Newbie question

Aisha Azar

New member
Gay etc.

Dear Tarik,
Before Badia Masabni and her contemporaries came along there was no "belly dance". Belly dance was created for the purpose of entertainment on the stage, with a definite essence toward being charmingly feminine.There were and are dances of the people, Shaabi, Saidi and other folk forms and they are not belly dance. They are their own dance forms. Many of these forms were and are danced by men and women at parties, etc. Then there are dances as well that are masculine until they reach the stage. Dancing Saidi with a stick is one of them. You and I may disagree on this, but my Arab freinds do not. I have never met a male Arab who will say he is belly dancing. they consistently say Beledi, Saidi and lately, Shaabi.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
Personally, I don't go out of my way to be "masculine", I'm just being myself.

And THAT my friend, is the way it should be! :clap:

Indeed, if you (generic "you") aren't being yourself, you're not being true to the dance!

I see what you're talking about every day, among straights and gays - a false over-"masculinity" to compensate for insecurities. What's wrong with us guys? Why can't we just accept ourselves and each other for our true selves?

I'm beginning to think of a new tagline:

"It takes guts to be yourself."
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Dear Tarik,
Before Badia Masabni and her contemporaries came along there was no "belly dance". Belly dance was created for the purpose of entertainment on the stage, with a definite essence toward being charmingly feminine.There were and are dances of the people, Shaabi, Saidi and other folk forms and they are not belly dance. They are their own dance forms. Many of these forms were and are danced by men and women at parties, etc. Then there are dances as well that are masculine until they reach the stage. Dancing Saidi with a stick is one of them. You and I may disagree on this, but my Arab freinds do not. I have never met a male Arab who will say he is belly dancing. they consistently say Beledi, Saidi and lately, Shaabi.
Regards,
A'isha

If you read what I said carefully, you'll see that basically I said the same thing you just did. As you know, i don't use the name Belly Dance, I use the Arabic name for the performace version, Raks Sharki and indeed, this form although based on the folk dance, did not exist before the early 20th century. It was deliberately designed with the intent of displaying a feminine ideal. However, for us guys, we are now attempting to do something in the same spirit. We are creating a performance version based on the social dance, but from a male perspective. Tito, myself and a few others are an example of this. We may use the same movement vocabulary as women, but that's because the basic vocabulary is unisex. However, the feelings and emotions we express will be in harmony with our masculine energy.

When I dance, I use the full movement vocabulary, but my essence is not womanly or feminine, because I am not a woman and wouldn't know how to attempt to pull that off. I don't feel that energy inside and after all, this dance is about expressing your inner being. Squeeze and orange you get orange juice, squeeze a man and you get....that don't sound right does it:think:....Oh well, you know what I'm trying to say.
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
When I dance, I use the full movement vocabulary, but my essence is not womanly or feminine, because I am not a woman and wouldn't know how to attempt to pull that off. I don't feel that energy inside and after all, this dance is about expressing your inner being.
Yes. Absolutely, utterly yes. Thank you Tarik!

For myself, I say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to be "feminine" as I am neither a woman nor seek to be one. Anything/everything I do is "masculine" as I'm a guy (last time I checked). So I don't worry about it. Now if I wake up as a woman tomorrow morning, I'd still be the same person, but everything I'd do then would be "feminine"!

Others may find it to be different, but this is where I am.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Dance etc.

If you read what I said carefully, you'll see that basically I said the same thing you just did. As you know, i don't use the name Belly Dance, I use the Arabic name for the performace version, Raks Sharki and indeed, this form although based on the folk dance, did not exist before the early 20th century. It was deliberately designed with the intent of displaying a feminine ideal. However, for us guys, we are now attempting to do something in the same spirit. We are creating a performance version based on the social dance, but from a male perspective. Tito, myself and a few others are an example of this. We may use the same movement vocabulary as women, but that's because the basic vocabulary is unisex. However, the feelings and emotions we express will be in harmony with our masculine energy.

When I dance, I use the full movement vocabulary, but my essence is not womanly or feminine, because I am not a woman and wouldn't know how to attempt to pull that off. I don't feel that energy inside and after all, this dance is about expressing your inner being. Squeeze and orange you get orange juice, squeeze a man and you get....that don't sound right does it:think:....Oh well, you know what I'm trying to say.



Dear Tarik,
So in effect, you are saying then that you are doing something other than raqs sharghi, which you agree is based on feminine essence> That what you are doing is based instead on shaabi and other dances of the people, and you are taking these dances to the stage, much as happened to tap and hip-hop here in the Sates??
Regards,
A'isha
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Dear Tarik,
So in effect, you are saying then that you are doing something other than raqs sharghi, which you agree is based on feminine essence> That what you are doing is based instead on shaabi and other dances of the people, and you are taking these dances to the stage, much as happened to tap and hip-hop here in the Sates??
Regards,
A'isha

Not reeeallly. I know that Raks Sharki was developed with a certain femininity and sensuality that was not present in the dance before. What I do on stage is Raks Sharki, its just that I'm creating a male version. Just as in Ballet or Flamenco, there is a male and female version. The movement vocabulary is basically the same, but the way a man expresses them is different in essence than the way a woman does.

Raks Sharki, male or female, is based on the folk dances like baladi, witrh a touch of ballroom and dramatic flare thrown in.
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
Ah, Tarik and A'isha are at it, and for once I'm not involved! Its not everyday two well-educated dancers get into a debate!

{*Reaches for popcorn and soda*}

Let the entertainment (and education) begin! :D:D
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Raqs, etc.

Not reeeallly. I know that Raks Sharki was developed with a certain femininity and sensuality that was not present in the dance before. What I do on stage is Raks Sharki, its just that I'm creating a male version. Just as in Ballet or Flamenco, there is a male and female version. The movement vocabulary is basically the same, but the way a man expresses them is different in essence than the way a woman does.

Raks Sharki, male or female, is based on the folk dances like baladi, witrh a touch of ballroom and dramatic flare thrown in.


Dear Tarik,
The movement base is Beledi, Ghawazi, etc, with some other concepts thrown in, perhaps western in origin, but definitely with Middle Eastern filter. But the essence of the dance is feminine. While the dance has some aspects of the folkloric base it is decidedly not a folkloric dance, but a new creation in dance, separate from what the people were and are doing.
I am not sure that I understand you. Would you say that you are perhaps pioneering a new, masculine form of Raqs Sharghi? My feeling is that men have done this dance for as long as women, just not nearly as publicly and that they have done so knowing that they were dancing in imitation of a female dance form, hence the extra shame attached to the dance for men in the Middle East/ North Africa, where is it readily acknowledged that this is a feminine dance.
I have no issues with men dancing, but I do have issues with those, can not acknowledge the essence of the dance as female. I am never sure where you stand on this since you acknowledge that the dance is feminine, but say you are creating a male dance.You say that you are creating a male version, but the essence and spirit of the dance are feminine. For me, this does not mean that a male has to dance like a woman, but that he needs some acknowledgment of the yin in the dance form itself, regardless of who is dancing. The dance has its own soul and spirit outside the dancer, if that makes sense.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Recnadocir

New member
"Imitation of a female dance form??!!!?" Snort!

Let's not forget who came from whose rib.:naghty: In fact, from now on I shall address all women with the suffix, "rib." Such as, A'isha-rib, Shanazel-rib, and so on.



(Mighty Rico/Recna, heedless of danger, jumps headlong into the fray in support of the embattled Tarik Sultan)
 
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Aisha Azar

New member
"Imitation of a female dance form??!!!?" Snort!

Let's not forget who came from whose rib.:naghty: In fact, from now on I shall address all women with the suffix, "rib." Such as, A'isha-rib, Shanazel-rib, and so on.



(Mighty Rico/Recna, heedless of dancer, jumps headlong into the fray in support of the embattled Tarik Sultan)


Darling Rico,
And let's not forget where ALL men and women come from, and its somewhere south of a female's rib!!
Hugs to you and Grak,
A'isha
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Dear Tarik,
The movement base is Beledi, Ghawazi, etc, with some other concepts thrown in, perhaps western in origin, but definitely with Middle Eastern filter. But the essence of the dance is feminine. While the dance has some aspects of the folkloric base it is decidedly not a folkloric dance, but a new creation in dance, separate from what the people were and are doing.
I am not sure that I understand you. Would you say that you are perhaps pioneering a new, masculine form of Raqs Sharghi? My feeling is that men have done this dance for as long as women, just not nearly as publicly and that they have done so knowing that they were dancing in imitation of a female dance form, hence the extra shame attached to the dance for men in the Middle East/ North Africa, where is it readily acknowledged that this is a feminine dance.
I have no issues with men dancing, but I do have issues with those, can not acknowledge the essence of the dance as female. I am never sure where you stand on this since you acknowledge that the dance is feminine, but say you are creating a male dance.You say that you are creating a male version, but the essence and spirit of the dance are feminine. For me, this does not mean that a male has to dance like a woman, but that he needs some acknowledgment of the yin in the dance form itself, regardless of who is dancing. The dance has its own soul and spirit outside the dancer, if that makes sense.
Regards,
A'isha

Busy dealing with White Supremicists on another form and getting ready for a gig. I'll splain you evry ting Lucy real soon. Its really not comp-licated at all.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Dear Tarik,
The movement base is Beledi, Ghawazi, etc, with some other concepts thrown in, perhaps western in origin, but definitely with Middle Eastern filter. But the essence of the dance is feminine. While the dance has some aspects of the folkloric base it is decidedly not a folkloric dance, but a new creation in dance, separate from what the people were and are doing.

Yes, the basic movement vocabulary of Raks Sharki is the same as the native Egyptian social dance. However, Raks Sharki IS a theatrical creation. Therefore, it is different in its dynamic from the social dance. What they did was take the Egyptian movement vocabulary but execute it with a dramatic flare and added concepts of spacial paterns borrowed from ballroom dance.

As I said, when this dance was created, it was with the intent of expressing a certain concept of femininty and female charm sensuality and eroticism that was not present either in the social dance, persay or in the dances of the professional entertainers. This sensuality is not inherant in the dance, but was deliberately added in the 1930's.

I am not sure that I understand you. Would you say that you are perhaps pioneering a new, masculine form of Raqs Sharghi?

Raks Sharki is based on the social dance. However, when it was adapted to the stage, it was not solely with the intention of reflecting creating a theatrical version of the folk culture. It was largely commercial in its motivation. It was greard to a male audience, which is why there was an absence of male performers.

My feeling is that men have done this dance for as long as women, just not nearly as publicly and that they have done so knowing that they were dancing in imitation of a female dance form, hence the extra shame attached to the dance for men in the Middle East/ North Africa, where is it readily acknowledged that this is a feminine dance.

Men have been a part of the creation of this dance style, Raks Sharki, in the capacity of choreographers and coaches from the beginning, they were not performers. While there were male dancers who performed in the 19th century and before, this predates the creation of Raks Sharki as we know it. What they did, male and female, differed very little from the social dance of the ordinary people.

Raks Sharki was about expressing femininty because it was geared for a male audience. This is the context it was created and performed in even today. Therefore, no matter how much a guy would like to perform, there is no context for him to perform in because none was created for him. Since the dance is performed primarily in nightclubs and the audience is primarily male expecting to see a beautiful woman, where does a guy fit in this paradigm? He doesn't. The existing paradim is that Raks Sharki was created to be a display of feminity primarily FOR a male audience. Therfore, in this paradigm, a man performing on stage is seen as competing with women for male attention. Add to this that now its considered a female job and there in lies the shame. Its not in the fact that they dance with their hips. Social dancing carries no shame. Being a professional dancer however, is considered low class and shamefull even for women.

I have no issues with men dancing, but I do have issues with those, can not acknowledge the essence of the dance as female.

What I am saying, is that the dance is really a vehicle of artistic expression. Its just that the current theatrical version was created with the intent of expressing womanly charm, however, this is only one of many possible expressions. My goal is to expand on the theatrical creation. The more expancive use of space, the dramatic and theatrical elements such as costume and persona are all definate improvements.

What I am saying is that the focus should be broadened. Instead of being limited to the context of nightclub entertainment for a male focus, it should focus more on an artistic expression. If the paradigm is expanded to express cultural as well as artistic spirit, there is no reason why men should not or could not also perform. This in no way would compete or negate the female qualities of the Rakasa, but it would include a male counterpart, as exists in the Ballet, Flamenco and also Hula. This is what I express when I dance and is what you see when you look at me. I'm not trying to be coy or seductive, or alluring, nor do I feel the need to display my body.

I am never sure where you stand on this since you acknowledge that the dance is feminine, but say you are creating a male dance.You say that you are creating a male version, but the essence and spirit of the dance are feminine.

I think the confusion is in what is meant by the term "feminine". When I use the term feminine, I do not mean neccessarily womanly or female. It is an energy. It is basically love energy. Its happy, careing, compassionate. Masculinity on the other hand is not neccessarily manly or male. It is the force of agency, the motivation that gets things done. It's an assertive force. Both men and women need to have a balance of these two forces to be a healthy human being. Therefore, when I say the dance, (Baladi), is feminine energy, I don't mean its female, what I mean is that it is based on love energy. Its a friendly, joyfull celebratory dance. Martial dances on the other hand, like Takhtiyb, are masculine energy. Its assertive, combative.
[/quote]

For me, this does not mean that a male has to dance like a woman, but that he needs some acknowledgment of the yin in the dance form itself, regardless of who is dancing. The dance has its own soul and spirit outside the dancer, if that makes sense.
Regards,
A'isha

As I said, the driving force of the dance is love energy. Its not an agressive or combative dance in nature. Is it female, well when a woman is doing it, yes, it is womanly she is expressing her being through it. When men do it, it is manly for the same reason. When I dance I am chanelling this energy with the intent of sharing it with my audience. This is what you see when I dance and why I usually don't get a bad reaction for Arab guys in the audience. They understand that I am not trying to compete with a woman, but I'm all about having a party. I hope this clarifies my position.
 

Shanazel

Moderator
Darling Rico,
And let's not forget where ALL men and women come from, and its somewhere south of a female's rib!!
Hugs to you and Grak,
A'isha

Which makes it Rick-womb, hmm? Or more graphically... but I digress from an interesting conversation. Zorba, dear, get your hand out of my popcorn.
 

cathy

New member
I agree with Tarik. We all need love energy and getting things done energy. I think this is a great way of describing them, and I agree that this dance is about love energy (which is not especially female). It bugs me that labels like straight or gay or masculine or feminine could get in the way of good dance. True there aren't a lot of men doing this dance today, and it may be that a larger percentage of those who do are gay. If so I think if so goes to show that gay men are more open minded and confident about themselves than straight guys. (I couldn't convince my husband to try this dance in a million years. He is into karate and stick fighting--so more power to you for trying both, Zardoz! So far I haven't even convinced my husband to try ballroom dancing.)

I still think that even if Raks Sharki developed from Beledi under circumstances where "feminine" attributes were showcased, to me that doesn't mean that we have to conclude that it is an essentially "feminine" or sexy dance. Just like in Shakespeare's time all the actors were men, it doesn't mean Shakespeare is essentially "masculine" or should only be acted by all-male casts today.

In learning this dance I am interested in something that goes way beyond displaying whatever "feminine charms" I may or may not possess. The definition of these is all culturally mediated anyway, as Tarik mentions (sequins, etc). As far as I can tell and from what I have read, no one says the music is masculine or feminine and that's what we are all doing our best to express, right?

I have been reading a great book about Arab music and the love lyrics come from sufi tradition poetry that sounds similar to the Song of Solomon. The love infatuation is a metaphor for thirsting for the divine. The listener and performer are both overpowered and empowered by the music, in a process that causes annihilation and transcendence. That is a truly compelling vision to me. And there's no gender concept in it.

Cathy
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Dance, etc.

Dear Tarik,
Some of the quote did not seem to make it to this post, but I will do my best to respond in text below.


Yes, the basic movement vocabulary of Raks Sharki is the same as the native Egyptian social dance. However, Raks Sharki IS a theatrical creation. Therefore, it is different in its dynamic from the social dance. What they did was take the Egyptian movement vocabulary but execute it with a dramatic flare and added concepts of spacial paterns borrowed from ballroom dance.

A. writes- While the root vocabulary is the same, the technique itself is very different, to say nothing of the spirit and essence of raqs sharghi being very distinct from beledi, shaabi, Saidi Ghawazi etc. Each of these dances has their own distinct personality. One of the biggest differences, besides the gender isssue, is the communal nature or the folkloric dances as opposed to the soloist nature of sharghi. And, while people keep pointing to western elements in the dance, they usually neglect to relate that those influences are filtered through a distinctly ethnic thought process and come out very different than what they would in the west. Witness the terrible ballet stuff that Reda did with Fahmi for an example of what I am talking about.

As I said, when this dance was created, it was with the intent of expressing a certain concept of femininty and female charm sensuality and eroticism that was not present either in the social dance, persay or in the dances of the professional entertainers. This sensuality is not inherant in the dance, but was deliberately added in the 1930's.

A. writes- In what way do you think the nature of the dance has changed in intent? In seeing the natives, this same intent is still very visible. That sensuality was not only inherent in raqs sharghi as a dance from, but it was in fact, often the whole point.( For Cathy, this does not mean only being "sexy", but all the other things that go into being a complete female. Sexy is not an attribute in itself, but a combination of things, sometimes very complex.) Again, sharghi is a separate and distinct dance form the people's dances in both intent, character and in the way it is danced. Unlike the folkoric dances, it is not about community, it is about the soloist's effort to express through the body and spirit, to manifest both personal feeling and music.





I think the confusion is in what is meant by the term "feminine". When I use the term feminine, I do not mean neccessarily womanly or female. It is an energy. It is basically love energy. Its happy, careing, compassionate. Masculinity on the other hand is not neccessarily manly or male. It is the force of agency, the motivation that gets things done. It's an assertive force. Both men and women need to have a balance of these two forces to be a healthy human being. Therefore, when I say the dance, (Baladi), is feminine energy, I don't mean its female, what I mean is that it is based on love energy. Its a friendly, joyfull celebratory dance. Martial dances on the other hand, like Takhtiyb, are masculine energy. Its assertive, combative.


A. writes- Tarik, you know as well as I do that I am one of the least confused people that you know when expressing myself about the dance. Feminine and female have very clear meanings. They mean feminine and female as opposed to masculine and male. We agree that the dance is feminine in essence, but you seem to think that can have various meanings. It is not based on "Love energy" but on feminine energy and essence. This is what makes it taboo for males to dance raqs sharghi in countries of origin. They, the natives, recognize the dance as feminine in essence and men are not supposed to get into female pursuits. I give the natives credit for understanding their own dances and their meanings and spirit. I may disagree with the premise that men should not do this dance, but I never mistake my feelings for anything other than what they are, my own feelings. I understand that the dance itself, in the eyes of those from whom it comes, is a feminine essenced dance.


As I said, the driving force of the dance is love energy. Its not an agressive or combative dance in nature. Is it female, well when a woman is doing it, yes, it is womanly she is expressing her being through it. When men do it, it is manly for the same reason. When I dance I am chanelling this energy with the intent of sharing it with my audience. This is what you see when I dance and why I usually don't get a bad reaction for Arab guys in the audience. They understand that I am not trying to compete with a woman, but I'm all about having a party. I hope this clarifies my position.[/QUOTE]

A. writes- In seeing some dancers dance, it IS sometimes aggressive in its nature, just as some women are aggressive. This does not make it masculine in anything other than the broadest terms. ( Fifi Abdou is an example of a very aggressive dancer.) When you dance you may be channeling energy,but if you are dancing in perfection for the style, that energy is feminine. I have never personally met an Arab guy who will say he is dancing sharghi except when he is making fun of a woman. They usually say they are dancing beledi, sometimes sharghi. The best male dancer that I know who is not professional, can dance technically as well as any trained belly dancer. He says he dances beledi. I have no reason to argue with what these people say about their own dancing.

My own feeling is that males have been dancing raqs sharghi, as distinct from the folkloric dances, for probably about as long as the dance style has existed. They have much of the time done so underground because of the taboo against homosexual behaviors in Islam. Whether or not they were gay, their behavior would be considered so in Islamic countries. Since I believe men have done the dance for nearly as long as it has existed, this is the reason why I feel that men can do the dance as well as women. Though it is feminine in its essence, it has nearly always been performed by both sexes.
Regards,
A'isha
 
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cathy

New member
Hi A'isha,

On 6/13/07 you posted the following on the "I Don't Know" thread:

"To present this in the form of my more complex opinion, the thing that REALLY draws the audience to this dance, when the dance is performed by a truly skilled person is that what we get to see is not only the physical interpretation of that humaness, but we actually get to look at another person being completely who they are. Kama, to steal a Hindi word (love, both physical and spiritual) is a huge part of that experience for most human beings. When women put this dance on stage for other people to look at, they were not only exposing themselves physically, but on every other human level as well. That was and is the real secret of the dance, I think. That kind of exposure is far scarier than merely taking off one's clothing or indulging in a bit of public autoeroticism."

By Kama I took you to mean something similar to what I think Tarik meant by "love energy." I notice you use "truly skilled person" and "human beings" but then switch to "when women put this dance on stage." Just to clarify, do you think that this process of seeing a person being completely who they are would be any different for a man vs. a woman?

Cathy
 
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Aisha Azar

New member
Dance, etc.

Hi A'isha,

On 6/13/07 you posted the following on the "I Don't Know" thread:

"To present this in the form of my more complex opinion, the thing that REALLY draws the audience to this dance, when the dance is performed by a truly skilled person is that what we get to see is not only the physical interpretation of that humaness, but we actually get to look at another person being completely who they are. Kama, to steal a Hindi word (love, both physical and spiritual) is a huge part of that experience for most human beings. When women put this dance on stage for other people to look at, they were not only exposing themselves physically, but on every other human level as well. That was and is the real secret of the dance, I think. That kind of exposure is far scarier than merely taking off one's clothing or indulging in a bit of public autoeroticism."

By Kama I took you to mean something similar to what I think Tarik meant by "love energy." I notice you use "truly skilled person" and "human beings" but then switch to "when women put this dance on stage." Just to clarify, do you think that this process of seeing a person being completely who they are would be any different for a man vs. a woman?

Cathy


Dear Cathy,
Kama usually refers to sexual energy in all aspects, not "love energy" in the parental, or universal or any of those other forms. Women developed this dance and put it on stage,and the energy is definitely feminine. The point of the dance is that feminine energy, expressed in all the ways above. I say "human beings" , as opposed to females because I believe that both sexes can tap into this energy and do the dance retaining that essence and spirit. I also believe that without that essence and spirit, a person is doing a different dance. I also believe that in specifics, that essence and spirit have a cultural, ethnic reality as well, or it is not the dance. But that does not mean men can not dance the dance if they understand and acknowledge that energy to be what it is. I have always stated that I believe men can do the dance as well as women, and in fact I believe they have been dancing sharghi nearly as long as women have. Seeing the person be completely who they are is something that happens from the audience point of view, and they may see the dance any way they want. In reality, this does not stop the dance, when it is done in perfection, from having a feminine essence.
Regards,
A'isha
 
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