Appropriate gestures and postures in bellydance

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

I never heard of this at all.
But: In America some of the teachers insist shoulder and ribcage movements and want to separate them from breasts. In Egypt it's about breasts, being a woman. That's sexy and even flirty, which is not bad at all.

Dear Donya,
That is also my take on what I have learned from Arabs and from Egyptian dancers and good American dancers who dance the style. This dance is sexy, flirty asnd it is indeed okay to use upper body movements. What in the world could possibly BE more sexy than some of the pelvic stuff belly dancers do??
Another American myth I have heard is indeed about not touching the body. Egyptian dancers do it all the time, as some of the videos here show.When Dina brings her hand to her "stomach" it is not really the stomach, but sort of under the left breast, and often it is two hands that you will see the dancer use, one over the other, meaning that they are feeling something very deeply and it is "heartfelt". Another myth is something along the lines of "Don't touch your hands to your hair too much because it is considered too sexy". What do they think this dance is about, trying out for Catholic nun status??? Hair is considered sexy and that is precisely why many Egyptian dancers use theirs as part of the dance.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[samsied]

Thanks Aisha! I always enjoy reading you insights on this subject particularly when it comes to the "sexy" in Oriental dance.

I agree this is another example of what some dancers from Western countries (not just the US) state that is confusing. It is also one where what you see dancers from root countries doing doing does not match what some Western dancers tell you is appropriate. The only time I was told not to touch my hair was by an instructor in the UK, so it is not strictly an "American myth". (Although other dancers in the area do touch their hair so I am not sure her opinion is widespread). I guess I am fortunate in that altough I have seen this come up on forums very often, none of my American teachers have ever stated that it is forbiden to touch the hair or body while dancing. Some of my teachers have cautioned about touching oneself too excessively dancing, but that is a little different than saying it is forbidden.

Dear Donya,
Another American myth I have heard is indeed about not touching the body. Egyptian dancers do it all the time, as some of the videos here show.When inas brings her hand to her "stomach" it is not really the stomack, but sort of under the left breast,a nd often it is two hands that you will see the dancer use, one over te other, meaning that thy are feeling something very deeply and it is "heartfelt". Another myth is something along the lines of "Don't touch your hands to your hair too much because it is considered too sexy". What do they think this dance is about, trying out for Catholic nun status??? Hair is considered sexy and that is precisely why many Egyptian dancers use theirs as part of the dance.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[samsied]

The big upper body undulation just is not Egyptian style. It's American. So Egyptians don't do it.

As for the upper body: Many dancers do the movements too high. The movement comes from the spine, exactly from the point where women has the hooks of the bra (or even inch lower). This way it will look more effortless, natural. And it will keep better posture.

Thanks for confirming that Donya! Since I don't recall seeing an Egyptian dancer do large upper body undulations and it fits with what I have been told that makes sense.

It does seem like a lot of Egyptian dancers do a nice little sway or follow through with their hip movements in their upper body. I really like the relaxed look of it. I tried copying some of the moves using your tip about bra hook level and it does feel more natural. Of course I don't know how it looks, but I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!

 

[samsied]

I have a question about a gesture. I don't have a picture of it, but I believe I have seen Dina as well as other Egyptian dancers do this.

The dancer puts a finger next to the nose. I believe it was right hand to the left side of the nose pointing up towards the left eye. It has been a while snce I have seen it but always wonder about it. I was once told she was gesturing that she is "shy or embarrassed". Does anyone know about this gesture? I apologize that I probably haven't explained it well.

 

[janaki]

Samsied, I was going to ask the same question about touching the nose!!!

Cheers
Janaki

 

[sedoniaraqs]

RE: upper body involvement in undulations

I agree that the American style "camel" is very different than the Egyptian undulation. However, I do not think the Egyptian undulation is without upper body involvement. Its just more internalized and different.

Watch Fifi at around 1:00 into this clip, and elsewhere. When she does undulations, or the Egyptian figure 8 which is layered with an undulation, her chest rises and falls dramatically. This is not just passive movement stemming from the lower body muscles. One has to use the core muscles above the navel to make that happen. The difference is that most of the time the Egyptians are not pushing forward with the chest to start the undulation, as dancers in the American style often do. But the chest is lifted in a small internalized pulse. There are many Egyptian style moves that involve a stretching of the torso followed by a release.

O.K. Fifi has exaggerated upper body movement plus a long torso that shows these movements off. But it is not just Fifi, you can see other Egyptian dancers as well with much energy and dynamics in the upper body.

Anyway here is Fifi doing what I am trying to explain:

 

[sedoniaraqs]

I also think that the upper body lift or pulse is very evident in Soheir's undulations:

 

[kalila_raks]

My instructor told me that the touching the nose thing was a sign of affection toward the person you are looking at. Placing the finger on the side of the chin is milder version of this.

 

[nicknack]

Undulation question:

Would you start an Egyptian style undulation by contracting the diaphragm and just letting it flow down? If that makes any sense at all.

I've never been taught any style specific undulation except for an American style (chest heavy ones), so I've had to experiment, and play around to find different methods.

 

[summerdance]

belly dance moves

this is a great post guys.

I can clear up some things from the Egyptian point of view.

1- pointing to the eyes usually occurs in conjunction with the songs. In most Arab countries, the eyes are considered one of the great indicators of beauty. Many songs refer to eyes ( al ayoon al sud, literally means the black eyes, the dark eyes.) Eyes are especially admired by both poets and singers alike. You will find many references to eyes in BD music. so when a dancer points to her eyes, it's emphasizing the songs admiration of the female eye. I've also had some of my tunisian friends tell me that eyes also refer to a soul- to soul connection so that sometimes a dancer wants to emphasize her connections with both the audience and the lyrics.

2- chest shimmies/shoulder shimmies are considered fine in arab cultures, as long as they are not forward shimmies. dipping forward implies an offering of the breasts. This is highly inappropriate and frowned upon in arabic cultures. this of course, is my experience based on audience reactions to things i've seen. Of course someone may have witnessed different things. The dancers I've seen have been in big events, mostly, and polite audiences disapproved of this. Maybe in a Sh'abbi ( street or simple performance) things may be diff.

3- BTW I've also heard of dancers who were chased out of some places because they did floor routines in egyptian dances. As I understand it, the dancer is regal and getting on the floor debases her.

The cupping thing is more of the hand cupping in front of the breast as an offering of her heart to the audience. Dina does this a lot. If you watch closely, she never cups the breast.

Regards!

I have seen egyptian dancers do this.

1. Put their hand under the left breast (like cupping ) just momentarily. I asked one my teachers and she siad it means to express love. I have always thought it got to be true becuase the heart is on the left side.

2. I have seen dancers poiting to their eyes from time to time. Does this have a special meaning or are they just simply interpreting the lyrics?

3. I have also seen egyptian dancers placing the hand/plam on the stomach. I was told many thing like love/affection/feeling/mood etc., etc.,

Pls keep adding on ladies and gents!!!

Cheers
Janaki

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Would you start an Egyptian style undulation by contracting the diaphragm and just letting it flow down? If that makes any sense at all.

Raqia does a pelvic undulation she calls her "camel." When she taught this in Atlanta, it was more of a pelvic and low ab movement, but I'm CONVINCED that on either technique 1 or Technique 2 tape, when she's demonstrating a choreography with a student, she is (a couple of times at least) starting that pelvic "camel" from the muscles just under the diaphragm. You can see that part of her stomach moving.

Someone else -- I think it was Artemis (!) taught a sort-of lower-body undulation, which is kind of like a belly roll that works its way into the pelvis, but think of your belly muscles pulling back to your spine rather than just rolling around in front. The emphasis is on the backward pull, as opposed to forward push of the pelvis.

BTW -- does anyone remember this -- Shareen mentioned that pelvic camel thing can have the accent on the pull back, or the accent on the push forward. She said one was more folkloric and one was more "Oriental." Anybody know which was which? I had it in my notes that I though the pull back was more folkloric, but I have reason to doubt that particular set of notes.

Thanks!

 

[janaki]

You are right Aziyade, Raqia's camel is a pelvic undulation. I asked her about the camle in one of her workshops few years ago and she does the pelvic undulation. Her undulation is more internal than external, what I mean is more in the stomach than the pelvis. I learned to do camel in a more exaggerated way!!! Egyptian camels are definitely different!!!

Cheers
Janaki

 

[Yasmina]

Dear Donya,
That is also my take on what I have learned from Arabs and from Egyptian dancers and good American dancers who dance the style. This dance is sexy, flirty asnd it is indeed okay to use upper body movements. What in the world could possibly BE more sexy than some of the pelvic stuff belly dancers do??
Another American myth I have heard is indeed about not touching the body. Egyptian dancers do it all the time, as some of the videos here show.When Dina brings her hand to her "stomach" it is not really the stomach, but sort of under the left breast, and often it is two hands that you will see the dancer use, one over the other, meaning that they are feeling something very deeply and it is "heartfelt". Another myth is something along the lines of "Don't touch your hands to your hair too much because it is considered too sexy". What do they think this dance is about, trying out for Catholic nun status??? Hair is considered sexy and that is precisely why many Egyptian dancers use theirs as part of the dance.
Regards,
A'isha

Dear A'isha, just to confirm your wisdom

My teacher is Egyptian and he has performed in Egypt for 20 years. Now he lives in Europe. Sticking to Egyptian style is his mission and the only way possible for him. In his choreographies:

1. he always corrects us when we do shoulder shimmies instead of breast shimmies (by the way, he says shoulder shimmies are typical for several Moroccan dances)

2. he frequently tells us to feel sexy and playful

3. he involves movements touching the body aaaaall the time

4. he frequently tells us (especially the ones with long hair) to touch our hands to our hair if we feel like it at certain points - he uses the "hair element" quite often

 

[Aisha Azar]

Gestures, etc.

Dear A'isha, just to confirm your wisdom

My teacher is Egyptian and he has performed in Egypt for 20 years. Now he lives in Europe. Sticking to Egyptian style is his mission and the only way possible for him. In his choreographies:

1. he always corrects us when we do shoulder shimmies instead of breast shimmies (by the way, he says shoulder shimmies are typical for several Moroccan dances)

2. he frequently tells us to feel sexy and playful

3. he involves movements touching the body aaaaall the time

4. he frequently tells us (especially the ones with long hair) to touch our hands to our hair if we feel like it at certain points - he uses the "hair element" quite often

Dear Yasmina,
I am glad that your teacher and I are on the same page. It is nice to have the validation, because there is, in the United States, this sort of attitude that the dance is NOt sexy, when clearly the message IS sexy!! No wonder our porr audeinces feel slightly schizoid after getting these congfusing mixed messages!!!
Shoulder shimmies are also common in Gulf dance, Debke, and some Levantine and Middke Eastern dances as well.
Gestures: At the workshops this week-end, Fifi said that the gestures she makes are "Hers", but that they really just either do something to describe the words of the song, or are stuff she just does for fun, basically. And for those of you who have made comments about Jodette's webiste and her saying she is the "first" and "only", Fifi proved fairly often that this is indeed an Arab cultural thing. She also is the "first" and "only" to do many things in dance. It does not mean literally that she is the first and only, but that she is known for doing the things that she does.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Mya]

As for the upper body: Many dancers do the movements too high. The movement comes from the spine, exactly from the point where women has the hooks of the bra (or even inch lower). This way it will look more effortless, natural. And it will keep better posture.

i was just wondering what you meant by this - do you mean that moves like chest lifts should be from that point or that undulations should start from that point and go downwards...i'm just curious because i was trained to do my chest pops from the diaphragm so that the back isn't involved at all. :think:

 

[janaki]

I am with A'isha. Bellydance is a sexy dance. I don't understand why people go to lengths to sell the dance otherwise!!! I also would like to re-emphasise that all most all egyptian teachers I have studied with taught me chest/breast shimmy not shoulder shimmy. I remember one time when I was taking a private lessons from an egyptian teacher, her husband was there(he is her manager). I was struggling to do chest/breast shimmy beacuse when I was learning, I was taught to do ONLY (warned not to shake my breasts, and was told it is very rude) shoulder shimmy. He asked me if I was shy to do it. He said to me, " you are a beautiful women, it is the celebration move for women. Only women can do this. When men do it, it has not much meaning to it, relax and enjoy being women". Ever since I celebrate my womenhood all the time LOL.

Touching once body when dancing: I was told by one of my teachers that a good bellydancer never touches her body. I never understood why it is taboo when the dance itselft is so sexy. I asked my egyptian teachers when I started studying with them, I was told it is American invetion and added lot of other stuff ( I can't mention it here).

In conclusion, yes, I do chest/breast shimmies, I touch my body, when it is relevant to the dance!!! I am not afraid what anyone says. I know I am not doing anything lewd or obscene!! LOL

Cheers
Janaki

 

[charity]

Originally Posted by Donya
As for the upper body: Many dancers do the movements too high. The movement comes from the spine, exactly from the point where women has the hooks of the bra (or even inch lower). This way it will look more effortless, natural. And it will keep better posture.

well a lady bd teacher at the studio calls this the hinge point. i think it depends on your flexibility that determines how natural your move comes off.

i consider it the point that you circle around when doing chest circles. its the center line for chest lifts and drops. you go above it or below it.

i was just wondering what you meant by this - do you mean that moves like chest lifts should be from that point or that undulations should start from that point and go downwards...i'm just curious because i was trained to do my chest pops from the diaphragm so that the back isn't involved at all. :think:

i first learned chest lifts from the diaphragm as well, that moves your chest straight up as if to touch the bottom of your chin. with the muscles between shoulder blades, it arcs the chest slightly forward to front and up.

i do both.

and i dont recall the exact source but it was a book on yoga, so perhaps irrelevant to the conversation but anyway i read that hands over, but not touching the left breast in a triangular shape, means an expression of committed love. and the triangle over the abdomen and to the side, expresses something of a spiritual exchange and ability to give life. just an idea.

the only taboo i have heard is no palms or soles of feet.

 

[Moon]

Bellydance is a sexy dance. I don't understand why people go to lengths to sell the dance otherwise!!!

I prefer to call the dance "sensual" instead of "sexy" or sexual" because a lot of Western people immediately connect "sexy" or "sexual" with wearing as less clothes as possible or dancing purely to seduce men, etc. (at least that's the feeling I get) While I think the sensual nature of the dance should come from the beautiful movements, not from sleazy costumes/behaviour.

 

[janaki]

Hi Moon,

There is no doubt it is a sensual dance!!!! Many moves are very sexy too. I would also prefer that this dance is called sensual dance instead of sexy. But we must admit, it is very sexy. All th hip work, chest work is very sexy. Shimmies are sexy costume is sexy...list goes on. It is very difficult to argue the case otherwise.

Sexy and sexual are two different things. Sexual definitely is sleazy. I understand what you mean. It is easy to get confused between sexy and sexual!!!

Cheers
Janaki

 

[Moon]

Yes the dance can be sexy too indeed, because of the movements! Same as cha-cha or samba can look very sexy but no-one connects that with prostitution