Female circumcision in Egypt

[Shanazel]

It's because they're lazy and don't like all the hard jobs of defeating Assyrian generals, giving birth, and asking for directions.....Let's just ask who beheaded Holofernes....was it a man....no it wasn't.....

:lol::lol:

 

[Aisha Azar]

Circumcision, etc.

Dear Nicknack,

Thanks for filling us in on the context of the prayer. My Jewish friend stated that this is still said by certain Jews (Hassidim, maybe???). She had stated also that it is a morning prayer,but did not tell me the other info. As a Jewish woman, she is highly offended by the prayer and thinks that although the basic message of the three major monotheistic religions is positive, much of the patriarchal stuff is garbage. Of course, my father inlaw's twin sister is a nun and she feels the same about Catholicism. Having been raised Catholic and spent way too much time in Catholic schools, I would have to agree. Out of 8 children, one of my sisters is still very devout.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[nicknack]

It exists in all Orthodox liturgy....although it's only really the orthodox who pray three times a day who use it, and they just say it as part of the course without meaning....there are probably Haredi (unlra orthodox) who believe what they're saying but they're in the minority.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Curcumcision, etc.

It exists in all Orthodox liturgy....although it's only really the orthodox who pray three times a day who use it, and they just say it as part of the course without meaning....there are probably Haredi (unlra orthodox) who believe what they're saying but they're in the minority.

Dear Nicknack,
I think I am a little confused.... why would anyone pray without meaning...???
Regards,
A'isha

 

[nicknack]

The piece in question is an intergrated part on the morning prayers established long ago and comprising of many small parts. Unlike the progressive movments the Orthodox authority does not go cutting and changing the prayer structure, which means this one reference stays even though not everyone agrees with it......hence the lip service....not to the morning prayers as a whole, just to one of its tiny building blocks.

 

[Kharmine]

The piece in question is an intergrated part on the morning prayers established long ago and comprising of many small parts. Unlike the progressive movments the Orthodox authority does not go cutting and changing the prayer structure, which means this one reference stays even though not everyone agrees with it......hence the lip service....not to the morning prayers as a whole, just to one of its tiny building blocks.

Nicknack, is this basically one of those times when no one knows for sure why it originated and what it really means?

 

[Aisha Azar]

Prayer

The piece in question is an intergrated part on the morning prayers established long ago and comprising of many small parts. Unlike the progressive movments the Orthodox authority does not go cutting and changing the prayer structure, which means this one reference stays even though not everyone agrees with it......hence the lip service....not to the morning prayers as a whole, just to one of its tiny building blocks.

Dear Nicknack,
I could very well not be understanding something here, because I am not Jewish, but from what I can tell from years of religion classes in school, and from taking university religion courses, monotheistic gods are usually very into having people pray to them in all seriousness and that all prayer must have meaning, not to be taken lightly. Even gods like the Hebrew god, who acknowledges other gods exist, wants people to pray to him in certain ways, at certain times, with certain rituals, and accept him as the head god, the only one to be prayed to. All of it must have meaning, and in the Christian Bible, there is a penalty for messing around with the word of God, which is what they claim all of the Bible to be....?????
Is it different in Judaism? Are the people allowed to decide which prayers have meaning and which do not? I know that at the Nicene Council, a bunch of guys got together and decided that Jesus was divine, what books would make up the Bible and what ones would be tossed out, the status of Mary, etc. Later was also the protestant reformation, and other changes that affected celibacy of the priesthood, dispensation for sins, divorce, etc, etc. I take it the Jewish religion has gone through the same thing??
Regardless, it would seem that any god would want all prayers to him/her/it to have meaning...
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Amulya]

I always wonder if this has something to do with the fact it is harder to "check" for verginity on men than on women, or am I wrong? I've read they sometimes check if the girl's virginity membrane is still intact before she's going to marry. However, some girls don't have a clear virginity membrane or it's already damaged due to tampon usage etc. Imagine how horrible it is when no-one wants to believe you're still a virgin because they can't find an intact virginity membrane :shok:.

The whole thing about the hymnen is a hoax. Gynacologists today say that all women have some sort of a membrane (more like a ridge) but it STAYS after having sex, no matter how much sex she has. So the idea of a hymnen rupturing and disappearing is not true. You can look up info on this on the net.

They do such things in parts of Africa as well. Most young girls are subjected to this at a very early age. It is to prevent them from being raped, and from the spread of aids.

How would it prevent rape and spread of aids?

 

[Amulya]

and mandated that women should inherit from their fathers, though to a lesser degree than their brothers. These were huge steps in many cases.

That was something that has been put in later in the Koran, in early Korans it was said daughters inherit as much as sons. There was a study done on this, it came roughly down on that there was a greedy guy who didn't want his sister to inherit as much as he did, and there was also something to do with being in power, so he changed the Koran. Don't know where to look this up, the study was done by a Moroccain lady.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Women, etc.

That was something that has been put in later in the Koran, in early Korans it was said daughters inherit as much as sons. There was a study done on this, it came roughly down on that there was a greedy guy who didn't want his sister to inherit as much as he did, and there was also something to do with being in power, so he changed the Koran. Don't know where to look this up, the study was done by a Moroccain lady.

Dear Amulya,
interesting... I have not heard about that. I know there are different interpretations by different imams, and lots of room for dispute, just as with Christian Bible. Can you find more info on it? The reality is that inheritance laws don't matter in many cases, just like here. For example, King Fahad of Saudi Arabia left most of his real property to one son, though he has many more children.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Kharmine]

That was something that has been put in later in the Koran, in early Korans it was said daughters inherit as much as sons. There was a study done on this, it came roughly down on that there was a greedy guy who didn't want his sister to inherit as much as he did, and there was also something to do with being in power, so he changed the Koran. Don't know where to look this up, the study was done by a Moroccain lady.

There's a lot of history about Islam available in books and on the Internet, and. of course, it's always worth talking to people of the Muslim faith, but you have to know a little real history before taking what some of these sources say at face value. And these days, one should use discretion in whom we talk to because for some people just raising questions is challenging their beliefs, if not an outright offense (and we can certainly say this about zealots of all faiths at different times).

Muslims of different sects will often insist that the Koran they use is the one-and-only authoritative text that came down unchanged through Mohammad, but there's a couple of problems with that.

First: There are actually at least two official versions and one unofficial version of the Koran today as the result of different oral histories and parts of the written transmission coming down through several people -- and compiled long after Mohammad's death. (Even Muslim scholars debate whether he was literate enough to actually write down some of his revelations, or if he dictated different parts at different times to several scribes.)

Second: The power struggle over who was supposed to succeed Mohammad resulted in the big major split of Sunnis vs. Shiites. So at least one version of the Koran today removes all mention of Ali, Mohammad's son-in-law, because he was the losing contender for leadership after the prophet died. (A very good example of how the conquerors get to rewrite history.) But it was also politics that led succeeding leaders to impose not only their interpretation of the approved version of the Koran, whichever one it was, but also their interpretation of non-Koranic but still sacred writings, over the years as it suited them.

You can see today that the political impact on the interpretation of Islam is actually changing the Islamic culture in other countries. Radical imams who are more inclined to the harsher Arabic interpretations are influencing Muslims to change even in those countries such as Indonesia and Malaysia where the Arabic culture is foreign, and strict veiling and female circumcision were not traditional practices.

Again, there are a lot of good sources for reading up and verifying statements and claims, and I encourage people to do some research on their own. I got basic info through a comparative religions class, have done a lot of reading since then, and had a bunch of Muslim friends from college (I went to a school with a strong agriculture and irrigation-engineering program that attracted many people from Iran, Malaysia, etc.) whom I was able to get into interesting discussions despite the fact that we were of different faiths.

These days, I dunno, it's very polarized. Like I said, sometimes just asking questions makes some people bristle, and they sure don't want to hear of any history that contradicts their political beliefs!

 

[nicknack]

Aisha G-d is not all about praise....prayer is a structure put in place for our benifit, praying does not a good Jew make. What makes a good Jew is following commandments of the Torah, there are 613. This brings me to a second point: Judaism is not all or nothing, it is constantly evolving and moving with the modern world...out of those 613 commandments there are quite a few which are now irrelevent or or which don't apply (the parts pertaining to the temple, everyday actions etc)...these commandments have also moved with the times, for example the commandment to not create a spark (make fire) on the sabbath now extends to operating all things electric (this however does not apply to the progressive movement who all got together and agreed that they disagreed with this concept). So it is quite simple to skim over one section...The Torah (the one part of the whole ball of wax which is revered as the word of G-d (you'll know it as books Genesis through to Deutronomy)) was meant to be interpreted....we have various lengthy volumes (the Talmud) written comentating on what relevance Jewish law had at the time. There are still lengthy debates over service structure and the like. What you must understand is that prayer services are sourced from many places....from the Torah (word of G-d) to the words and poems of Rabbis.

Just to correct you, G-d does not acknolwedge the existence any other gods, it is the main building block of Judaism and is stated in the first lines of the Shema (which is recited twice a day) "Hear o Israel the Lord is our G-d, the Lord is One". What is acknowledged however is the prescence of false gods.


I think a wise man in the 1st century summed it up well when he said "What is hateful to thyself do not do to another. That is the whole Torah, the rest is just Commentary.”

 

[Amulya]

interesting... I have not heard about that. I know there are different interpretations by different imams, and lots of room for dispute, just as with Christian Bible. Can you find more info on it? The reality is that inheritance laws don't matter in many cases, just like here. For example, King Fahad of Saudi Arabia left most of his real property to one son, though he has many more children.

I read it in a magazine long ago, so I don't remember which one it was. I do remember that it was a Moroccain lady (a muslim herself) who did this study.

 

[Aisha Azar]

God, etc.

Aisha G-d is not all about praise....prayer is a structure put in place for our benifit, praying does not a good Jew make. What makes a good Jew is following commandments of the Torah, there are 613. This brings me to a second point: Judaism is not all or nothing, it is constantly evolving and moving with the modern world...out of those 613 commandments there are quite a few which are now irrelevent or or which don't apply (the parts pertaining to the temple, everyday actions etc)...these commandments have also moved with the times, for example the commandment to not create a spark (make fire) on the sabbath now extends to operating all things electric (this however does not apply to the progressive movement who all got together and agreed that they disagreed with this concept). So it is quite simple to skim over one section...The Torah (the one part of the whole ball of wax which is revered as the word of G-d (you'll know it as books Genesis through to Deutronomy)) was meant to be interpreted....we have various lengthy volumes (the Talmud) written comentating on what relevance Jewish law had at the time. There are still lengthy debates over service structure and the like. What you must understand is that prayer services are sourced from many places....from the Torah (word of G-d) to the words and poems of Rabbis.

Just to correct you, G-d does not acknolwedge the existence any other gods, it is the main building block of Judaism and is stated in the first lines of the Shema (which is recited twice a day) "Hear o Israel the Lord is our G-d, the Lord is One". What is acknowledged however is the prescence of false gods.


I think a wise man in the 1st century summed it up well when he said "What is hateful to thyself do not do to another. That is the whole Torah, the rest is just Commentary.”

Dear Nicknack,
I am not Jewish and there is a lot that I do not know about Judaism. I do understand that men make rules about what they say God wants according to their time and place. I am interested in who decides what is relevant and what is not. As a person who was raised Roman Catholic, I finally had to reject that religion as having had way too many people deciding what God means as what they want God to mean. I consider religion to be a social structure as much as a spiritual one.
Re God not saying there are other Gods. What does this commandment read in Hebrew??
"I am the Lord thy God, thous shalt not have strange Gods before me." In religion class, I learned that God did indeed acknowledge other gods, but that He insisted on complete loyalty to himself only. In several places in the Old Testament, he is seen talking with other gods about his human creations, being worried about them getting gnosis ( tree of knowledge of good and evil) and no longer being innocent, etc. If I remember correctly, is not the Old Testament part of Torah? ( I could be mistaken. It is years since I studied religion.)
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions and queries. It is good to have an understanding of religions. I am a Pantheist and believe that each of us seeks God in our own way, as we are meant to do, and that each of us plays a part in who and what God is.
I noticed that you leave out the middle letter in the word. I THINK in the Bible somewhere there is a statement about not saying the name?? In our conversations would that be more appropriate on both our parts?
Regards,
A'isha

 

[nicknack]

First of all the "Old Testament" is not part of Torah..Torah is part of the old testament a term in itself which is derogatory, due to the fact that it implies the entire Hebrew bible (Tanakh) is somehow inncorrect.

What is relevant depends on our situation, it's a matter of common sense, if there is something in this day and age that needs a footnote or needs redefining, there will be a very lengthy very involved debate involving many prominent Rabbis, and everyone who wants to voice an opinion will inevitably do so...Although this ruling will not apply to eveyone there are those that have broken away from Otrhodox Judaism (Conservatives, Reform, Liberal, Reconstructionists), there is a long established sect (I've heard some reside in Egypt), who completly disregard Rabbinical Judaism, they only follow the laws layed down in the Torah.

I would need an exact reference to give a detailed explanation, but the overall gist is that G-d is the creator, every being divine, and mortal came from Him, He could have conversations with lesser beings of his creation that are worshipped AS gods. There is a place in the book of Jobe where satan appears and questions G-d, in contradiction to everything else written, but this an allegory, it's more of an excuse why people get bad treatment from above despite them being good by G-d's and man's standards.

The reason many of us write G-d is long and complicated....the short explanation is that the written name deserves respect, and should never be written down lightly in case it is mis treated.....it's become habit for most. You're right about not saying G-ds name (he has several, one of which which I'm not going to mention here, although you can hear it pop up if you watch The Life of Brian (now that was funny)), instead of using the name of G-d we refer to Him as "Adonai" (Lord), "Hashem" (the name), "Elo Hai" (living G-d) and its relations such as "Elohim", "Eloheinu"........

 

[Aisha Azar]

Relgion, etc

First of all the "Old Testament" is not part of Torah..Torah is part of the old testament a term in itself which is derogatory, due to the fact that it implies the entire Hebrew bible (Tanakh) is somehow inncorrect.

What is relevant depends on our situation, it's a matter of common sense, if there is something in this day and age that needs a footnote or needs redefining, there will be a very lengthy very involved debate involving many prominent Rabbis, and everyone who wants to voice an opinion will inevitably do so...Although this ruling will not apply to eveyone there are those that have broken away from Otrhodox Judaism (Conservatives, Reform, Liberal, Reconstructionists), there is a long established sect (I've heard some reside in Egypt), who completly disregard Rabbinical Judaism, they only follow the laws layed down in the Torah.

I would need an exact reference to give a detailed explanation, but the overall gist is that G-d is the creator, every being divine, and mortal came from Him, He could have conversations with lesser beings of his creation that are worshipped AS gods. There is a place in the book of Jobe where satan appears and questions G-d, in contradiction to everything else written, but this an allegory, it's more of an excuse why people get bad treatment from above despite them being good by G-d's and man's standards.

The reason many of us write G-d is long and complicated....the short explanation is that the written name deserves respect, and should never be written down lightly in case it is mis treated.....it's become habit for most. You're right about not saying G-ds name (he has several, one of which which I'm not going to mention here, although you can hear it pop up if you watch The Life of Brian (now that was funny)), instead of using the name of G-d we refer to Him as "Adonai" (Lord), "Hashem" (the name), "Elo Hai" (living G-d) and its relations such as "Elohim", "Eloheinu"........

Dear Nicknack,
Thanks for taking the time to explain. ( I remembered that Torah and Old Testament had something to do with one another, just not how.)
Interesting how passages about God/Gods, how it can be interpreted in so many ways. Catholicism also acknowledges only one god, but if you talk to individual priests, they have many different ways of interpreting that "We" in the Old Testament. Gnostics considered that God was father/mother/son, and later the Church changed all three aspects of God into masculine elements. In fact I know Jesuits who reject the divinity of Jesus, but consider themselves to still be Christians.
Muslims believe that God has 100 names and that humans may know 99 of them.
Again, thank you for sharing. I feel that I understand your points better now.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Suheir]

BBC news story about FGM: BBC NEWS | Health | 'My mother held me down'