Female circumcision in Egypt

[Amulya]

Oddly enough, usually a lot of women can still enjoy having sex even after the clitoris is supposedly removed. They claim to still be able to have orgasms.

I doubt this, even if it was physically possible, such trauma would make a woman never want to have sex and because everything is so stitched up it is also painful. They have disgusting practises they perform after the wedding to make it able for the couple to have sex, the husband, imam, or sometimes even the womans own father (!) cuts open the vagina in order for the husband to have sex with her. Or they tear it open with their fingers. Just so disgusting

The Gilded Serpent had an article on this topic: Lilly wirtes of FGM for the Gilded Serpent

 

[Aisha Azar]

Circumcision

I doubt this, even if it was physically possible, such trauma would make a woman never want to have sex and because everything is so stitched up it is also painful. They have disgusting practises they perform after the wedding to make it able for the couple to have sex, the husband, imam, or sometimes even the womans own father (!) cuts open the vagina in order for the husband to have sex with her. Or they tear it open with their fingers. Just so disgusting

The Gilded Serpent had an article on this topic: Lilly wirtes of FGM for the Gilded Serpent

Dear Amulya,
I am only telling you what women who have lived with the practice have told me. I will not argue with them about it and it is not up to me to tell them whether or not they can enjoy themselves. they would know better than me.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Didi]

This is so horrible, it makes me despair for our world. Why would we do this to each other?? What reason could possibly justify mutilating someone else's body? And yes, even male circumcision seems like mutilation to me. We are a sick, sick species...

 

[Amulya]

It is very sick, can't believe someone ever came up with the idea . Both for females and males it's just wrong.

 

[Zorba]

They have disgusting practises they perform after the wedding to make it able for the couple to have sex, the husband, imam, or sometimes even the womans own father (!) cuts open the vagina in order for the husband to have sex with her. Or they tear it open with their fingers. Just so disgusting

Oh, ICK, ICK, ICK, ICKKKK!!!!!! rotest:

Poor things!

Tangental question: What is so darned sacred about virginity anyways?

 

[Zurah]

Virginity

Good question… my personal thought is that behind all that has been made of a woman's virginity through the ages is the fact many men are irrationally intolerant of comparisons, plain and simple, but I know someone out there can offer a much better explanation of this… I’d love to hear more on the subject myself.

BTW, I’d like to add another source to check out re female circumcision – Gloria Steinem has a great essay on this in her book ‘Outrageous Acts and Everyday Rebellions’.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Virginity, etc.

Good question… my personal thought is that behind all that has been made of a woman's virginity through the ages is the fact many men are irrationally intolerant of comparisons, plain and simple, but I know someone out there can offer a much better explanation of this… I’d love to hear more on the subject myself.

BTW, I’d like to add another source to check out re female circumcision – Gloria Steinem has a great essay on this in her book ‘Outrageous Acts and Everyday Rebellions’.

Dear Zurah,
Not all societies are hung up on virginity like those that stem from Hebrew, Christian and Islamic roots. In some societies, people have sex with many partners and it is not a big deal. Polygyny is practised in Tibet. Among some Celtic groups, it was common for a woman to have sex before marriage to make sure she was fertile. It was also common among some societies for a woman to get married, but also have sex with the Lord of the manor where she lived, though she might be married to a serf. This was a condition of ownership. I think that the issue of virginity comes down to ownership more than comparison. Incest was common among certain cultures, including the Hawaiins and Egyptian royalty, not to mention isolated groups in just about every country in the world. This speaks to me of ownership more than comparison.
In most societies in the past and some today, women were and are a commodity. Virginity in patriarchal societies means that ownership of body is not completely the woman's. Virginity and insistence on fidelity also mean that when the woman gives birth, a man can be sure that he is supporting his own children and not someone else's. This is also about ownership.
This is all my opinion, but I think it is pretty supported by facts.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Kharmine]

Good question… my personal thought is that behind all that has been made of a woman's virginity through the ages is the fact many men are irrationally intolerant of comparisons, plain and simple, but I know someone out there can offer a much better explanation of this… I’d love to hear more on the subject myself...

I formally began calling myself a feminist when I entered college, and soon became intrigued by the claims of some feminists about ancient matriarchies, goddess religions and the effect of patriarchal societies on women's lives. Did a lot of research then and continue to do so, as well as have a wide acquaintance among people of many religions and cultures, including pagan, who give me more resources to look up and things to chew on.

What we know so far: From ancient times and across the world, virginity for both men and women was, and has been, considered a choice, an act of preserving one's independence and bodily integrity, of reserving the power of sexual energy for something more spiritually and/or intellectually important.

But even when it wasn't a choice, virginity was considered something of a sacred, if not magical, quality which is one important reason why children of both genders were sacrificed in some pagan cultures, including the Middle East. Virgins of both genders were sought after for rituals (sacrificial or not) in pagan societies from Celtic to meso-American.

There were also many adults from ancient times on who voluntarily remained virgin to keep or gain something they believed was more important. I have read that some male Roman intellectuals actually underwent some sort of procedure so they wouldn't ejaculate because they feared losing some of their mental capacities whenever they did.

(Weirdly enough, men feared losing their "essence" to predatory females who would drain them with too much sex all the way into 20th century America! That's the real meaning behind a "vamp" a la Theda Bara.)

It's a feature in several religions that at least one goddess is a perennial virgin for the power that supposedly gave her, such as Kali in Hinduism, Athena in the Greco/Roman religion, and Queen Maya in Buddhism.

And then, of course, there were always consecrated religious virgins -- from the temple virgins of Greece and Rome to Tibetan monks -- those who are celibate in order to better dedicate themselves and the energies that would otherwise go to a sexual partner.

So it can be said that in many societies where sex is not considered merely an act of pleasure or procreation, virginity has a sacred, even magical, quality that is actually considered desirable and powerful.

Preserving virginity, encouraging celibacy and putting limits on sex are not just some killjoy "hang-ups" fostered by patriarchal Judeo/Christian/Islamic societies to control people, particularly women.

All good things can be misunderstood and distorted to serve someone's selfish purpose as we see not only with the ancient examples of human sacrifice but even today with the old, continuing practices of restricting women's sexuality to control the lineage of male inheritance laws and placate male vanity.

Put a "religious" face on those practices, and it's still about human selfishness and ignorance.

If anyone's interested about the ancient origins of reverence for virginity and which religions practice circumcision and why, I can recommend a couple of web sites to start:

Wicca For The Rest of Us
Wicca: For the Rest of Us

Belief.net
-- Beliefnet.com

 

[MiaMi]

They do such things in parts of Africa as well. Most young girls are subjected to this at a very early age. It is to prevent them from being raped, and from the spread of aids.

 

[Zurah]

Interesting! Thank you A'isha and Kharmine for the info.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Virginity, etc.

Dear Zurah,
I though you might be interested in this as well.
In both the Islamic and Christian cultures, among Arabs, virginity has a high value. So much so that even when a woman loses her virginity because she is raped, she loses value and if people find out about it, then she loses her value as a commodity to the family and to the community. In other words, a woman who has been raped will suffer because no one will want to marry her. Usually rapes and child predatory acts are kept secret in Arab countries
(much as they were here in the U.S. until about 40-50 years ago). As one of my Saudi women friends said to me once, in Saudi Arabia if there is a rape, it is always considered to be the woman's fault, since she somehow allowed herself to be alone with a man.
What it says in the Qur'an about sexual activity and its punishments: Adultryis punished by death. If two people are having sex who are not married, they are publicly beaten, not killed. This should apply to both sexes, but as in Christianity and Judaism, it is usually NOT okay for the woman, but somehow more forgiveable in the man, who often is allowed to have sex with servants, wives more than one, and other sexual outlets. Usually the man in the stories in these three religions, is the one pursued by the women. For example, the guy in the Bible that did his three daughters was tempted by THEM. He, the poor innocent man had nothing to do with it. Or that bitch Delilah who did terrible things to Sampson. ( David is the only one I can think of who actually pursued a woman and the moral of the story there seems to be don't screw over your male friends). In Islam it is the woman who can not control her sexual appetites, not the man who has more than one wife, slaves, etc.

I should also add that much of what we think of as Islamic, is also true for Christians in Arab lands. For example, everyone covers their hair for modesty, everyone values virginity. Cousins marraiges are considered ideal because the value of the female is kept in the family and because this strengthens the overall value of the group and keeps all the other assets in the family. Everyone often has the same dietary restrictions whether, Moslem, Jew or Christian.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Moon]

f two people are having sex who are not married, they are publicly beaten, not killed. This should apply to both sexes, but as in Christianity and Judaism, it is usually NOT okay for the woman, but somehow more forgiveable in the man, who often is allowed to have sex with servants, wives more than one, and other sexual outlets.

I always wonder if this has something to do with the fact it is harder to "check" for verginity on men than on women, or am I wrong? I've read they sometimes check if the girl's virginity membrane is still intact before she's going to marry. However, some girls don't have a clear virginity membrane or it's already damaged due to tampon usage etc. Imagine how horrible it is when no-one wants to believe you're still a virgin because they can't find an intact virginity membrane :shok:.

As one of my Saudi women friends said to me once, in Saudi Arabia if there is a rape, it is always considered to be the woman's fault, since she somehow allowed herself to be alone with a man.

I read a (real happened) story once about an Iranian woman who ended up in jail because she had American movies at home. She met a young, pregnant girl there who was sent to jail because she was raped. The man who raped her only had to pay a small amount of money as punishment rotest:

 

[Kharmine]

Moon, I agree -- it's a lot easier to ascertain a woman's virginity than it is a guy's, that certainly may have influenced things!

Societies that converted from old ways to new religions frequently brought over customs that their descendants kept up even when they didn't know why, or wrongly assumed they had always been part of now established religion. You can see that in Christianity which sometimes celebrates what were originally pagan holidays or incorporates some pagan traditions. But it's also true of other religions.

I've sometimes wondered if the custom of scarring young female virgins' genitals did not originate as an attempt to protect them from being considered worthy as human sacrifice. We know that when animal sacrifice in temples, whether pagan or Jewish, was common that the offered animal was supposed to be perfectly formed, perfectly healthy and unscarred. But that's just speculation on my part.

Anyway, even with all the historical research available today we can be completely flummoxed by ancient narratives that make little or no sense because they originated in a world with completely different cultures. The old you-had-to-be-there thing.

The narratives don't always go into a lot of detail because the writers of the time didn't think it was needed -- they didn't think of themselves as writing for the ages!

Very, very often what happened in patriarchal societies is that socially privileged men came to be the only ones who were literate, let alone learned in the written religious texts, and therefore more powerful than women and more menial classes who couldn't read the texts for themselves.

Knowledge is certainly power, and as women were gradually restricted or outright excluded from the educated and priestly castes, male religious leaders controlled the interpretation and application of religious teaching. Many of these leaders, consciously or not, decided things that were really matters of personal bias were the will of the gods or God and imposed them on the rest of their community. (That sound familiar?)

And when religion goes from being a matter of strict independent conscience and becomes a tool for controlling people it actually stops being religion and is really politics.

It's important to know the difference. It's just as wrong to blame religious teachings that may have nothing to do with the politics, as it is to confuse the two and claim divine favor in politics!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Virginity

I always wonder if this has something to do with the fact it is harder to "check" for verginity on men than on women, or am I wrong? I've read they sometimes check if the girl's virginity membrane is still intact before she's going to marry. However, some girls don't have a clear virginity membrane or it's already damaged due to tampon usage etc. Imagine how horrible it is when no-one wants to believe you're still a virgin because they can't find an intact virginity membrane :shok:.


I read a (real happened) story once about an Iranian woman who ended up in jail because she had American movies at home. She met a young, pregnant girl there who was sent to jail because she was raped. The man who raped her only had to pay a small amount of money as punishment rotest:

Dear Moon,
Considering the lengths that one had to go through to check or assure virginity in females over the last few thousand years, I think it would be just as easy to design a similar methods for males and probably something that was just as obvious could have been devised many times. For example, a chastity belt would work just as well form men as for women. I still believe that the whole virginity issue has more to do with ownership than any other thing. When one looks at customs among Arabs, one sees that the honor of the family, community, etc, is on the behavior of the women. This means that if she steps outside the boundaries of what is considered good, for example by having a broken hymen, than she has disgraced her whole damn world!!! I would consider this to be a huge responsibility that is drummed into girls from the time they can remember... but not so much boys. It is customary at the birth of a son, to celebrate far and wide and loud, with a special kind of cake, etc. At the birth of a daughter,not so much. Bedouin used to bury their baby girls in the sand while they were still alive!!
The virginity issue is one part of a much larger picture of devaluation of female except as a commodity. I think this is one reason why belly dancers are so wonderful! In a cultures where their behavior is considered truly trashy, they keep on keeping on and they make the very weapon that is used against them, their femaleness, their ultimate tool for success. What could be more awesome!! BTW, a Jewish friend of mine tells me of a Hebrew prayer that men say, thanking God for not making them women. Now, there's a good does of reality for you!!
Religion, being a human based philosophy in all cases, will often very much reflect the values of the culture from which it springs. It is pretty easy to trace many traditions back to some sensible concept, such as the Islamic mandate against drinking alcohol, which causes dehydration, a big no no in desert living. It is also pretty easy to see that some traditions have no value other than that of controlling parts of the population. Often that part is women.
In looking at Islam in specifics, we could really, on some levels say that Mohammed ( Peace be on him) was one of the first feminists. He granted women rights of property ownership and the right to buy and sell their own stuff, acknowledged the need for and right to equal education with men, whittled a limitless number of wives down to four at a time, and mandated that women should inherit from their fathers, though to a lesser degree than their brothers. These were huge steps in many cases.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[unaneyia]

female genital circumcision in egypt

hey everyone,
this is a very interesting topic u have brought up and unfortunately i can confirm the fact that female genital circumcision is still practiced as we speak .. i live in cairo and there was a report on Al Ahram newspaper just two days ago on the death of a 12 years old girl during the spesific practice.
Even though it's been banned for the past 12 years it is still taking place in many villages around the country ... Lets just hope that this ordeal will soon come to an end ...
greetings from the land of the pharaohs
"cause when u dance ur not just a wqoman but you're the dance it self"

 

[nicknack]

Aisha that particular Hebrew prayer has something to do with the comandment to go forth and multiply......it harkens back to the times of polygamy, and has to do with the man being able to spread his seed far and wide...ewwwwwwww ew ew that's just nasty.......and really shouldn't apply today (as other practices don't apply, we have to move with the times you know), but the prayer is part of the orthodox morning prayer (the women say "bless god for doing me as he wished"). We all think that they really should lighten up a bit.

If the Torah wasn't editied by men, there would be a lot more mention of great Hebrew women, like Sarah, Miriam, Deborah, Ruth, Esther, The Daughters of Tzlofchad, Rivkah, Leah......if you look at the story of the golden calf and also of the 12 spies the women made none of the mistakes. It's always the men who just won't listen and take directions......some things never change.

But back to the original topic, anyone who wants to know more should read the biography of Warris Dirie, and her subsequent books (she does give grim first hand accounts of the practice).

 

[Shanazel]

...and then there is my personal favorite: the prayer in which a man thanks God for not making him be born a woman.

 

[nicknack]

...and then there is my personal favorite: the prayer in which a man thanks God for not making him be born a woman.

It's because they're lazy and don't like all the hard jobs of defeating Assyrian generals, giving birth, and asking for directions.....Let's just ask who beheaded Holofernes....was it a man....no it wasn't.....

 

[Ranya]

...and then there is my personal favorite: the prayer in which a man thanks God for not making him be born a woman.

Haha, yep, that is my "favorite" too...however, some people (man, orthodox) I know take this too too seriously...scary.

 

[Ranya]

Oh, and just to add...male circumcision is sometimes necessary as the foreskin is the ideal place for some bacteria. my best friend`s little brother had to have his removed and they are neither jewish nor muslim. female circumcision is NEVER necessary - that`s an obvious difference.
I do not claim that male circumcision is fantastic, but I think it can in no way be compared to FGM, and I don`t say it because I am a woman. All of my circumcised friends (males) think the same.