Appropriate gestures and postures in bellydance

[Aisha Azar]

Dance, etcd.

Dear Janaki and Moon,
In fact, the dance is sexual, and even the most proclaimed native dancers that I know of are sometimes actually sleazy. I am a dancer who is pretty sexual, but I do not feel that I am sleazy in any way. They are not the same thing.
Sensual is a word used to pretty up something that really does not need to be prettied up. When we start being honest about what we are doing, we will not confuse our public as much and we will not hurt the dance any either.
I am sorry but this conversation reminds me of people who have lunch at Hooters restaurant..... and get pissed off at the pretty girls with their lovely breasts in their cute little t-shirts, The girls are sure sexy alot of the time, in fun and healthy ways, but many people would prefer to think of them as sleazy.
In that case my advice is if you are offended by the nature of the restaurant, why eat there?? I think the same thing is true about the dance. If you are offended by sexuality, then this is not the dance for you, because whether we dress it up or not, the nature of the dance is sexy on purpose. You can dress modestly or like a cheap tart and the dance's nature remains the same.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[janaki]

Hi A'isha,

I toally agree that this is a very sexy dance. I am confortable with this dance form no matter what anyone calls it. But sometimes it is easier if it is not called a sexy dance. I'll tell you why.

1. One of the places I taught here, they didn't like to call this sexy dance.The organiser of the class said, it will put off the ladies, or their husbands may object. So they called it a feminine dance, sensual dance, arabian dance, exotic dance etc., In some cultures, especially in asia, anything in the nature of sex, sexy, sexual is not openly discussed and accepted. In these cultures people feel confortable with the thought that this is sensuous dance than a sexy dance, even if they are aware it is sexy!!! Personally I prefer people call bellydance, bellydance but nothing else.

2. I have two boys and they see me dance all the time. I am definitely not comfortable to tell them this is a sexy dance. Once, my older boy overheard my conversation with my gilrfriends about bellydance and how sexy it is and stuff. He came to me and said " Mummy is that mean bellydancing is only for adults??"

Calling it a sensual dance to suite certain situation won't take out the sexiness of this dance. Sometimes, it is not always about how comfortable I am with the dance, it is also about how comfortable the other person is.. the person who wants to learn from me and wants to watch me dance.

Cheers
Janaki

 

[samsied]

Originally Posted by Donya

the only taboo i have heard is no palms or soles of feet.

I have heard this a lot but am unsure about it...

The soles of the feet I tend to agree with, since I have heard it from enough credible sources and had it ocasionally confirmed by people from root cultures.

The palms of the hands... I am not so sure. I have heard just as many people say there is no taboo in showing the palms of the hands in the MidEast. I have been told by a Lebanese girl that the only problem she can think of is if a dancer forces the palms of the hands toward the audience as that could look like a hostile gesture. When I watch videos of Egyptian, Lebanese or Turkish dancers none seem to deliberately hide the palms of their hands. A Moroccan teacher I had, taught the class a choreography that includes gestures that show the palm of the hands. I have asked about this on forums previously and a few say they have heard this before and a few others say they dont believe this to be true.

If this is true, does anyone know more about this and which countries it is true? I have yet to hear anyone say that seeing the palm is taboo in any specific Middle Eastern/North African country--just that is is in some Middle Eastern/North African countres. I would love to know where this idea comes from and what truth is behind it (which there must by some nugget of truth or it would not be so widespread).

 

[samsied]

Hi A'isha,

I toally agree that this is a very sexy dance. I am confortable with this dance form no matter what anyone calls it. But sometimes it is easier if it is not called a sexy dance. I'll tell you why....

Calling it a sensual dance to suite certain situation won't take out the sexiness of this dance. Sometimes, it is not always about how comfortable I am with the dance, it is also about how comfortable the other person is.. the person who wants to learn from me and wants to watch me dance.

Cheers
Janaki

I agree this dance is usually sexy when done sincerely. I agree it is also sensual--as sexy can certainly be part of sensual. I am not always sure that people who debate sensual vs sexual are actually disagreeing about anything other than the word they believe describes it. I am not sure if there is agreement on what those two terms really mean. Some dancers who prefer the word sensual are still amazing dancers and may be described by others as "sexy".

I also know there are a few dancers who try to take the sexy and sensual out of the dance. I had a teacher like this once and it took me a while to recognize this. But I always felt something was missing--at first I thought it was my switch from studying American to "Egyptian" style. She didn't use the term "sensual" or "sexual"--she spoke of it being a dance by and for women. She use to correct me on so many moves I learned from other dancers saying they are American not Egyptian and inappropriate. Moves such as the pelvic circle/Omi/African circle, huge bent over hip circle, upper body shimmy where more than just the shoulders move, etc.

For me the big "Aha" was when I saw a choreography that I learned from this teacher performed by the original choreographer (the dancer who taught it to her). There were a couple of moves in this choreography that I always found a little forced and awkward. Strangely enough every move I found awkward, was a move that my teacher used to replace a juicy move from the original choreography. Also the attitude of the original dancer was very playful--while I never felt "playful" doing this dance as taught by my exteacher. This really made me aware of the problem with trying to clean this dance up. Everything that I thought was powerful and fun about the orginal dance was lost in our version of it. Our version was still cute, but nothing more than cute. The original version fit the music better and it was juicy and hot!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance, etc.

Dear Samsied,
I think there IS a problem that develops when people try to subvert the natural feeling and tendencies of the dance. When the dance is watered down, what you get is REALLY mediocre performance instead of the truth of the dance,and like you say, it becomes awkward and weird. Thank you for a very expressive anecdote!!


Dear Janaki,
It is not necessary to call the dance, sexy, sensual, sexual or the like. The dance speaks for itself.

This is what I say in my written advertising:
"Egyptian belly dance is an authentic ethnic dance in movement and spirit. The dance and dancer are the physical manifestation of and visual compliment to the exotic music they accompany. Like ballet, the dance has precise movements based on root concepts. The dancer enjoys a full range of personal expression within the dance. A'isha Azar offers instruction emphasizing integrity of movement and enhancing cultural understanding, celebrating this most beautiful of Middle Eastern dances."

Anyone who studies or even sees the dance can make their own judgement on how sexy it is!!

Regards to you both,
A'isha

 

[Reen.Blom]

I agree the dance speaks for itself! That's why I am amazed to watch on youtube some famous Egyptian dancers wearing sleaziest costumes I have ever seen...

If the dance is sexy why wear a dress that barely keeps the breast in? Will the dance be "more" sexy if the underwear shows through thin skirt? I am not suprised after watching such video's that belly dance is frowned upon in arabic culture(having read that even the ppl who dont mind it would not want their wife/sister/daughter be a belly dancer).

That might sound harsh, but do they really need to look like cheap sluts to proclaim that the dance is feminine and sexy?

I am quite confused, maybe I watched wrong clips, but Dina totally put me off...

 

[janaki]

Yes, I agree with you reen.blom!!!

Why we need flashing thongs and ooooooozing boobs, when the dance itself is sexy. If there is anything that need cleaning up in this dance, it is not it sexyness, it is the costuming!!! Trashy or a sleazy is not my cup of tea!!!!

Cheers
Janaki

 

[Shanazel]

As for teachers who say "its a shoulder shimmy not a breast shimmy"...aarrghh!!!!! Watch any female dancers from any country where this dance is indigenous. They are shaking their breasts!! When a teacher says something like this that is in such total and utter contrast with what you can see with your own two eyes, be very very suspect, and wonder what else you are learning that might not be true!!!

And heaven forbid, if you are one of the teachers saying this, maybe you need to stop and rethink what and why you are teaching.

Sedonia

I am one of those teachers who discriminates between a shoulder shimmy and shaking one's breasts, but I don't think I will throw myself on my sword just yet. All teachers accumulate their own set of prejudices, likes, and dislikes, whether they are teaching dance or cake decoration. My set of prejudices includes a preference for a shoulder shimmy which results in a more subtle movement of the breasts than sticking one's chest out and letting 'er rip. I also don't care for the boobs on a string gimmick so dear to the hearts of many dancers, nor do I care to see someone stick their butt out as far as it will go toward the audience while doing an enormous hip circle. (Perhaps it is my background as a biologist, but that last movement makes me think of simian presenting positions.)

My preference for subtle movement is more a matter of my own modesty and personal expression of the dance than it is cluelessness about what is being done.

 

[Sara]

Well,

I get taught it's shoulders too, but one of my main problems with dance is that I don't always understand where the movements come from cause my teach dunt explain it. I just do them and work it out for mysen. I know when I shimmy I shake my boobs and don't move my shoulders, if owt my shoulders follow my boobs. I quite like my chest shimmy's though I think it's more natural and looks good when the shoulders don't move, unless you want to accent summate. It's obvious what you are trying to shake when you do a shoulder shimmy so why not shake em? :dance: :think:

One thing I heard was don't dip the middle finger. :naghty:

 

[Shanazel]

It's obvious what you are trying to shake when you do a shoulder shimmy so why not shake em? :dance: :think:

Finesse and style.

Still, as you say, nowt does any harm if tha doesn't overdo it.

Your teachers don't explain where the movement comes from, but leave you to work it out yourself? That's not teaching- that's demonstration.

 

[Sara]

Lol- As shouldne say it like but I've been dancing as long, if not longer than her. She's more into the whole floaty thing about dance, not the actual dancing. Mum sez all she does is walk around.

 

[sedoniaraqs]

I am one of those teachers who discriminates between a shoulder shimmy and shaking one's breasts, but I don't think I will throw myself on my sword just yet.

Dear Shanazel: There *is* a difference between shoulder movements and a bust shimmy in Egyptian dance. I call the shoulder ones shoulder articulations though, so my students understand these are different movements. Samia Gamal has some signature shoulder articulations in which the shoulders are the focal point of the movement. These are not really what you'd call shimmies.

The upper body shimmy that is more common in Egyptian dance, and the one most Americans call shoulder shimmies, have as their focal point movement of the breasts and the shoulders, or in some cases (Nagua Fouad comes to mind), mostly the breasts with the shoulders not moving much at all.

I don't have a problem with dancers who prefer not to move their breasts very much in these shimmies simply as a matter of their personal style and preference, I have a problem with teachers who try to tell their students that somehow it is not correct for the bust movement to be a focal point of the movement.

When the upper body is lifted and "out there" and the breasts are shimmied powered by the back muscles, this movement is very elegant to me; I feel no modesty inhibiting me from doing it, and do not think it looks sleazy at all within the context of Egyptian dance. It is different from a stripper movement because of the posture and the intent.

Most of the Egyptian dancers who have been brought to the U.S. to teach and perform have made comments about how the Americans are not moving the the breasts enough during what we call a shoulder shimmy. Mona, Dina, and Fifi I know have all told their American classes to shake their breasts more.

Think about it. Out of all the things they could nitpick us on, this one always jumps to their attention. This and the need to feel the music and not be a slave to choreography and counting.

Sedonia

 

[Shanazel]

Hi, Sedonia. I appreciate your input and read it with great interest. It is interesting that dancers from the middle east think Americans don't shake their breasts enough, isn't it? I see more American dancers doing it now than in the past, so it seems to be coming into fashion here as well.

I teach as separate movements Samia-style articulations, shoulder shimmies and upper body shimmies that result in enough breast shaking to please Dina, FiFi and Mona . Breast movement is not the focal point of shoulder shimmies, though heaven knows I can't stop the little darlings from shimmering gently along with my shoulders. Breast movement is the focal point of the upper body shimmies. I think we are basically agreeing here, though terminology is weighing us down once again.

Shanazel

 

[charity]

i think we might define sexy and sensous differently. sensous, to me is a display of someones natural sexiness, it isnt created or protrayed, it is exuded. sexiness is more pro-active. contrived with choreography and costume to elicit a certain response from the crowd. this is how i distinguish the two. sensous is sexy. sexy is sensous or sleazy. it depends on how you deliver it, the attitude, the costume, the music...

like someone has already stated, how you choose to express yourself is based on personal preference same is true for how it is interpretted.

 

[Kharmine]

Neat discussion!

I've seen breast shimmies in old Egyptian movies designed for Egyptian audiences -- but not all the old-time dancers did them. And those shimmies looked more subtle than the kind I often see modern Western dancers do.

As with 'most everything else all over the world, different peoples and cultures have their own meanings for the same gestures and body movements. Because belly dance itself is a synthesis of various ME/Turkish/Greek/Armenian folk styles with a strong Western influence -- depending on which style is emphasized (and the audience), you see quite different reactions to the same things.

And when politics affect religions, you see attitude changes, too. Certainly most Muslim-dominated countries have gotten more conservative and the more conservative they are the more likely just the idea of a woman dancing before men she isn't related to is offensive, let alone anything else she does!

The immigrant Arab-American communities that helped develop and support belly dance in the U.S. were mostly Sephardic Jews and Christians of Middle Eastern sects, Now when people say "Arab-American" here it usually means Muslim and much more conservative, because that's how the immigrant communities have changed.

All of which is gonna have an impact in how anything is viewed today, even if it didn't used to be a controversy!

 

[SmilingMarie]

Previous in this thread someone mentioned putting their right hand on the left side of their face, next to the nose, index finger pointing towards the eye.
I have been taught that this is often used in khaleegi esp when swinging your hair from side to side - your hand on the cheek is ok (keeping your long hair from getting in your eyes) but by the side of the nose signals that you're 'game' - anyone know about this?
and any comments on not dipping your middle finger?? someone mentioned this earlier on in the thread too - I've surely never heard of it.
about showing palms - I think it is ok as long as you know you are doing it - showing you palms and doing a bust/shoulder shake can send 'the wrong' signals (not that the dance can't be swxy - you just need to be aware of when you are!)

 

[Aisha Azar]

Hands, etc.

Previous in this thread someone mentioned putting their right hand on the left side of their face, next to the nose, index finger pointing towards the eye.
I have been taught that this is often used in khaleegi esp when swinging your hair from side to side - your hand on the cheek is ok (keeping your long hair from getting in your eyes) but by the side of the nose signals that you're 'game' - anyone know about this?
and any comments on not dipping your middle finger?? someone mentioned this earlier on in the thread too - I've surely never heard of it.
about showing palms - I think it is ok as long as you know you are doing it - showing you palms and doing a bust/shoulder shake can send 'the wrong' signals (not that the dance can't be swxy - you just need to be aware of when you are!)

Dear Smiling Marie,
The hand is put to the side of the nose in Gulf dance because the dance was originally an imitation dance that told of life by the sea. The hand was put to the nose to imitate the pearl divers who did not use breathing equipment, but used to block their noses in the way down to the oyster beds.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[SmilingMarie]

Dear A'isha -thanks for that - I did not know that So you have never heard of this gesture as signalling 'availability'? Maybe another urban myth (alive and well in Denmark!)

 

[Aisha Azar]

Gestures, etc.

Dear A'isha -thanks for that - I did not know that So you have never heard of this gesture as signalling 'availability'? Maybe another urban myth (alive and well in Denmark!)

Dear Marie,
I have never heard that gesture as signaling availability. I learned most of my Gulf info and dance from either natives or from people who lived there. I have two articles on my website (Raqs Azar) that are about Gulf dance. They are in the library and they are "Are We confused Yet?" and "Observations On Samri". They discuss the hand gestures a little bit and other movements, the dresses, etc.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[SmilingMarie]

brilliant - I'll check it out - thanks for sharing