Newbie question

[chryssanthi sahar]

. To every gay guys who want to hide their sexuality please get a girl friend or wife. Believe me its easier and no body will ask you a question. And if you manage to get somebody like Nicole Kidman or Liza Menneli , Well you scored a good one.

Well this is a possibility, but maybe those guys should be at least bisexual, otherwise it would be unfair towards the wives or girlfriends:think:. Except if they are lesbian:lol: But seriously now, I think the best for gay guys is just to accept their homosexuality and stand for it. Except if they live in very suppressive societies, where you are in life danger, when people find out that you are gay (like in some Muslim countries. Or maybe in some very conservative ares in the US). But even my gay friends in Cairo wouldn't ever marry just to conceal their sexual preferences.

 

[Shanazel]

Easier for whom? Poor girlfriend, stuck with a guy who doesn't dig women. Poor guy, too, trying to get by with a girl instead of another guy. Oh what tangled webs we weave...

 

[Zorba]

Also I have found its the gay guys who is more worried about their sexuality than straight guys.

YES!

I've found that gay guys tend to be the ones who most want to enforce a strait jacket version of "masculinity", be it in dance, dress, life, or whatever. I have some theories that are probably not politically correct - I'll have to bounce them off of a gay friend and see what he says.

 

[Zardoz]

I have only known one gay guy in my life (By known I don’t mean “Hey how you doing?” kind of known. I mean show-up-at-his-house-anytime-of-day-with-a-12-pack-and-get-the-drinking-on kind of known) and he never seemed self conscious about his masculinity or lack there of. Maybe he is the exception to the rule though. Hes gonna flip when I talk to him next and tell him Im doing this.

 

[Dev]

Hey Zardoz, martial arts and belly dance don't exclude each other. I am such a "martial" woman, I've been exercising different martial arts for about 10 years and I would have loved to go on, .

My god Chryssanthi. You are quite a lady.:shok: I have to be all padded up when I meet you, .

Well this is a possibility, but maybe those guys should be at least bisexual, otherwise it would be unfair towards the wives or girlfriends. Except if they are lesbian But seriously now, I think the best for gay guys is just to accept their homosexuality and stand for it.

Lol. Chryssanthi there are a lot of relationships out there which is probably unusual compare to what we call normal.I was watching a programm on SBS, a free to air channel which broadcasts probably the most controversial and sometimes absolutely bizzare stories. Anyway it was called Post modern family. One gay, one bisexual and a straight women lived together for 15 years . The bisexual guy left the relationship after 13 years . The gay guy is still living with the straight women because they had 2 babbies while they all slept together. But i do understand what you mean . My comments meant to be a joke.

 

[MyCapoeira]

Most male dancers are perceived as gay, and in reality, the majority of them usually are. However, that shouldn't stop you from doing what you love. I too had questions about this when I came to the board. I practice capoeira and I wanted to learn bellydancing. I have been practicing for about a month or two now, and I love it. I have never had a problem with anyone yet, but im sure I will hear it sooner or later, I just don't care. I have a girlfriend and shes what matters to me, not people who think im gay.

 

[Dev]

Easier for whom? Poor girlfriend, stuck with a guy who doesn't dig women. Poor guy, too, trying to get by with a girl instead of another guy. Oh what tangled webs we weave...

:lol: I meant easier to find a girl.

 

[Shanazel]

:think: Easier for a gay guy to find a girlfriend than a boyfriend? Why would he want to do that? Never mind- I think I have lost track of this conversation. Back to lurking.

 

[Dev]

Shanazel the comments I made in my previous post was a joke. In any case gay guys(or lesbian ) getting married is not a new thing. I mentioned Liza Menneli because her husband Peter Ellen was gay. Rock hudson I believe he was married. And Elton John .....Many gay guys(not all) get married or find a GF because its easier for them to live in a society with a woman than man.

 

[Sharif]

And now for something completely different...

Seriously, Zardoz:
Just join a belly class and see if you like it enough to put in the time. Don't worry about outside perceptions, it's not important and people will talk anyway. It's better to know what they are talking about! In fact, we need more straight guys to join, to bring the balance more to the 1:20 gays we have in society.
It has never been a problem for me in terms of harassment, and in general the women who overwhelming populate this dance are very welcoming of men who want to study it seriously (and are not there mainly to hit on them).

You'll have even more fun doing this together with your wife - you can study together and help each other in ways that other dancers can't. And although this is not a couple's dance by any stretch of the imagination, there are good opportunities for duets, and people love those. One of my teachers, Kamaal, remarked that you cannot overdo it with the affection in a male-female duet, and I think he's right. No matter how revoltingly sweet you try to make it, people will eat it up and love it! :lol:

Good luck, and hope to see you two on a stage together soon!

 

[Shanazel]

Shanazel the comments I made in my previous post was a joke. In any case gay guys(or lesbian ) getting married is not a new thing. I mentioned Liza Menneli because her husband Peter Ellen was gay. Rock hudson I believe he was married. And Elton John .....Many gay guys(not all) get married or find a GF because its easier for them to live in a society with a woman than man.

Ah, Shanazel's failure to know anything about cultural icons strikes again. Joke now perceived. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Zorba]

Ah, Shanazel's failure to know anything about cultural icons strikes again. Joke now perceived. Thanks for the explanation.

Don't feel bad Shanazel, I don't know much about pop culture either. I consider myself on top of things because I know who Paula Abdul and Heather Locklear are - and would LOVE to go on a date with either or both of them! :clap:

 

[Tarik Sultan]

On second thought, best to delete ballroom dancers and Irish step dancers from the list of "dancers generally not considered gay.":think:

I was abouty to say...

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I have only known one gay guy in my life (By known I don’t mean “Hey how you doing?” kind of known. I mean show-up-at-his-house-anytime-of-day-with-a-12-pack-and-get-the-drinking-on kind of known) and he never seemed self conscious about his masculinity or lack there of. Maybe he is the exception to the rule though. Hes gonna flip when I talk to him next and tell him Im doing this.

Okay, I'll be just as blunt, but respectful in regards to this issue. The performance version of this dance is based on the social dance done throughout the Middle East and North Africa, but primarily in Egypt. Everyone does it, male and female, just the way Brazilians do Samba or Latinos do Salsa.

As far as professional dancing, its perceived as being a woman's job, primarily because most performers are women. This fact has nothing to do with the cultural reality as much as it does with ther comercial developement of the dance in the late 19th and early 20th century, as well as social conventions.

Dance and music is considered a low class profession. Women who do it are considered at best, too poor and uneducated to do anything else for a living, at worse prostitutes. Because its considered a low prestige profession, men for the most part stayed away from it, unless they were poor, orphans, or social outcasts. In Turkey at one time all public dancers were male, however, once they had saved up enough money, they retired, got married and opened up respectable businesses.

In the late 19th century the tradition of male dancers began to die out as the societies became more westernized. The tourist trade began to exert itself and since the majority of the tourists were male, who had a harem girl fantasy, they only wanted to see female performers in revealing costumes. In the 1930's the performance version we now know was created to cater to this new expectation. Once the film industry developed, these dancers became celebraties, linking professional dancers with being a female domain, even though socially men and women all did the dance.

In the 1960's men in the US started to perform on stage as well. Some were of Arab descent, some Americans who found it interesting.

As far as sexuality. Many of the men attracted to it were/are gay. For some it is a coincidence, for others, its a way of publicly aknowledging their gayness. Many of the latter are in real life effeminate men and because the dance is so identified with females and femininity, it became the perfect vehicle to express their sexuality.

As others have said before, most people assume that male dancers are gay. The fact of the matter is there are just as many gays in professional sports as there are in dance. The only thing is that in the dance world, guys aren't under the same kind of pressure to hide their sexual preferance, so they usually dont, hence the illusion that most ,ale dancers are gay.

In terms of this dance, I know a few male dancers personally, some are straight, some gay, some...I'm not sure. looking around youtube, most of the dancers I see do reenforce the effeminate stereotype. However, if more straight guys get involved in the dance, then this will no longer be the case. The world is what we make it.

Among Middle Easterners, judging from my personal experience, some get me some don't. If I'm dancing in m,y street clothes, there's no problem, but put on a costume and all of a sudden they have to figure it out:think:
I've heard some guys think I'm gay, not because I dance, but because I wear a costume with beads and sequines. I just did a wedding where the bride and groom requested I wear one of my costumes with the traditional embroidery instead of the glittery stuff. Catch 22 is that if I wear traditional Arab men's wear, Americans think I'm wearing a dress. Americans want a glittery costume.

Anyway, I think its great your goining the gang. Aisha and I don't quite agree on the issue of femininity in the dance. The professional version definately was created to display a certain feminine ideal, however, I've seen many men dancing socially who did not project a feminine vibe even when doing the slow moves. I would say that the slower moves will put you in touch with your inherant sensuality, which many men feel uncomfortable expressing publicly. However, many men in Africa and the Middle East are very comfortable doing so.

Lastly, yopu may encounter some Middle Easterners who will try to tell you men don't move their hips when the dance. These I pust under the category of ignorant psedo Westernized A**holes who are so busy trying to be American they wouldn't know their real culture if it ran up and took a bite out of their...... for this reason, I've given you an extensive video list of male dancers. The first is an interview on the topic, follwed by a few clips of myself and Tito, Egypts best, (no longer the only), known professional male dancer. The rest are clips of men dancing socially, across the Middle East and North Africa, exept for a folk entertainer here and there. The last clips are African dancers, showing that the idea that men don't move their hips is mostly a Eurocentric notion.
Enjoy


YouTube - Dance and the Egyptian people

YouTube - Male Oriental/belly Dancer Tarik Sultan in Egypt Part 1 : Tarik in Cairo opening number

YouTube - Tarik Sultan Oriental Dancer, (belly dancer)#3 : Tarik Adaweya Choreography

YouTube - Tarik Sultan Oriental Dancer, (belly dancer)#4 : TArik’s Yaho choreography

YouTube - Raks Shisha: Tarik Sultan Oriental Dancer,(belly dancer)#5 : Tarik’s water pipe dance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJu15l0wTuY: Man and woman in party

YouTube - Guys Oriental Dancing,(belly dancing) on the Nile in Egypt : Guy in Egypt dancing on party boat

YouTube - Mahsoub Male Oriental/belly Dancer in Luxor Egypt : Mahsoub, Saidi dancer in Luxor

YouTube - Tito Egypt's male Oriental/belly Dancer : Tito, Egypt’s best known male Oriental Dancer

YouTube - Entertainment : Turkish Kocheck Dancers

YouTube - el3nab : Sa’ad Sughayar’s and guys dancing in video Il Aynab

YouTube - Tarkan - "Kuzu Kuzu" : Turkish singer Tarkan dancing in his video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWKwu5NA2w4: Turkish guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvc-TEGYd1U: Really good Turkish guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A-RJSh6Ahg: Libyan guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJOWQ3YMRws: Moroccan guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gq5fD_4VEU: Moroccan berber

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKfmj6Pjcls: Moroccan guy doing dagger dance

YouTube - Matruh Group at the Ahlan wa Sahlan Festival 2006 : Lady and man doing Bedouine dance the Haggalla

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e8ZBWSTcTA:


YouTube - dance arabic belly men cairo : Guy doing Cane dance with shimmy undulation at end

YouTube - DANCERS : Congolese guys dancing

YouTube - Kusun Ensemble on the TimesCast : Traditional dance from Ghana, lots of hip twists

 

[Recnadocir]

To every gay guys who want to hide their sexuality please get a girl friend or wife. Believe me its easier and no body will ask you a question. And if you manage to get somebody like Nicole Kidman or Liza Menneli , Well you scored a good one.

I wouldn't suggest Liza as an example, Dipali- she has been one of the favorite singers of gay men for many years, along with her mom, and Barbara, Celine, etc.etc.

 

[Zorba]

Many of the latter are in real life effeminate men and because the dance is so identified with females and femininity, it became the perfect vehicle to express their sexuality.

Yes, but...

I'm no expert on gay guys, in fact I never knowingly met one until I became involved with the dance where, as you say, gays feel a little freer. But - the few gays that I've encountered are the MOST MILITANTLY "MASCULINE" guys I've ever met - nothing "effeminate" about them. I'm not saying all gays or even most gays are this way, just the few I've encountered. I've also read in various places that so-called "effeminacy" is mostly a straight male trait.

The overly "masculine" trait would support your point about gays in pro sports...

Thoughts?

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

Yes, but...

I'm no expert on gay guys, in fact I never knowingly met one until I became involved with the dance where, as you say, gays feel a little freer. But - the few gays that I've encountered are the MOST MILITANTLY "MASCULINE" guys I've ever met - nothing "effeminate" about them. I'm not saying all gays or even most gays are this way, just the few I've encountered. I've also read in various places that so-called "effeminacy" is mostly a straight male trait.

The overly "masculine" trait would support your point about gays in pro sports...

Thoughts?

Well, there are different types of gay guys. From very effeminate until very masculine. I have many gay friends and some of them are so masculine, one could never imagine they are gay. Others again are so effeminate, that I look like a real guy next to them:lol:

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

My god Chryssanthi. You are quite a lady.:shok: I have to be all padded up when I meet you, ..

Well dear, you'd better be You never know where I'll kick first:lol:

Lol. Chryssanthi there are a lot of relationships out there which is probably unusual compare to what we call normal.I was watching a programm on SBS, a free to air channel which broadcasts probably the most controversial and sometimes absolutely bizzare stories. Anyway it was called Post modern family. One gay, one bisexual and a straight women lived together for 15 years . The bisexual guy left the relationship after 13 years . The gay guy is still living with the straight women because they had 2 babbies while they all slept together. But i do understand what you mean . My comments meant to be a joke.

I also know some people who live in crazy relationships The human soul is an abyss and at the end what is normal and what not? I think that every human has the right to live according to his/her preferences as long as they don't hurt others consciously.

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

By the way Tarik, great posting:clap: Very informative. And thanks a lot for the youtube links

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Yes, but...

I'm no expert on gay guys, in fact I never knowingly met one until I became involved with the dance where, as you say, gays feel a little freer. But - the few gays that I've encountered are the MOST MILITANTLY "MASCULINE" guys I've ever met - nothing "effeminate" about them. I'm not saying all gays or even most gays are this way, just the few I've encountered. I've also read in various places that so-called "effeminacy" is mostly a straight male trait.

The overly "masculine" trait would support your point about gays in pro sports...

Thoughts?

Well..I was talking specifically abot effeminate gay men in the section you quoted. I wouldn't say that guys who are masculine gay or straight are putting on an act neccessarily. Some guys, regardless of their orientation, will become hyper masculine to compensate for their insecurity. They may feel weak or be fearfull that if they are perceived as weak, they will be taken advantage of, or bullied. Most guys however, I think are just being themselves.

I don't think that Gays in pro sports are in it to hide they're sexuality persay. I think they are just regular guys in every way, who like the rest of their peers, grew up likeing athletic activities, their sexuality just happens to be coincidental. However, because of the homosexuality is equated with being weak and unmanly, they will hide that fact because they don't want to be stigmatized and rejected by their peers.

What most men fear, gay or straight, is this type of rejection and being perceived as being weak, a pushover, a chump etc. Its the fear of being vulnerable and victimized and reviled that they are afraid of. I know a lot of straight guys who would love to do what I'm doing, but they are afraid of what people will think and say. I've always been the type of person who challenges things once I know the truth about a situation. Having said that though, if it were not a fact that men do dance this way socially, I doubt very strongly that I would have became involved in it. Once I knew it wasn't an exclusively female dance I felt, "well, if a guy can do it at a party, why can't he do it on stage too"?

Personally, I don't go out of my way to be "masculine", I'm just being myself. And as women design their costumes and persona to compliment their feminintiy and womanliness, I design my costumes presentation etc, to compliment my masculine and manly nature. I wouldn't wear something that looked like a bra top, see through pants etc because I don't feel that it compliments the lines of a man's body which are generally broader in the shoulders, narrow in the hips and more angular than rounded.