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  1. #81
    V.I.P. Tarik Sultan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amulya View Post
    True, and in regard to belly dance, I think it's utter nonsense when people call it 'dance for WOMEN of all ages, sizes bla bla', what about men? It's also a dance for men as well.

    Very interesting subject by the way. I was looking at some random video clips of male dancers and it occured to me that lots of male dancers do have a bit of a feminine way of dancing. But that's probably just my way of seeing it. I have to get used to that style because it annoys me, don't know why, maybe it's becuase I only saw life male belly dancers in Holland and they didn't have that at all. Now when I look at video clips of different dancers all over the world I notice they are very different from the Dutch ones.

    Hope I didn't offend anyone!
    No, your perceptions of what you are seeing are dead on, but there is a very real reason for that. If you say that a certain activity is only for women and the only guys who do it are gay, then what will happen is that most of the guys who get into it will infact be effeminate homosexuals. Most Heterosexual men, rather than defending themselves will stear clear of anything that would cause people to call them gay. An effeminate gay guy on the other hand, call him a fag and he's like..."yeah and what was your first clue'?

    Just like our sister dancers, not all male dancers get into the dance for a love and dedication to the art. For many gay men, especially those who are effeminate, the dance is seen as an opportunity to advertise their sexual preference. Its their form of protest, or attempt at gaining attention to declaire publicly in a way that leaves no room for guessing that they are here, theu are queer and they want us to get use to it..or just their way of saying to the hetero world &&&&k you! You don't like it? Well choke on it!
    That's not to say that all gay male dancers perform for this reason though. I know at least three male dancers wo are out gay men, who do not resort to the gay male stereotype on stagebecause their aim is artistic merit.

    Personally, I don't like to see effeminate dancers because it makes me uncomfortable, infact any type of behavior male or female, that is exhibitionistic and does not portray the dance in a dignified manner ralttles my cage. I guess I just need to learn to not let it phase me, but the gut reaction that it will somehow reflect on my or prejudice people's opinion of male dancers disturbes me.

  2. #82
    V.I.P. Tarik Sultan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan View Post
    Among primitive cultures (if I may be permitted to use the term) it is not unusual for men to perform dances which imitate the pangs and undulations of pregnant women who are having difficult births. This show of empathy for the pain endured by wives probably is what evolved into male belly dance.

    Don't laugh now but, decades ago it was alleged that certain women had what was called penis envy. Historically, there is no precedent for this myth. However, science has proven that certain men have had womb envy (this is not the same as Horney's pseudo scientific claim). Don't know too much on the subject anymore as I no longer read much on it. But suffice it to say that this show of empathy is the possible origin of male BD.
    This will probably open a can of worms, but this dance does not immitate child birth. There are two movements that might, but for the most part, most of the movements we use in this dance are also done in dances all over Africa and they are not gender specific. The shaking, twisting, jerking, rotating of the hips and undulations of the torso are done by men all over the African continents of which Egypt, Sudan, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia and Lybia are all a part.

    YouTube - Congo - Nostalgie Africa Dance Machine - Tchiko Tchikaya
    Last edited by Tarik Sultan; 05-31-2007 at 05:27 AM.

  3. #83
    V.I.P. Tarik Sultan's Avatar
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    Default Male dancers better than females

    As much as I am probably noted as being the biggest champion of male dancers, i do not agree that they are on average better than women. It very much depends on the individual. From my observation and experience, male dancers mirror our female counter parts in that most are average, a small percentage are exceptionally talented and there are a whole bunch that just....welll.....

    Anyway, gender and talent DO NOT go hand in hand.

  4. #84
    Member Recnadocir's Avatar
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    Well, I've even gotten weird attitude from male ballet dancers, when they found out I belly dance. Even gay male ballet dancers!

    Irrelevant but interesting fact- I was told when I first started ballet, by one of my teachers, that I would find that the most territorial male dancers, those who are the most possesive of the attentions of the females in the class or the company, are the gay, and not the straight men. By and large I've found that to be true. Don't know why, it seems rather like the "dog in the manger," but it's often true!

  5. #85
    V.I.P. Aisha Azar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan View Post
    Bullshit alert! Bullshit allert!
    I know the tone of this post may seem...hostile and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. Its just that I'm getting less and less tolerant of hypocricy and attempts at simplistic classifications that have nothing to do with truth, reality or logic. Okay, my brain, (as you can probably tell by the misspellings and typos), is turning to jelly. Speak later.

    A'isha do I qualify for my BOB teeshirt, yet? I am trying

    Dear Tarik,
    You have BOB written all over your beautiful self!! It's a huge honor to be in the same club with you, Sir!!
    Regards,
    A'isha

  6. #86
    Member Didi's Avatar
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    Default What???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan View Post
    Just for the record, dancing is not the only thing that will brand a guy gay. 1. Wearing gold, 2. wearing shorts, 3. long hair, 4. getting a tatoo, 5. Not being married by a certain age, in fact doing anything out of "the norm".
    Whoa! I must be really out of touch with the mainstream. Now, I do live in the "gay district" in Atlanta and have lots of contact with homosexual people, male and female, but I never in my life heard of wearing gold, shorts, having long hair or a tattoo making you gay!!! And not getting married by a certain age?? What age, pray tell. I know lots of unmarried heterosexual males in their 30s and 40s. Where in the world is this nonsense originating from?

    I think this must be really rural thinking (?) or religious right rhetoric/paranoia. It is certainly not generally accepted anymore in the cosmopolitan culture I am surrounded by. Thank goodness.

    And as far as a man being labeled gay just because he dances at all, what in the world would the clubs come to if the men didn't dance? In hip-hop clubs, that is where most of my personal enjoyment comes from: watching the men dance. It's fabulous, it's fun, and maybe some of them are gay, but the vast majority are NOT. They have a special energy (well, the ones who are actually in the present moment and the music and not worried about social stuff going on/their self-image) that the women do not have, and which complements the female energy of dance very nicely indeed.

    Now, as far as other cultures, I have a limited perspective, obviously. In Montreal where I lived for many years, the gay community seemed virtually the same as in Atlanta. Perhaps a little less flamboyant, and certainly a smaller population, but still quite open and accepted. In France, only in rural areas or with the elderly would you hear the typical anti-gay, paranoid rhetoric... and there was an equal current of misogyny in that cultural framework, as well.

    As far as the Middle East is concerned, A'isha's observations didn't surprise me at all. Whenever a culture tries to suppress or demonize the feminine principle (and almost all modern cultures have attempted this with disastrous results), the repression gets visited eventually on the ones doing the repressing. So that males are now self-repressing aspects of their being with an equal harshness as that applied directly and outwardly toward the female. It's just justice.

    It's not evil any more than it is evil when you find intolerance in America or anywhere else -- or in yourself, where it is better to look first, of course. It's unconsciousness on the part of the culture, and it is destined to dissolve eventually in enlightenment/awakening. The only thing we can do about it is recognize the unconsciousness in ourselves, our everyday interactions with others, and choose to wake up and not engage in it anymore.

    Didi

    P.S. What's a BOB teeshirt, please?
    And thanks for the explanation of "Haram."

  7. #87
    V.I.P. Moon's Avatar
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    Looks like guys are being labeled "gay" when they dare to do stuff most straight guys don't dare.

    By the way not only guys experience nonsense like this. In high school, I never didn't have a boyfriend yet at a certain age and I didn't seem tp be interested in guys from school (well, I just tried hard not to show it) so some people concluded I must have been lesbian

  8. #88
    V.I.P. Aisha Azar's Avatar
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    Default Gay, etc.

    Dear Group,
    There are some addendums to Tarik's statements about what can brand a person as gay.
    Many Arab men wear gold. They wear Rolexes and other gold. Among the wealthy this seems to be okay, though technically it is against Islamic law for males to wear gold or silk.

    Among the Bedouin, you still find men who wear their hair long and there is no taboo against it. I have met several Arab males with long hair who are not gay. Some guys wear their hair long in the States and get it cut just before they go home. In fact, even guys with short hair and girls seem to get their hair doen before they go home!!

    Okay, and for those of you who are easily offended, this is the place to stop
    reading!! Having discussed the subject at some length with some Saudis one weird night, I learned that in a society where men spend most of their time among men, sometimes "things happen". If a male happens to be the dominant one in a homosexual relationship, it is sometimes considered that he is keeping his male status, but that his partner is acting like a woman. The one who, in their minds, assumes the female role, can get branded as a "Funny Boy" and will be ostracized. The other partner does not seem to lose social status because he is, in effect, sdtill in male character.

    Regards,
    A'isha

  9. #89
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan View Post
    This will probably open a can of worms, but this dance does not immitate child birth.
    Having produced two ten and a half pound babies via natural childbirth, I always get a hysterical urge to laugh whenever someone brings up the "imitate childbirth" thing. I cannot recall a single thing I did while pushing those human Tonka trucks out that looked (or felt) anything like what I do while dancing. (Oh, heavens, here comes the hysterical laughter... excuse me while I get myself under control.) No shoulder shimmies, no graceful belly rolls, no mayas, no sweet and sexy little smiles for my husband or the OB-Gyn... And I sure the hell would've been thrown off stage had I demonstrated my superior baby-pushing-out abilities during a dance.

  10. #90
    Moderator Zorba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan View Post
    As much as I am probably noted as being the biggest champion of male dancers, i do not agree that they are on average better than women. It very much depends on the individual. From my observation and experience, male dancers mirror our female counter parts in that most are average, a small percentage are exceptionally talented and there are a whole bunch that just....welll.....

    Anyway, gender and talent DO NOT go hand in hand.
    Very true indeed - and I'm probably in the latter category!

    As for people thinking I'm gay - that's THEIR problem, not mine. I do make a point of mentioning my wife early and often, but beyond that, I don't worry about it. Not my problem...

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