Teaching men bellydance

[Kuma]

Even though I have never danced in front of an audience (yet), I think a duet would be really nice. Though I do see both sides, as I would be the type to be more spontaneous and would want to be free to do my thing and have that connection with the audience. BUT would feel much safer if I had someone with me on stage to play off of each other's energy and in MY case, given where I am geographically ( red neck ville ) wouldn't feel so scrutinized for being a male dancer as I would have a female with me. I know it sounds like I'm giving into the male dancer stereotype, but thats a reality where I live. Especially in a public venue. Now, if I was say, sword, tray, or fire dancing - that I would think would be best done alone. Thoughts?

 

[Zorba]

Do what makes you comfortable. I've been a performer all my life, and let me tell you right now that I was *never* so terrified of performing as I was when I did my first performance. Fortunately, it was with a troupe, unfortunately, I was in front!

Doing my first solo wasn't nearly as bad...

 

[Mark_Balahadia]

I will have to agree with A'isha on this one. Traditional, ra2s el sha2i is a solo dance, duets are not traditionally done unless one is performing folkloric tableaux during ones routine. This doesn't mean one can't do a duet. It's just outside the traditional sphere in which Oriental Dance inhabits.

The Do-wop chorus lines that A'isha speaks of originated with Badia Masabni, the grandmother of all things Oriental Dance. A solo dancer would have a bevy of dancing babes behind her...and yes this was more for dramatic wall paper than any kind of "troupe" number.

Duets do happen if you mean the duet between a singer and a dancer. Everyone knows about Samia Jamal and Farid el Atrache but there was also Faiza Ahmed with Naima Akef in Tamra Henna and in the 70s Ahmed Adawiya and Suhair Zeki.

There is one exception that I can think of off-hand. In a Lebanese wedding, standard fare for ones' Zeffa is either a dabke troupe, a dabke troupe with a belly dancer, or just a belly dancer (not including the musicians). When a wedding does have both elements, usually the belly dancer will dance along with the different troupe members, especially the male leader during the Zeffa. But again this would only happen at a wedding not a nightclub.

Personally, I've been asked by clients several times about doing duets. I did them once at a club I use to worked at...but never again (touba, touba, touba hahah). It just doesn't feel right to me...

 

[Recnadocir]

I finished a duet a few years ago with a tribal dancer. It was set to the "Printemps qui commence" mezzo aria from Samson et Dalila, by Saint-Saens. We were just trying to figure out where to perform it, when her employer suddenly transferred her to Arizona. Crap!

I think as soon as an audience sees a male and female on stage in a duet, they will think romantic relationship. In fact I think this will occur almost invariably, even if there is no physical contact- in this case the audience will assume, "romantic relationship with problems".

I saw a ballet duet a while back which had extensive physical contact, but there was absolutely no connection between the two dancers. If that had been the choreographer's intent, and made clear in the choreography, I guess that would have been okay, if rather post-modernist. But apparently the reality was that the male and female dancer just didn't get along, in general!

 

[Brea]

There's the question in my mind, however, that if this is generally the way people dance in the Middle East, even in discos and such, then of course there are going to be couples dancing...I don't see why it would be an issue, but it seems that there is a very restrictive view on what bellydance is and what it isn't, and what you are able to do within the professional context of same. I do duets with another girl all the time...that does not mean she and I are lovers, or are portraying that. I think having a male in the same duet (instead of the girl, I mean) and another girl would not look 'romantic', but it would be fun.

Just my two cents.

-Brea

 

[Mark_Balahadia]

Coupling dancing when you are at a party is ok because people are just having fun but in a performance setting oriental dance is a solo dance form. This is what they do in the Middle East, however it doesn't mean you can't do it here...it just isn't "belly dance" as it is traditionally done "over there". However, Tito a male dancer performed a duet with one of his female troupe members a while back on Rotana (aka Saudi-owned entertainment conglamerate). But there was nothing romantic about the duet...they were just trying to show off :dance:

By the way, some Middle Eastern countries don't even have discos (i.e. Saudi and Iran). The countries that do like Turkey and Lebanon are pretty liberal/secular places and discos are like the ones in Europe. Other countries especially Syria, the discos are seedy places of ill repute. They are choke full of Russian/Moroccan/Iraqi prostitutes who cater to the local sex trade (unless you include those "weekend" virgins and those Saudis looking for a nice piece of teenage boy butt). No good girl in her right mind would walk into a place like this! Couples dancing in a Syrian discotheque usually means a prostitute grinding her bits against some drunk Khaleeji to raunchy Shaabi music. FYI

There's the question in my mind, however, that if this is generally the way people dance in the Middle East, even in discos and such, then of course there are going to be couples dancing...I don't see why it would be an issue, but it seems that there is a very restrictive view on what bellydance is and what it isn't, and what you are able to do within the professional context of same. I do duets with another girl all the time...that does not mean she and I are lovers, or are portraying that. I think having a male in the same duet (instead of the girl, I mean) and another girl would not look 'romantic', but it would be fun.

Just my two cents.

-Brea

 

[Aisha Azar]

Duets, etc.

Coupling dancing when you are at a party is ok because people are just having fun but in a performance setting oriental dance is a solo dance form. This is what they do in the Middle East, however it doesn't mean you can't do it here...it just isn't "belly dance" as it is traditionally done "over there". However, Tito a male dancer performed a duet with one of his female troupe members a while back on Rotana (aka Saudi-owned entertainment conglamerate). But there was nothing romantic about the duet...they were just trying to show off :dance:

By the way, some Middle Eastern countries don't even have discos (i.e. Saudi and Iran). The countries that do like Turkey and Lebanon are pretty liberal/secular places and discos are like the ones in Europe. Other countries especially Syria, the discos are seedy places of ill repute. They are choke full of Russian/Moroccan/Iraqi prostitutes who cater to the local sex trade (unless you include those "weekend" virgins and those Saudis looking for a nice piece of teenage boy butt). No good girl in her right mind would walk into a place like this! Couples dancing in a Syrian discotheque usually means a prostitute grinding her bits against some drunk Khaleeji to raunchy Shaabi music. FYI

Dear Mark,
What you said!! And usually in the Middle East, duets and other dances with more than one person as principle are done in a "folkloric for the stage" context.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Duets

Its true that in Egypt and Lebanon one does not see duets being danced generally, but that does not mean that it can't be done, nor that it detracts in any way for Oriental dance. By they way, Tito does do duets as a regular part of his show. No they are not romantic in nature, but I think that has more to do with, A. the fact that a male female duet has never been conceptualized in Egypt, especially since a man in the context of performing Sharki on stage was not conceptualized, B. I don't think his ego allows room for interacting with another person on stage in the way that one would have to do a duet properly as versus two people dancing simultaneously. A duet is about the interaction between two people, not focusing exclusively one. I think he enjoys the limelight just a bit too much to allow himself to not be the primary focus of attention.

Understand also that the context within which the dance is done here and in Egypt is vastly different. Here, we usually do a standard 20min routine. Over there, 20mins is just the beginning. They do at least 2 to three other routines in addition to often singing as well. Of course there is also a much different way they interact with the audience.

I think duets are a natural progression of the dance. I don't think it’s beneficial to limit ourselves to copying what they do in Egypt. I do believe it is important to keep the integrity of the movement vocabulary and the spirit and attitude that makes it truly Oriental as versus, fusion or Tribal, but that within those parameters, there is lots of room for expansion.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Duets

Dear Tarik,
Responses in context.

Its true that in Egypt and Lebanon one does not see duets being danced generally, but that does not mean that it can't be done, nor that it detracts in any way for Oriental dance.

A. writes- One does see duets, just not as raqs sharghi, which is a solo dance by its veryy nature.



By they way, Tito does do duets as a regular part of his show.


A. writes- I still see Tito as mainly a Beledi style dancer and this seems to be the focus; not sharghi. I have also seen him do that drum thingy with his son, but that is more exhibition dance than sharghi.

No they are not romantic in nature, but I think that has more to do with, A. the fact that a male female duet has never been conceptualized in Egypt, especially since a man in the context of performing Sharki on stage was not conceptualized,

A. writes- A friend recently told me that even though Titi has two wives, most Egyptians think he is gay because he dances as a professional dancer. This in spite of his folk dance background.


B. I don't think his ego allows room for interacting with another person on stage in the way that one would have to do a duet properly as versus two people dancing simultaneously. A duet is about the interaction between two people, not focusing exclusively one. I think he enjoys the limelight just a bit too much to allow himself to not be the primary focus of attention.

A. writes- I believe you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Understand also that the context within which the dance is done here and in Egypt is vastly different. Here, we usually do a standard 20min routine. Over there, 20mins is just the beginning. They do at least 2 to three other routines in addition to often singing as well. Of course there is also a much different way they interact with the audience.

A. writes- The prima dancer is not on stage the whole time. Sharghi and "folkoric" dance are interspersed, along with musical interludes. Sometimes there are group dances, etc. My shows are set up along these lines except that we generally do not have a prima dancer unless we are sponsoring someone.

I think duets are a natural progression of the dance. I don't think it’s beneficial to limit ourselves to copying what they do in Egypt.

A. writes- It is extremely beneficial if one says one is doing authentic Egyptian dance.

I do believe it is important to keep the integrity of the movement vocabulary and the spirit and attitude that makes it truly Oriental as versus, fusion or Tribal, but that within those parameters, there is lots of room for expansion.

A. writes- In the situation of duets, since Raqs Sharghi is a solo dance, it would change the essence and spirit of the dance and take it out of the realm of "truly Oriental" in that context, if we try to make the dance a duet, romantic or otherwise. ( And in the Arab mind, what other reason would there be for doing a belly dance duet, in all honesty?) I have always thought it best let the natives decide what is a natural progression in the dance since westerners tend to do things differently and can miss the point entirely,as we have seen countless times.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Dear Tarik,
Responses in context.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan
Its true that in Egypt and Lebanon one does not see duets being danced generally, but that does not mean that it can't be done, nor that it detracts in any way for Oriental dance.

A. writes- One does see duets, just not as raqs sharghi, which is a solo dance by its veryy nature.

Tarik: Time to expand. The solo dance will always be there. That will never change, but a duet is a nice addition and people love to see it. When I dance with Morocco, we each do our solos and then we duet at the end.

By they way, Tito does do duets as a regular part of his show.


A. writes- I still see Tito as mainly a Beledi style dancer and this seems to be the focus; not sharghi. I have also seen him do that drum thingy with his son, but that is more exhibition dance than sharghi.

Tarik:That's the way you see it, but that's not the way he sees it, nor do a lot of people. They consider it Sharki. I saw him and Aida Nour this July when they were in New York, (which was shortly after our last discussion on this point) and I asked them specifically if Tito did Raks Sharki, they both said yes. I asked him if he was going to so the Shisha dance, (which he borrowed from me by the way), and he said no, he was only doing the Assaya and Sharki.

No they are not romantic in nature, but I think that has more to do with, A. the fact that a male female duet has never been conceptualized in Egypt, especially since a man in the context of performing Sharki on stage was not conceptualized,

A. writes- A friend recently told me that even though Titi has two wives, most Egyptians think he is gay because he dances as a professional dancer. This in spite of his folk dance background.

Tarik:???? Soooo? If you wear your hair long they say you're gay, if you have a tatoo they say you're gay, if you wear a gold chain they say you're gay. In other words, if you don't conform to their narrow minded dysfunctional bull$31t, they say you're gay. An artist can't put too much stock in silly people and their stupid opinions and be a free person. So, I think its best to follow the advise of the great Dina herself in these matters and say, Fuck those people! Or better yet, don't. What did they do so great to deserve such a gift?

B. I don't think his ego allows room for interacting with another person on stage in the way that one would have to do a duet properly as versus two people dancing simultaneously. A duet is about the interaction between two people, not focusing exclusively one. I think he enjoys the limelight just a bit too much to allow himself to not be the primary focus of attention.

A. writes- I believe you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Understand also that the context within which the dance is done here and in Egypt is vastly different. Here, we usually do a standard 20min routine. Over there, 20mins is just the beginning. They do at least 2 to three other routines in addition to often singing as well. Of course there is also a much different way they interact with the audience.

A. writes- The prima dancer is not on stage the whole time. Sharghi and "folkoric" dance are interspersed, along with musical interludes. Sometimes there are group dances, etc. My shows are set up along these lines except that we generally do not have a prima dancer unless we are sponsoring someone.

Tarik:Yes, but you are fortyunate enough to be in a situation where you are in control of the production. Most of us, running from club to club, don't have that option, nor does the audience have the attention span, nor are the club owners willing to spend the money for something like that.

I think duets are a natural progression of the dance. I don't think it’s beneficial to limit ourselves to copying what they do in Egypt.

A. writes- It is extremely beneficial if one says one is doing authentic Egyptian dance.

Tarik:Its a progression and addition to what is already there, not a substitution.

I do believe it is important to keep the integrity of the movement vocabulary and the spirit and attitude that makes it truly Oriental as versus, fusion or Tribal, but that within those parameters, there is lots of room for expansion.
A. writes- In the situation of duets, since Raqs Sharghi is a solo dance, it would change the essence and spirit of the dance and take it out of the realm of "truly Oriental" in that context, if we try to make the dance a duet, romantic or otherwise. ( And in the Arab mind, what other reason would there be for doing a belly dance duet, in all honesty?) I have always thought it best let the natives decide what is a natural progression in the dance since westerners tend to do things differently and can miss the point entirely,as we have seen countless times.

Regards,
A'isha

Tarik:If I sat back and waited for them to decide what to do or not do, I wouldn't have a career. Most of my current employment are in Egyptian establishments, but I had to show them what I could do and that I know how to entertain an audience and not be their worse stereotypical nightmare before they agreed to it. Same thing with the Shisha dance. I creaqted something based on a theme and now Tito is doing it and I've just recently found out that what I really did was just revive something that use to be done way in the past. I found a picture of a couple of Ghawazee dancing with Shishas. Point is though, I am well familiar with the dance forms and so I can create within a certain context which does not lose thespirit or essence of Egyptian dance.

I think we need to maintain the old traditional style, but that doesn't mean that we cannot be creative and spontainious. I'm a creative person and therefore, I can't sit down and wait to see what they are going to do next. To be honest, sometimes what they come up with is wonderful and sometimes it's pure crap@!

So since I've been dancing for over 20yrs, if I want to create something on a baladi theme, I can do it. If I want to create something on a shabbi theme I can do it, If I want to expand on sharki, I know how to do it so that the integrity is not lost, although for a lot of people, the very fact that I'm a man is a radical departure from the norm. So as I told the drunk A$$h@!e tonight who was insisting he wanted to see a woman, TOUGH $31T! Its the ladies turn to be entertained! And they were.
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LIVE FREE, DIE OLD, DIE HAPPY!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance, etc.

Dear Tarik,
Since I have addressed most of this beofre, I will respond to the only new subject in the paragraph to keep it short and sweet.

Tarik wrote_I think we need to maintain the old traditional style, but that doesn't mean that we cannot be creative and spontainious. I'm a creative person and therefore, I can't sit down and wait to see what they are going to do next. To be honest, sometimes what they come up with is wonderful and sometimes it's pure crap@!


A. writes- Are you saying that the Egyptians can not come up with anything creative and still be true to the dance form? I am also a creative person. ( In fact, in my Junior year of high school, I and every other Junior in Southern California were part of the at the time new creativity quotient tests. I scored highest in the Juniors for my area. Surprise, surprise, since they thought the kids with the highest grade point averages would do so!!) However as a non-native, I have try try and create in ways that reflect the dance in reality; not decide what I want the dance to be without taking that into consideration. It is very easy to create within the boundaries of cultural elements and make something very wonderful happen on the stage. I have been dancing for over 33 years and that does not change just because I have been dancing a long time.

I danced in Arab and Greek clubs for some 25 years. I consider myself too old now to fill that bill, but I know that even that experience does not have to limit what one puts on the stage in terms of cultural elements. I did many, many things on the stage that were not considered the norm here in the states, but remained true to presenting in a cultural way. I still do. The biggest difference is that my announcer must explain to the audience what is going on so that the general audience can more fully enjoy what they are seeing.

Regards,
A'isha

So since I've been dancing for over 20yrs, if I want to create something on a baladi theme, I can do it. If I want to create something on a shabbi theme I can do it, If I want to expand on sharki, I know how to do it so that the integrity is not lost, although for a lot of people, the very fact that I'm a man is a radical departure from the norm. So as I told the drunk A$$h@!e tonight who was insisting he wanted to see a woman, TOUGH $31T! Its the ladies turn to be entertained! And they were.
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LIVE FREE, DIE OLD, DIE HAPPY![/QUOTE]

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Dear Tarik,
Since I have addressed most of this beofre, I will respond to the only new subject in the paragraph to keep it short and sweet.

Tarik wrote_I think we need to maintain the old traditional style, but that doesn't mean that we cannot be creative and spontainious. I'm a creative person and therefore, I can't sit down and wait to see what they are going to do next. To be honest, sometimes what they come up with is wonderful and sometimes it's pure crap@!


A. writes- Are you saying that the Egyptians can not come up with anything creative and still be true to the dance form?

Tarik:
Nope. If your read my comment, especially at the end, you'll see that is not implied. To restate, sometimes what they come up with is wonderful....
However, I don't think we should have to wait to see what they come up with. In the mean time, use your own creativity. As long as you are true to the dance form, its okay. The solo expression will always be the core of what we do, but its okay to go beyond that boundery. A show as I envision it would include all the elements, past present and future. There would be solos, but then there would also be ensamble pieces, which has already been done since Badia's time, as well as the new element of romantic duets.

If you look at Samia Gamal for example, she did a lot of fusion pieces in many of her musicals, as did Naima and Tahia. I think many of those were far more off the mark in spirit and style than a romantic duet, however, the art didn't die or suffer because it was only an addition to, not a replacement of the standard format.

A:I am also a creative person. ( In fact, in my Junior year of high school, I and every other Junior in Southern California were part of the at the time new creativity quotient tests. I scored highest in the Juniors for my area. Surprise, surprise, since they thought the kids with the highest grade point averages would do so!!) However as a non-native, I have try try and create in ways that reflect the dance in reality; not decide what I want the dance to be without taking that into consideration. It is very easy to create within the boundaries of cultural elements and make something very wonderful happen on the stage. I have been dancing for over 33 years and that does not change just because I have been dancing a long time.

Tarik:Aisha darling....in case you haven't been told....I have a penis!
By my very nature I'm expanding the bounderies. Its just that I know what I am doing and since I do, what I do is recognized as a male version of the same dance. I understand what you mean but consider this, I'm also a person of African descent and even though I'm light complected, I'm still dark. A shade or two too dark to be featured on a major nightclub stage if I were female and Egyptian.

Egyptians, although very mixed are also people of African liniage, however, in the media and especially in the dance, dark complected dancers are conspicuosly absent. Does this mean that women with obvious African features, skin, hair, facial features have no place in the dance because the nightclubs are opperating on a self hating post colonialists, standard of beuty based on internalized racism? i don't think so. If I look in the general population, I see people of all colors from black to white and every thing in between and they all dance, not on stage, but certainly in social gatherings. Therefore, putting a dark dancer on stage is more of a reflection of the real diversity in the population. Same rational for being a guy dancer. just because something hasn't been placed on the stage there, doesn't mean that we should be confined to those restrrictions. so yes, there are great things happening, but there is a lot that needs to change and can be without destroying the integrity of the dance.

A:I danced in Arab and Greek clubs for some 25 years. I consider myself too old now to fill that bill, but I know that even that experience does not have to limit what one puts on the stage in terms of cultural elements. I did many, many things on the stage that were not considered the norm here in the states, but remained true to presenting in a cultural way. I still do. The biggest difference is that my announcer must explain to the audience what is going on so that the general audience can more fully enjoy what they are seeing.

Regards,
A'isha

Tarik:As it should be.

So since I've been dancing for over 20yrs, if I want to create something on a baladi theme, I can do it. If I want to create something on a shabbi theme I can do it, If I want to expand on sharki, I know how to do it so that the integrity is not lost, although for a lot of people, the very fact that I'm a man is a radical departure from the norm. So as I told the drunk A$$h@!e tonight who was insisting he wanted to see a woman, TOUGH $31T! Its the ladies turn to be entertained! And they were.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LIVE FREE, DIE OLD, DIE HAPPY

 

[Aisha Azar]

DEar Tarik,
Responses in context; some snippage.



Tarik wrote_I think we need to maintain the old traditional style, but that doesn't mean that we cannot be creative and spontainious. I'm a creative person and therefore, I can't sit down and wait to see what they are going to do next. To be honest, sometimes what they come up with is wonderful and sometimes it's pure crap@!

A. writes- Are you saying that the Egyptians can not come up with anything creative and still be true to the dance form?

Tarik:
Nope. If your read my comment, especially at the end, you'll see that is not implied. To restate, sometimes what they come up with is wonderful....
However, I don't think we should have to wait to see what they come up with. In the mean time, use your own creativity. As long as you are true to the dance form, its okay. The solo expression will always be the core of what we do, but its okay to go beyond that boundery. A show as I envision it would include all the elements, past present and future. There would be solos, but then there would also be ensamble pieces, which has already been done since Badia's time, as well as the new element of romantic duets.


A.writes- Forgive me. I got confused because you said you could not sit and wait to see what they re going to do next, in the same paragraph as saying the create wonderful and bad stuff. It sounded like you could not wait for them to dowhat they are already doing...??? I find that their wonderful stuff happens when they are being true to themselves. The bad stuff happens, for example when Reda decides to fuse ballet and and Middle Eastern dance concepts and creates insipid dances for Farida Fahmi, or when Nagwa decides to do Gulf dance and studies it by laying on the couch and making things up. This seems to be a methodology used by many westerners as well.

If you look at Samia Gamal for example, she did a lot of fusion pieces in many of her musicals, as did Naima and Tahia. I think many of those were far more off the mark in spirit and style than a romantic duet, however, the art didn't die or suffer because it was only an addition to, not a replacement of the standard format.

A. writes- While they might have danced to fusion music on occasion ( and mostly just in the movies, I think, where they were told what they would dance to) , they certainly danced as Arabs all the way. There was no western essence in their manifestations and interpretations of the music.


Tarik:Aisha darling....in case you haven't been told....I have a penis!


A. writes- Good for you!!! I do not, yet I have managed to survive quite nicely lo these many years just occasionally borrowing one to play with for awhile.

By my very nature I'm expanding the bounderies.

A. writes- What... and those of us without one are not boundary expanding types? One can expand the boundaries and still stay within the cultural concepts, if one has awareness of what those concepts are and respects them within those boundaries.


Its just that I know what I am doing and since I do, what I do is recognized as a male version of the same dance.

A. writes- By whom? I certainly see that males can do this dance, but there is no "male version". It is a female essenced dance that some men are also performing. We have had this argument before and agree to disagree.



I understand what you mean but consider this, I'm also a person of African descent and even though I'm light complected, I'm still dark. A shade or two too dark to be featured on a major nightclub stage if I were female and Egyptian.


A. writes- Mouna Said is very dark and she eventually got famous enough to dance in Egypt.

Egyptians, although very mixed are also people of African liniage, however, in the media and especially in the dance, dark complected dancers are conspicuosly absent. Does this mean that women with obvious African features, skin, hair, facial features have no place in the dance because the nightclubs are opperating on a self hating post colonialists, standard of beuty based on internalized racism? i don't think so.

A. writes- Neither do I, as I have stated above. There is nothing self hating about liking blondes any more than there is anything self hating about the Swiss wanting to be tanned. Would you chalk that up to colonial self-hatred and internalized racism as well? It is really an attraction to what is different..... ( I mean blondes, here, as the Arabs do, meaning light skinned rather than yellow hair.)


If I look in the general population, I see people of all colors from black to white and every thing in between and they all dance, not on stage, but certainly in social gatherings. Therefore, putting a dark dancer on stage is more of a reflection of the real diversity in the population.


A. writes- But... belly dance is not about the general population any more than being a ballerina or a rock star is about the general population. Any kid with a guitar can play songs, but he can not be a genius in his field and his playing is not professional quality. There is more diversity than we see in the videos of the famous stars, ya know.


Same rational for being a guy dancer. just because something hasn't been placed on the stage there, doesn't mean that we should be confined to those restrrictions. so yes, there are great things happening, but there is a lot that needs to change and can be without destroying the integrity of the dance.

A. writes- There have been male dancers for practically as long as there have been female ones, as I have stated many times. Right now in Egypt, and this is true whether or not you agree or like it, the men on stage in a belly dance capacity are considered to be somewhat less than men. One can not take away the feminine essence of the dance without destroying something, Tarik. It is up to the Egyptians to change this, not up to us. Perhaps they will do that with people like Tito on the scene.I say men can dance all they want and should,but I am ever mindful, as the Egyptians are, that this is a feminine essenced dance and that is the why they see a problem with men dancing it in the first place, as opposed to seeing it as a moral issue based on only sluts dancing it. there is that extra stigma for men that they are doing a womanly job. To deny this is to say that they do not understand their own dance within its cultural context, which they do. the same holds true for the duet issue. The dance is a solo dance. That is the very nature of the dance and you know that is true. It can not be both ways.


Regards,
A'isha

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[taheya]

Raqs Sharqi may have traditionally been performed by females, but that is changing now Aisha as you know with the advent of people like Tito in Egypt. More men are starting to perform raks sharqi and also have been key players in teaching the dance for a long time (yazza hassan, professor Khalil etc).
I agree that we should be true to the dance and strive for authenticity, however, that should not be a reason to suppress inidividuality. I am sure everyone will agree that a good dancer expresses their individuality and innovation. Take Dina as an example, her style was very unique to her and now how many Dina clones do we have??? It has become a bit of a mickey take, we even have a thread in this forum entitiled 'best Dina impersonation!'. Why not try the dance as a duet? Dancers are trying it in Egypt and other places and I cannot see a problem with that.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

Raqs Sharqi may have traditionally been performed by females, but that is changing now Aisha as you know with the advent of people like Tito in Egypt. More men are starting to perform raks sharqi and also have been key players in teaching the dance for a long time (yazza hassan, professor Khalil etc).
I agree that we should be true to the dance and strive for authenticity, however, that should not be a reason to suppress inidividuality. I am sure everyone will agree that a good dancer expresses their individuality and innovation. Take Dina as an example, her style was very unique to her and now how many Dina clones do we have??? It has become a bit of a mickey take, we even have a thread in this forum entitiled 'best Dina impersonation!'. Why not try the dance as a duet? Dancers are trying it in Egypt and other places and I cannot see a problem with that.

Dear Tahiya,
I still say that Tito looks very much Beledi to me as opposed to Sharghi, and in fact somewhere in this forum, Tarik stated that men are doing Sharghi with heavy Beledi influence, so what is the difference,then? I have never seen a native belly dancer do a duet in sharghi, only in folkloric or shaabi context, and those are numerous. Reda does not belly dance and men who teach it are usually teachers, not performers of it. Finally the reason for not doing a duet is the dance that in its soul, it is a solo dance. Its like saying, lets do the Waltz as a solo dance. We can not because it is a couples dance in its meaning and feeling! In performing sharghi as a duet, you automatically lose much of the subtlety of personal interpretation, much of the complexity of movement as complex interpretation and manifestation of the music, and the emotionally internalized elements of the dance all together, because the psychology of the dance is solo.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Mark_Balahadia]

I know more about what's happening in Lebanon and none of the male belly dancers there peform duets with female dancers. I think the Lebanese male dancer would have a major hissy-fit if they had to share the stage with someone else :lol:

Unlike their Egyptian counterparts, the Lebanese are already more familar (and general more comfortable) with men performing the female art of oriental dance. Mosbah was the first male oriental dancer in the Arab world and he set the way for others to follow. There's a quite a few male oriental dancers in Lebanon, including Yusef a guy I met by chance at a party in Sanayeh.

By the way, in Lebanon, everyone thinks male belly dancers are gay, even the most liberal of Beirutis. It's just assumed because gay men are the only guys in Lebanon who would be crazy enough to even venture into a "womens" profession. This may be stereotyping people but Arabs are constantly sterotyping everyone and the sooner people realize this the better off you'll be.

As an aside, I was once walking in Gemmayze to get breakfast and two elementary school kids were hollering at me in what they thought was Chinese (everyone though I was either Chinese/Japanese/or Korean).

 

[Tarik Sultan]

MI know more about what's happening in Lebanon and none of the male belly dancers there peform duets with female dancers. I think the Lebanese male dancer would have a major hissy-fit if they had to share the stage with someone else :lol:

Tarik

That doesn't mean it can't happen, only that no one has had the inspiration to do so. Thy have done it in Turkey, (just not very well).

MUnlike their Egyptian counterparts, the Lebanese are already more familar (and general more comfortable) with men performing the female art of oriental dance. Mosbah was the first male oriental dancer in the Arab world and he set the way for others to follow. There's a quite a few male oriental dancers in Lebanon, including Yusef a guy I met by chance at a party in Sanayeh.

MBy the way, in Lebanon, everyone thinks male belly dancers are gay, even the most liberal of Beirutis.

Tarik

That's probably because they are. When Musbah came out, (no pun intended)he very publicly used the dance to advertise his sexuality and does so on stage, so what else are people to assume? The publicity articles about him were more about him being gay and very little or nothing about dance art, his inspiration, vision etc. You will never brake a stereotype perception until someone comes along who very storngly and clearly, is the opposite. Then people will begin to realize that it is possible not to fit the stereotype.

It's just assumed because gay men are the only guys in Lebanon who would be crazy enough to even venture into a "womens" profession. This may be stereotyping people but Arabs are constantly sterotyping everyone and the sooner people realize this the better off you'll be.

Tarik Doesn't mean anything at all. Even here in the liberal west a guy who is a ballet dancer is assumed to be gay. It only begining to change because of people like Barishnakov who very clearly was not.

Fred Astair, Gene Kelly and Ted Shawn werre all pioners in dance in that they showed Americans a man didn't have to be a "sissy" to be a dancer. In the Middle East, once a person does something, they will suffer from frozen evaluation the rest of their life. If one member in a family does something wrong, the whole family loses honor, which is why from time to time we still hear reports of honor killings even to this day. Therefore because Musbah was/is so flamboyant and in your face about being gay, that is how they see all male dancers

I've met a lot of guys in Egypt and here, who would love to do what I do, but don't because they are afraid of what people will say. These guys are to the best of my knowledge syraight and have given me no reason to think otherwise. Most people in the world want to be part of the herd. Its the rare person who is bold enough to go against the grain and do what they truely want to do. What we have in the Middle East is what is called a self fullfilling prophecy. You declair all female dancers are sluts, all male dancers are fags and guess what? Now everyone is afraid to go near it because of what people will say about them. The majority of the people who do will be women who are, or are too poor/desperate to care and will do whatever it takes to survive, even trading their bodies for finacial stability. With the guys, if he's already gay and effeminate on top of it, what's to stop him? He has nothing to lose because he never had societies approval in the first place. So an artificial situation has now been created which varifies people's misperceptions, and the few who are true mavericas who do not fit the stereotypes are then assumed to be as guilty as the rest.

I knew this situation fully well getting into it and I knew in order to survive, I would have to have a very tough skin and strong sense of self. I've been successful in the arenas that I am because I do not fit the stereotype. I don't look like I'm impersonating a woman, I don't have an effeminate air and I interact freely with my audience with joy and humor. The men in my audiences feel comfortable with me because I relate to them like another guy, (who dresses really weird), the women like me because I look like a man and I enjoy giving them attention and interacting with them.

Now having said all this do I still get called fag? Not to my face, but youtube leaves you open for opinions both good and bad. Thank god the comments I get are overwhelmingly good. But of the bad ones, when I speak with the person privately, its always because they A. misunderstand my intentions, B. are grossly ignorant of their own culture and are not aware that men do dance with their hips C. they are aware of B, but feel that the context, (on stage) is wrong. Of those who were not totally insaine, I've been successful in getting 50% of them to understand and see the dance in general in a new perspective.

I think that as a dancer and an artist, a great deal of what I do is educational and motivational and showing people the potential to strive for, rather than settling for limitation and degradation. And if you search Egyptian belly dance on youtube, a great deal of what you see is the lowest of degrdation.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Dear Tahiya,
I still say that Tito looks very much Beledi to me as opposed to Sharghi, and in fact somewhere in this forum, Tarik stated that men are doing Sharghi with heavy Beledi influence, so what is the difference,then? I have never seen a native belly dancer do a duet in sharghi, only in folkloric or shaabi context, and those are numerous. Reda does not belly dance and men who teach it are usually teachers, not performers of it. Finally the reason for not doing a duet is the dance that in its soul, it is a solo dance. Its like saying, lets do the Waltz as a solo dance. We can not because it is a couples dance in its meaning and feeling! In performing sharghi as a duet, you automatically lose much of the subtlety of personal interpretation, much of the complexity of movement as complex interpretation and manifestation of the music, and the emotionally internalized elements of the dance all together, because the psychology of the dance is solo.
Regards,
A'isha

The foundation of the dance is Raks Baladi, it is the heart and sould of the Egyptian people and is the esence which gives Sharki its life. In terms of terminology, people over there are not always as clinical in differentiating the two as we are. In her National Geographic interview, Lucy said with her own mouth Fil Masr Raks Isharki fil kulli bayt , "In Egypt Raks Sharki is in every house". The next scene was at a street wedding, (where the camera man deliberately focused on the two girls dancing and left the little boy on the saide out of frame, instead of showing all of them).

Everyone I know, including Tito, Ida Nour, Fifi Abdu and others considers what he does Raks Sharki. All the arabs who have since put up videos of him on youtube call him a male belly dancer. As for what is expressed, I would suggest that everyone who reads this post do some research for themselves. Look at Sohair Zaki, Fifi Abdou, Nawa Fouad, and as many Egyptian dancers as you can find and then compare what they do against what Tito does. Look for spirit, personality, complexity of musical interpritation and see if there is a jaring difference. If what he is doing is not Sharki the differences will either be very obvious, or so slight as to not merit any attention.

Finally, the problem here, is one of perspective. You have an all or nothing dogmatic view of the situation, where as I and those who agree with me have a more inclucive view. We are not suggesting that we do away with the solo female dance, what we are saying, is that it is okay, in addition to the traditional form, to create new ways of expressing it. Therefore, withing the context of a performance, one would have female solo dances, male solo dances, folkloric or theatrical tabluex, duets. It will not detract or cheapen the art form, it will inject new life and vitality into it. In Egypt if you go to a night club, in the course of the evening they have solo oriental dances, folk dances, ensamble oriental dances, some god awful pseudo balletic horse crap done by emaciated badly trained and coordinated male dancers who also dance back up behind the solo and ensable oriental dancers, not to mention the mother of all abominations reeeeeally bad Russian fusion dancer in next to nothing. If that hasn't killed the art of Oriental dance, I can't see how the addition of male dancers and duets would.

 

[Mark_Balahadia]

Mashallah, that was a long response!

Mosbah was the first male dancer but many have come after him who are "less" flamboyant. And yes, Mosbah is famous because he is so open about his sexuality. But you have to remember that Mosbah comes from a traditional Arab/Muslim background so his whole existence is a rejection of traditional values.

The Arab World is not the West. Even in liberal Beirut, traditional values reign supreme and social change takes a long time. It's almost impossible to fight thousands of years of history especially in regard to "entertainment". Most Arabs either move to the West or they deal. So telling (most) Arabs that belly dancers arn't whores or that male belly dancers are not gay isn't going to get you anywhere.

For example, even my liberal-minded gay Egyptian friend told me he thought Tito was gay. He said he loved his show. For people who love Tito's dancing, they may think he's gay but it's not an important since Tito's dancing and personality on stage IS what's most important. Arabs who want to be entertained won't care whether he's gay or not. And the ones that do won't go to his shows...so these people are automatically irrelevant.

I don't have the time or the patiences to constantly lecture everyone and anyone on what my dancing is all about. It's a waste of time. I'd rather have my dancing speak for itself. If people think I'm gay, who bloody cares?! Does it even matter? It isn't important when it comes down to it.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Mashallah, that was a long response!

Mosbah was the first male dancer but many have come after him who are "less" flamboyant. And yes, Mosbah is famous because he is so open about his sexuality. But you have to remember that Mosbah comes from a traditional Arab/Muslim background so his whole existence is a rejection of traditional values.

The Arab World is not the West. Even in liberal Beirut, traditional values reign supreme and social change takes a long time. It's almost impossible to fight thousands of years of history especially in regard to "entertainment". Most Arabs either move to the West or they deal. So telling (most) Arabs that belly dancers arn't whores or that male belly dancers are not gay isn't going to get you anywhere.

For example, even my liberal-minded gay Egyptian friend told me he thought Tito was gay. He said he loved his show. For people who love Tito's dancing, they may think he's gay but it's not an important since Tito's dancing and personality on stage IS what's most important. Arabs who want to be entertained won't care whether he's gay or not. And the ones that do won't go to his shows...so these people are automatically irrelevant.

I don't have the time or the patiences to constantly lecture everyone and anyone on what my dancing is all about. It's a waste of time. I'd rather have my dancing speak for itself. If people think I'm gay, who bloody cares?! Does it even matter? It isn't important when it comes down to it.

I'm very passionate about this art. Let it be understood, that for the most part, I do not care if people feel I'm gay or not, or if Titio is gay or not. I simply show people that their assumptions are simply that assumptions, based on faulty foundations.

I was just explaining what the paradigm is and what it would take to change it. It will not happen overnight, however, if the artistic level of what we do is high, then it will not matter and people will gradually realize the way they have to some extent in the west, some are some aren't, BUT CAN THEY DANCE?

So when all is said and done, I agree, what is important is the artistic and entertainment value. However, I do educate as much as i can in media like this, youtbe etc for the benifit of both men and women who want to do this dance, but may become discouraged when they encounter the disyunctional side of the dance and the culture its from.