Certified Courses

[Sara]

Heyas,

I've noticed lately that there are a lot of belly dance courses popping up. I'm not sure of my own opinion on them so thought I'd ask you lot yours. Do you really think that courses like these are beneficial and would you consider taking one of them yourself?

Here are a few examples of what I mean...

ASMED

Jacqueline Jamal - Professional Dancers Programme

Jwaad - Teacher Training Diploma Course - Josephine Wise

Is this a common thing? What would you say the benefits of a course such as this were?

Do you think the certification is worth anything at the end?

I'm in two minds about them :think: and would like to hear what you lot have to say

Cheers in advance,
Sara :tongue:

 

[janaki]

Hi Sara,

A short answer to your question is yes and no. I have done 2 teachers traning courses so far. One course taught me how to practice safe dancing. I was a great eye opener for me. I was trained by egytian teachers, and they lock the knees to execute many hip and stomach accents. It is not all good for the knees. Since my training, I have changed the way I teach and dance.

From the other course, I have learned the logistics on how to survive as a bellydancer and presenting technique in many different ways.

Yes, there is tons of info on the net. But having a real person to person exchange is amazing. I choose to do these course because and I knew the content of the syllabus being taught. Some of my friends did other course and were not happy. My suggestion is to check what is being presented and go for it, if it is suitable to you.

Good luck!!!

Cheers
Janaki

 

[Moon]

I think certified courses are very useful when it's some kind of course like Janaki did, about safe dancing, or when it's about how to deal with students, how to give a good wharmup etc. The kind of certified courses I think are weird are those for beginning bellydance students in which each year you learn some specified movement or a choreo and you have to do an exam or something like that :think:

 

[janaki]

The bad part about these course is, many beginner students go and get a certification and start teaching. These type of course are desinged to just make money. Boy oh boy, I have seen those!!! They don't evaluate the student that is taking the course at all. I have been in one of those. I walked out an hour later and demanded my money back. After 2 days of arguing, I got my money back!!!

A good teachers training should have selection criteria. Teachers training is not for everybody. The students must posses enough technique and knowlegde base.

Cheers
Janaki

 

[Aisha Azar]

Certification

Dear Sara,

I am technically against people claiming to certify people in belly dance courses. First, much of what is being taught as belly dance out there is not, so how can people certify anyone in something they are not doing? We also have the misleading idea that sine one is "certified" that they actually are qualified, which is two different things. There is also the implication that if one is certified in such and such method that it means something beyond what it does mean.

How much is the piece of paper that says you are certified worth to you? How important is it to be a certified belly dancer when weighed against some of the rip-off prices you are charged for the certificate? I might add that I have a certificate from Jodette that says I completed her belly dance course. What does that mean in the real world of belly dance?? Not a thing, and I highly respect and love Jodette as a teacher and dancer!!

I think in the end, we do not have the kind of dance form that benefits much from certification in the first place as this implies very set methods of teaching and dance that simply do not exist, even among the very culturally correct versions of the dance, never mind the fusion versions, etc. There is no "one way" to do things that would either call for or support certification programs.

Like many long time instructors, I have developed a teaching methodology. I have also developed a teacher training program. In neither case would I assume that I have the right to certify anyone as a belly dancer simply because I have programs that train people to dance and teach.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[janaki]

Hi A'isha you are very realisitic about what you said. My reasons for supporting these courses are;

I have seen so many girls started teaching bellydancing after learning few classes.It is important that someone tells/teaches/trains them about how not to do certain stuff. Making them aware how much out there to study and how long it takes to study will give this kind of people something to think about.

These are my comments about your post!!! My comments are included in the QUOTE.

Dear Sara,

I am technically against people claiming to certify people in belly dance courses. ME TOOO.First, much of what is being taught as belly dance out there is not, so how can people certify anyone in something they are not doing? YOU ARE SO ABSOLUTELY RIGHT HERE A'ISHA. I HAVE SEEN COURSES OFFERED BY AMETURE DANCERS/NOT PROFESSIONAL TEACHERS.
We also have the misleading idea that sine one is "certified" that they actually are qualified, which is two different things. YOU ARE RIGHT! THERE ARE NOT MANY PEOPLE THAT ARE QULIFIED TO DO THIS KIND OF STUFF. There is also the implication that if one is certified in such and such method that it means something beyond what it does mean.

How much is the piece of paper that says you are certified worth to you? I AM NOT SURE ABOUT IN USA AND OTHER PLACES BUT IN HONG KONG, I HAVE SEEN SOME GIRLS GOT CERTIFICATIONS SO THAT THEY CAN GET VISA TO STAY OR THE EMPLYER WOULD SIGN A DANCE CONTRACT OR THEY CAN START TEACHING DANCE. FOR MANY PEOPLE CERTIFICATION IS THE FIRST PROOF THAT A DANCER/TEACHERS HAS ACCOMPLISHED SOMETHING. SADLY, THESE GIRLS LITERALY BOUGHT THEIR CERTIFICATIONS. How important is it to be a certified belly dancer when weighed against some of the rip-off prices you are charged for the certificate? IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIUAL DANCER/TEACHERS. THERE ARE VERY HONEST AND GENUINE DANCERS LIKE YOU (IF I MAY, I WOULD BE HONOURED TO PUT MYSELF NEXT TO YOU HERE), AND THERE ARE COMMERICAL OPERATORS. FOR PEOPLE LIKE US A PIECE OF PAPER DOES'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. FOR THE OTHER GROUP, YES, IT DOES.I might add that I have a certificate from Jodette that says I completed her belly dance course. What does that mean in the real world of belly dance?? Not a thing, and I highly respect and love Jodette as a teacher and dancer!! MY BOTH TEACHERS TRAINING WERE USEFUL FOR ME. AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, I HAVE LEARNED SOMETHING USEFUL THAT I DIDN'T GET TO LEARN IN REGULAR BELLY DANCE CLASSES.

I think in the end, we do not have the kind of dance form that benefits much from certification in the first place as this implies very set methods of teaching and dance that simply do not exist, even among the very culturally correct versions of the dance, never mind the fusion versions, etc. There is no "one way" to do things that would either call for or support certification programs.

Like many long time instructors, I have developed a teaching methodology. I have also developed a teacher training program. In neither case would I assume that I have the right to certify anyone as a belly dancer simply because I have programs that train people to dance and teach. YES, OF COURSE! WHY NOT??? I THINK PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND FEW OTHERS OUT THERE (I MEAN THE GENUINE ONES) KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT THIS DANCE AND PERSONALLY I THINK YOU CAN CERTIFY A DANCER IN IN YOUR METHODOLGY. I WILL DO YOUR CERTIFICATION CLASS ANYTIME!!!!FF.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Shanazel]

Genuine professional certifications are offered by recognized organizations and educational institutions and not just anyone who decides she sounds a little classier (and can make a little more money) by offering her own certifications. Last time I checked, there were no professional organizations backing belly dance certification.

 

[deelybopper]

I don't think it's about lots of courses just 'popping up' - the JWAAD and ASMED courses have been around for many years. What has happened recently is a debate in the UK BD press about standards in BD teaching which has perhaps prompted more publicity about these courses. I have to admit I was unaware of the Jacqui Jamal course until now.

As to the value of 'certification'...I have to admit that I am sceptical. This dance isn't codified and standardised in the way that other dances are or have been for the purposes of examination and certification, and I have to admit that's one of the things that I find attractive about BD. However, I think that many of the courses will have valuable elements in terms of teaching safe dance practice, and teaching people HOW TO TEACH.

I also echo the other concerns regarding certification vs. qualification. Because a person has a certificate doesn't mean that they are 'qualified' or any good at teaching.

However...I have been dancing for 11 years, and teaching for 5. I recently decided to stump up the cash for the JWAAD Teacher Training Foundation (NOT the full monty), because I felt under increasing pressure to prove that my 'standard' of teaching is good enough. So far I have attended the first weekend, and....didn't learn anything I didn't already know in terms of health & safety and safe warm ups, but did learn some more practical tips in terms of teaching certain movements. Without knowing exactly what the second weekend has in store, I think this is going to pretty much describe the whole experience for me.

So - is it worth it?
- The course that I am doing is basically confirming stuff that I already knew - which is a positive (i.e. I haven't been doing it wrong all these years!). It's also pretty expensive - which is a downer - I am paying money to confirm that I've been doing things right:think:
- I get a certificate at the end, which isn't recognised by any professional bodies, nor is it an official accrediation. But - it is proof that I have made an effort to look into H&S and teaching methods, and that may well count for something with some prospective employers - only time will tell on this front. - I get to meet and network with other dancers and teachers...although there are plenty of other opportunities to do this

At the end of the day I can't say whether it's worth it or not, cos I haven't completed the course - but I've contributed to the thread, and probably to Sara's confusion
D

 

[Lydia]

A,ISHA...thank you for that mail!!! 100 % treu treu......i could never explain it like that with my clumsy english...have a nice day Lydia

 

[Suheir]

Coincidentally, I've just found a couple of video clips of the professional troupe of Josephine Wise, the founder of JWAAD:





In the first clip they don't seem to be terribly in time with each other (especially obvious in the hip circles) and at one point one of the dancers is doing completely different movements to the others.

Earlier today I was watching a clip of a Norwegian troupe, the members of which I saw perform in Oslo this year, the difference in energy between the two troupes is massive:
Divas of Bellydance - Film

 

[Moon]

Indeed, while watching the first clips, I got the feeling I could join that troup with a little practice. I didn't get that feeling at all while watching the Norwegian troupe :lol:

 

[Suheir]

Indeed, while watching the first clips, I got the feeling I could join that troup with a little practice. I didn't get that feeling at all while watching the Norwegian troupe :lol:

At least two of the dancers in the first clip are teachers on the JWAAD training course and several of the others have been dancing for as long as the members of the Norwegian troupe, if not longer.

We have *much* better dancers in the UK but sadly, they have no videos on the web. I've never actually taken a class or workshop with the head of JWAAD as I was put off by her dancing when I first saw her perform. I reference Eshta's thread: http://forum.orientaldancer.net/other-dance-stuff/2653-belly-dance-overextended-hyperbole.html

 

[Rick Fink]

Certification

Hey everyone,

Many of you know about this already but for those who have not check out: http://www.medancecertification.org/

This is a teacher certification organization that is primarily for established teachers who need some sort of certification so that they can teach at a college.

Take care, Rick Fink

www.zhelene.com
www.orientalistart.net
www.medancecertification.org

 

[Aisha Azar]

Certification

Hey everyone,

Many of you know about this already but for those who have not check out: National Association for Teacher Certification in Middle Eastern Dance

This is a teacher certification organization that is primarily for established teachers who need some sort of certification so that they can teach at a college.

Take care, Rick Fink

Z-Helene
Orientalist Art of the Nineteenth Century
National Association for Teacher Certification in Middle Eastern Dance

Dear Rick,
I worked as costume designer at a university for 7 years. None of my degrees are in Costuming, though I am a professional costumer. I also have taught Middle Eastern dance at one 2 year college and one university, with no certificate. My question here is, what makes the dancers on that board qualified to decide who gets a certificate? And, often colleges require degrees for teachers, and not certificates. For example, the dance instructors at Eastern Washington University have degrees in dance arts or ballet, or modern, etc. They might have some other kind of degree as well, for example theatre. Are there universities where these certificates have proven helpful and if so, which ones and under which programs are the instructors teaching? I know people who teach Middle Eastern dance under extended learning programs, but they do not need degrees or certificates much of the time and there is no class credit.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Rick Fink]

Hi A'isha,

Good questions. Let me cut and paste from the website to answer them.

__________________________________

Q. Who evaluates my application?

A. Three rotating certifiers who have been teaching a minimum of ten years each. The certifiers involved are dance teachers, studio owners, and seminar sponsors. It is this group of people who are the backbone of our dance community. They sponsor the seminars, reach out into the community, and train thousands of students each year.

Q. Are the certifiers or is NATCMED connected with any universities or colleges?

A. No. We are a professional organization whose purpose is to provide a service to skilled teachers within our dance community. Currently Middle Eastern Dance is taught in only a few colleges and universities as an accredited course and there are no majors in Middle Eastern Dance being offered anywhere. Like many other dance forms including classical Indian styles such as Bharatanatyam and Katak, as well Flamenco, Middle Eastern Dances genesis lies outside the academic world.
For those dancers who request it, NATCMED will look at their credentials and certify if they meet an objective standard within our dance community. The main purpose of certification is to provide documentation that is acceptable to colleges and universities.

Q. So in other words this is not a college degree?

A. Right. This is more like an aerobics teacher certification or a massage therapy certification.

Q. If I get certified can I then teach at a college or university?

A. A Middle Eastern Dance course would probably be in the dance department or the physical education department of a college. Each college and individual department would have its own criteria for teaching and it is likely that to teach Middle Eastern Dance you would have to be already teaching another course. A certification from NATCMED would provide the department head with the necessary documentation to for you to teach a MEDance course.

Q. Who are the certifiers and by what authority do they judge others?

A. All of the certifiers have long histories of accomplishment within our dance community. As most of them are sponsors they regularly exercise judgment over others. When a sponsor commits thousands of dollars to a seminar show and hires the featured dancer and instructor she makes a judgment call on that dancer. When she puts together the lineup for the show she makes judgment calls on the strength and skill of each dancer she allows into her show. The right to make these judgments is earned, not bestowed, by the hard work and money a sponsor puts into her event.
In the case of certification the certifiers simply make the judgment that the applicants meet the required standard or not.


__________________________________


Right now we have a rich and diverse scene worldwide and a huge number of teachers who could easily meet our criteria for certification. Our purpose is not to create a franchise or to dictate what the standards are for our scene. Our purpose is simply to provide the paperwork a skilled teacher needs so that she can teach at a college.

Take care, Rick

 

[Aisha Azar]

Certification

Dear Rick,
Thank you for the information.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Eshta]

I wish there was some better way of knowing that one teacher is a higher calibre than another than just showing up to their classes, but I know for sure that teacher qualifications in belly dance are not the way to make that judgement!

At least in the UK, when I see one teacher is 'x-qualified', all that tells me is which 'gang' they belong to. The best teachers I've had the experience of learning from have not been 'x-certified' teachers. And the worst ones I've learnt from have all belonged to one particular teacher training school. But again, that's not to say that everyone who has taken that course is a bad teacher - I know a couple that definitely aren't. But when I see that qualification it does put me off!

But if there was a course that was not driven purely by profit, but was a well-researched collaboration between highly respected dancers and teachers who have consulted beyond the dance when required, I would consider it. But at the moment, the most likely teacher training course I would attend would be the YMCA 'movement to music' course! Sad that an aerobics degree feels more relevant!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Certification

I wish there was some better way of knowing that one teacher is a higher calibre than another than just showing up to their classes, but I know for sure that teacher qualifications in belly dance are not the way to make that judgement!

At least in the UK, when I see one teacher is 'x-qualified', all that tells me is which 'gang' they belong to. The best teachers I've had the experience of learning from have not been 'x-certified' teachers. And the worst ones I've learnt from have all belonged to one particular teacher training school. But again, that's not to say that everyone who has taken that course is a bad teacher - I know a couple that definitely aren't. But when I see that qualification it does put me off!

But if there was a course that was not driven purely by profit, but was a well-researched collaboration between highly respected dancers and teachers who have consulted beyond the dance when required, I would consider it. But at the moment, the most likely teacher training course I would attend would be the YMCA 'movement to music' course! Sad that an aerobics degree feels more relevant!

Dear Eshta,
You put that quite succinctly!!I consider it to be the same here in the States.
I do a teacher training course, but I do not certify anyone. I think it has little relevance in our dance form.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Eshta]

Thank you A'isha!

Just out of interest, have any students of your teacher training course used it to promote themselves as teachers? How would/do you respond? It seems clear from the way you describe it that's it's intended solely for the benefit of the dancer/teacher and not as an accreditation of any sort but that would be hard to convey if a teacher says they have "been teaching x years and attended A'isha Azar's teacher training course", that implies you're accrediting them...

 

[Aisha Azar]

Certification

Thank you A'isha!

Just out of interest, have any students of your teacher training course used it to promote themselves as teachers? How would/do you respond? It seems clear from the way you describe it that's it's intended solely for the benefit of the dancer/teacher and not as an accreditation of any sort but that would be hard to convey if a teacher says they have "been teaching x years and attended A'isha Azar's teacher training course", that implies you're accrediting them...

Dear Eshta,
I do not know if this has ever happened or not. But, since you point out that it could, I might ask any person who would attend the course and use it as a marketing tool to mention that it is not accredited. The course is mainly to teach people how to teach concepts in the dance and to teach them how to look at students in order to ascertain whether or not they are understanding movement concepts and how to give positive corrections, etc. There is nothing to accredit as far as I am concerned. It is a course on how to make teaching about the student and the dance, which is a lot harder than it sounds!!
Regards,
A'isha