a BD programme. And if you have freinds and family along to the platform , they are usually not too stupid to think the fusions and novelties ARE bellydancing. But you can always spell it out in other circumstances.Yes?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi View Post
    [B]
    Like I said, you misunderstand..
    Nothing wrong with bopping and warming up to what you want... performing publicly to the Prodigy's Fire Starter and telling people it's 'belly dance from the ME' would just make you look like an ass, and deservedly so.
    The Prodigy if fine for a warm up or as a novelty fusion dance. It is not ME music and should therefore not be labelled ME dance. That is my belief, and those are my opinions.

    .
    Belly dance moves make up the greater part of the dance. They are quite distinctive and easily recognisable. Ergo, if one belly dances to any music, be it ME or otherwise... it's still recognisable as belly dance. One does not have to trumpet exactitudes to qualify this fact.

    If you do ballet moves to the Prodigy, it's still ballet. One does not have to dance to classical music as is proved by many ballets being performed to contemporary music - they are still heralded and labelled as ballet.

    Nobody is challenging your right to your opinions. I'm merely being observational here. The thread that evaded me earlier was the Metamorphosis dance thread. Most of the earlier comments were constructive and helpful but then the You Tube footage went up and everybody let rip at her. Nasty.

    I don't have the inclination to go scurrying off to 'report' to moderators. It's their job to evaluate what is offensive or not..not mine. This is a board of free speech, and rightly so. But as I pointed out, there's a fine line between airing one's opinion and being snide or overbearing.

    Yes, I've been on these boards for many years, and I've done my fair share of mouthing off. But one thing I don't do, is post up someone's dance performance so that everyone can disembowel it in the worst possible way.

    This board has improved because certain negativity is no longer active on it.

  10. #40
    V.I.P. Caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    [
    QUOTE=lizaj;139232]I'd repeat that although it may do little harm to indulge ourselves and sin every so often BUT what is important is that people don't forget they are doing a dance that originates in the ME ( and I do recognise that the "outside" world has claimed and developed it) and that it's a good idea to get competant at belly dancing to music that complements your skill with the dance. That's why I would never encourage new and newish dancers to dance to Western music. It also needs to be established that belly dancing is moves+music. It's interpreting music. If the music is not from the ME then it is confusing for those not au fais (?) with the dance. Of course it does no harm for a dancer to get up every so often and interpret a piece of Western music using moves that are included in a BD vocabulary.
    As tribal dancer, I indulge myself by dancing to all sorts from European Medieval music to Ghawazee field recording to Helm.
    Yes. Fusion is fine.. although I do feel that fusion is way too top heavy in the UK right now. I choose not to do it myself (whilst enjoying others when it is good) because I dont want to add to an already haflah fusion overload.
    I can dance ME so that is what I should do.

    At the show we have just taken part in as part of the dance school recital, the little ballet dancers said:"We know you..you're the bellydancers" our answer "Yes we are but we are doing something a bit different tonight" No ME music, ATS moves..tribal girls..not billed as belly dancers even though we can..no problem..no sin as far as I am concerned.
    No sin whatsoever..


    So at a hafla you sin, your fellow belly dancers will indulge you but I well remember a dance student choosing to dance to a C&W number..was it belly dance..it ceased to be and was a fun novelty item on a BD programme. And if you have freinds and family along to the platform , they are usually not too stupid to think the fusions and novelties ARE bellydancing. But you can always spell it out in other circumstances.Yes?
    [/QUOTE]

    Lets just remove this word 'sin' and just call what we do Burlesque, fusion, Tribal; Egyptian, Debke, Lebanese etc.
    No flaming problem... I have said this til I have gone blue in the face on these forums..

    The fact that it dominates just about everything these days in another issue..

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