Shimmies With Knees??

Erina

New member
ok well i could have just been mistaught, but i was instructed to do my egyptian shimmy from the knees. it still looks smooth...but the knees are definitely there.

snap. it starts in the knees, and just gets so fast the audience concentrate on the hips- the knee-jerk reaction of the movement of the knees. The knees don't stop moving.

A 'class; I do, people still use their knees, simply because they haven't built up the speed of the 'smooth' shimmy, but they will of course
 

nuriyyayasalam

New member
Well there are various shimmies,but concerning this with the knees,i believe is more Egyptian..When i'd been in Egypt at april for the Nile group festival,all teachers told us that the real shimmy comes from the knees...Personally,i prefer the one coming from the hips,i find it more impressive!;)
So,the decision is up to u!
BYE!!!!


Dear Natasao,
may be you wasn't at all teachers at the Nile group, I am a teacher there too, and I am teaching basics and foundations at the Festival, and the question about the knee shimmies appears often.
If we are looking at the pionneers dancers in Egyptian Oriental Dance like Samia,Tahia, Naima, we cannot discover with them the knee shimmies, they show the shimmies from the hips. So why the knee shimmy should be called Egyptian shimmy, when there is no roots,
the knee shimmy is more a modern developpment in the kinds of shimmies, which is used today by many modern dancers, as well based in Cairo, but we should not called it Egyptian Shimmy

Nuriyya
 www. NURIYYA .com, Buikdans - Belly Dance - Danse Orientale - Orientalischer Tanz
 

Suheir

New member
Dear Natasao,
may be you wasn't at all teachers at the Nile group, I am a teacher there too, and I am teaching basics and foundations at the Festival, and the question about the knee shimmies appears often.
If we are looking at the pionneers dancers in Egyptian Oriental Dance like Samia,Tahia, Naima, we cannot discover with them the knee shimmies, they show the shimmies from the hips. So why the knee shimmy should be called Egyptian shimmy, when there is no roots,
the knee shimmy is more a modern developpment in the kinds of shimmies, which is used today by many modern dancers, as well based in Cairo, but we should not called it Egyptian Shimmy

Nuriyya
*www. NURIYYA .com, Buikdans - Belly Dance - Danse Orientale - Orientalischer Tanz
Do you know when the "Egyptian" knee shimmy appeared?
 

Sofia

New member
It is quite obvious that the so called "knee shimmy" as a sort of vibration, has developed from the smaller vibration shimmy. These shimmy types are to be seen throughout Egyptian dancers, not only the ones of the passed 20 years. However, music has changed since the days of Samia, Tahiya etc. there the music did not call for faster shimmies, the hip shimmy (carried out in a sitting position, as many Egyptian call it with knees quite bent and no tuck) would do. Futher it was hardly layerd and not done over longer periods of time.
Hanan a dancer famous arond 1980 was famous for her shimmies (vibration type), Mona did vibrations and on Fifi one is able to see the change to the larger "knee shimmy". So since everyone is free to name movements - why not Egyptian Shimmy - it is certainly not Turkish or other.
 

NatasaofGreece

New member
Hi Nuriyya!
Nice to talk with u..Firstly,i didn't want to offend u or the Egyptian style in anyway..Of course i couln't be in all classes at the Nilegroup Festival,but all teachers i had(even Farida Fahmy)exept Hassan Khalil,told us that the real Shimmy comes from the knees..And as a result we all thought that this might be the Egyptian Shimmy!Even dancers were dancing like that! however i'm glad if it's not true cause i really prefer shimmy comming from the hips as i said ;)
I'll be in Egypt next April 4 nilegroup seminars & i'd be glad to attend ur lesson! Nice to talk with u again..
Kisses
 

chryssanthi sahar

New member
Hi Nuriyya!
Nice to talk with u..Firstly,i didn't want to offend u or the Egyptian style in anyway..Of course i couln't be in all classes at the Nilegroup Festival,but all teachers i had(even Farida Fahmy)exept Hassan Khalil,told us that the real Shimmy comes from the knees..And as a result we all thought that this might be the Egyptian Shimmy!Even dancers were dancing like that! however i'm glad if it's not true cause i really prefer shimmy comming from the hips as i said ;)
I'll be in Egypt next April 4 nilegroup seminars & i'd be glad to attend ur lesson! Nice to talk with u again..
Kisses


Natasa dear, I also was in the class of Farida Fahmy in Cairo with you and I remember her telling that she actually doesn't use shimmies, because it is a newer invention and that she only noticed, that most dancers today make the shimmy with the knees (or better to say with stretched knees). So the shimmy she showed us was not out of her personal experience, but out of her observation of the modern dancers. Opposite to this, Professor Khalil (in whose seminar I was also participating together with you honey ;)), answered explicitly YOUR question to him about the shimmy, telling that the only real Mediterranean shimmy, so to say classical shimmy, is the one made with bended knees, but produced with the upper part of the legs and being most visible at the hips. Even Farida Fahmy said that this is the "rural" (fellahi) shimmy, when she was asking us to demonstrate a shimmy and I demonstrated this "hip" shimmy. So the classical shimmy is the one with bended knees, concentrating on the hip. The modern Cairo shimmy (this is how Liza Laziza called it), is the one made with stretched knees. To be honest I hate the modern shimmy, because a) it ruins your knees, b) you cannot integrate it that well in steps and hip figures.
By the way, also Dr. Mo Geddawi and Momo Kadous (both of them two of the most important Egyptian teachers), explain the shimmy the same way Professor Khalil does. To be honest, I was really relieved, when I visited Professor Khalil's class and I saw him doing the same shimmy I had learned from my not famous Egyptian teacher Leila, from whom I mainly learned the Egyptian belly dance. She did only bended-knee-hip shimmies (and her shimmies were fantastic!). So me personally is not ever going to do this "modern" unhealthy shimmy.
As about the "Chou Chou" shimmy, Egyptian dancers use it only on certain parts of music and actually quite rare.
By the way, Ariella dear, there is no Egyptian shimmy produced with the heel. This is American shimmy.
 

mbellI

New member
Hi chryssanthi,

I am pretty new to belly dancing & have been struggling with my shimmy ever since. I was taught the "knee shimmy". But I couldn't get it to move smoothly & fast as most dancers do which causes my movement to be jerky & inconsistent. The more I practiced, I find that the more I couldn't do it & I start having knee pain.

I have been questioning myself, do I have the right "shimmy" technique? If yes, then, why I couldn't do it as well as others. hmm.. where does the energy of shimmy coming from.. from the hips or knees..

I'm truly happy to know that there are shimmy from the hip (bended-knee-hip shimmy). I would love to relearn my shimmy. Hopefully, I won't have knee pain anymore. Do you know any resources which I could refer to on how to do proper shimmy drills without injury to the knees? Thanks.

Another question, how to do shimmy without turning it into vibrations?

Thanks alot!
 

nuriyyayasalam

New member
dear Natasa
welcome in Cairo, welcome at the Nilegroup Festival, but also welcome to the International Saray for Oriental Culture, Prof Khalil's private Middle Eastern dance and research institute in Cairo.
Looking forward to discuss with you next April all the topics concerning the shimmies, this is like a never ending story, depending from which point of vue you are looking for it.

Each teacher has his own point of vue, but we should always refer to the roots.

Nuriyya


Hi Nuriyya!
Nice to talk with u..Firstly,i didn't want to offend u or the Egyptian style in anyway..Of course i couln't be in all classes at the Nilegroup Festival,but all teachers i had(even Farida Fahmy)exept Hassan Khalil,told us that the real Shimmy comes from the knees..And as a result we all thought that this might be the Egyptian Shimmy!Even dancers were dancing like that! however i'm glad if it's not true cause i really prefer shimmy comming from the hips as i said ;)
I'll be in Egypt next April 4 nilegroup seminars & i'd be glad to attend ur lesson! Nice to talk with u again..
Kisses
 

chryssanthi sahar

New member
Dear mbellI.

It is very difficult to explain the shimmy technique only by words, without having the opportunity to demonstrate it. There was a great video back at the end of the 80ies with Zahra, a great Arabian dancer who lives in Germany, where she was demonstrating this classic shimmy technique I'm talking about, among other basic moves and steps of the Arabian belly dance. But this video is unfortunately not available any more:(
The only thing I could tell you is, that you have your knees slightly bended, you start moving the upper legs up and down (and not forth and back like with the stretched-knee shimmy) so that your hip also moves up and down and you try to speed up so that the movement completly transfers to the hip and to the butt. But probably it is difficult to understand what I mean, if you cannot watch it.
By the way, what do you mean with vibration? Shimmy is actually a vibration, but an isolated one (only hip, only shoulders, only belly. O.k. the latter is a very rare and difficult shimmy).
 

chryssanthi sahar

New member
Dear Nuriyya.

I'm also looking forward to visit the next Nile Group Festival in April and especially the classes of Professor Khalil. Are you also going to give a class in April? With what subject? I'll be glad to visit it and see you again. It is such a pity, that I cannot come to Professor Khalil's seminars now in October (Ich meine die Ausbildung), but I have to go to Greece at this time.
See you in April.
 

mbellI

New member
Hi Chryssanthi,

Thanks for your reply. I will try to imagine what you mean. I guess I should not use the knee to make the movement, instead, I should start from the thigh?

As for shimmy vs vibration. My teacher explained to me that for shimmy, you need to be able to see your hips go up & down equally & fast too. She said that I can call it an exaggerated vibration. & vibration are more like small & fast movements. You will see your fat (or flesh?) moving like you got electrocuted.. haha..

She told me alot of new students usually do vibration when they are asked to do shimmy because it is easier to do. & she told me that my shimmy is actually a vibration & not shimmy.

So, I'm confuse. :(
 

nuriyyayasalam

New member
Dear Chrysannthi,
yes it's a pitty that you cannot join us in October, but you are welcome you start as well the teachertraining cours with Prof Khalil in Cairo with the following Module in February 05 - 12, 2008. To recuperate the topics of the missed classes from the first module in Oct 2007, we can give some extra classes during the week in February and you gain a credit by following accredited workshops with Prof Khalil, as at the Nile group festival. We think this a good possibility for all dancers and teachers, who didn't know on time about our teacher training certifcate cours in Cairo and like to join in, and not to wait one year more, before the next course will start; but you can enter the Certification cours with each module and you can book the modules as well individually.

At the Nile group Festival, I am the specialty teacher for basics and fondations in Egyptian Belly Dance, the classes are multilevel classes, everybody is welcome, who likes to deepen, widen and refresh his dance techniques.

By the way, the Shimmy Video with Zahra, you are talking about, has been realised by the Studio Arabeska in Frankfort/Germany, under the direction of Ditlinde Bedauia Karkutli and Prof Dr Hassan Khalil.

See you in April, or in February
Nuriyya

Dear Nuriyya.

I'm also looking forward to visit the next Nile Group Festival in April and especially the classes of Professor Khalil. Are you also going to give a class in April? With what subject? I'll be glad to visit it and see you again. It is such a pity, that I cannot come to Professor Khalil's seminars now in October (Ich meine die Ausbildung), but I have to go to Greece at this time.
See you in April.
 

nuriyyayasalam

New member
Dear mbellI,
As I said before, many teacher, many different explaination for shimmys;
but shimmy is in itself a vibration, but the origine of the vibration, of the impulsation can be different

and many shimmys have their origine based in the nature, we can look, as your teacher said, for Electrically Energy, but a well Earthqwake, vibrations throug muscle tension, and others more

but as Chryssanthi said, it is difficult to describe shimmies by words, you have to watch, to do and to to feel them.

Nuriyya


Hi Chryssanthi,

Thanks for your reply. I will try to imagine what you mean. I guess I should not use the knee to make the movement, instead, I should start from the thigh?

As for shimmy vs vibration. My teacher explained to me that for shimmy, you need to be able to see your hips go up & down equally & fast too. She said that I can call it an exaggerated vibration. & vibration are more like small & fast movements. You will see your fat (or flesh?) moving like you got electrocuted.. haha..

She told me alot of new students usually do vibration when they are asked to do shimmy because it is easier to do. & she told me that my shimmy is actually a vibration & not shimmy.

So, I'm confuse. :(
 

chryssanthi sahar

New member
As for shimmy vs vibration. My teacher explained to me that for shimmy, you need to be able to see your hips go up & down equally & fast too. She said that I can call it an exaggerated vibration. & vibration are more like small & fast movements. You will see your fat (or flesh?) moving like you got electrocuted.. haha..

She told me alot of new students usually do vibration when they are asked to do shimmy because it is easier to do. & she told me that my shimmy is actually a vibration & not shimmy.

So, I'm confuse. :(

:confused::confused::confused: Me too! To be honest, it is the first time I hear such a thing. Where does she has THAT from??? I haven't heard it from any Egyptian or other teacher. Anyway, as Nuriyya said (confirming what I had said:lol:), we can discuss long about shimmies, vibrations and co., but it is like describing tastes or odours. You won't get it, if you don't see, feel and try it ;)
 

chryssanthi sahar

New member
By the way, the Shimmy Video with Zahra, you are talking about, has been realised by the Studio Arabeska in Frankfort/Germany, under the direction of Ditlinde Bedauia Karkutli and Prof Dr Hassan Khalil.

Exactly:D It is the best instruction video I know, with authentic Arabic techniques! How could it be different, since Prof Khalil was involved with it?:D I am his disciple anyway, I've always been, even before I met him in person;) It is pity, that this video with Zahra is not available any more.

See you in April, or in February
Nuriyya

Most probably in April. I have many projects for the next months and I am going to travel a lot, so unfortunately I won't make it to Prof. Khalil's seminar in February. I hope I'll make it next autumn:pray:
 

mbellI

New member
By the way, the Shimmy Video with Zahra, you are talking about, has been realised by the Studio Arabeska in Frankfort/Germany, under the direction of Ditlinde Bedauia Karkutli and Prof Dr Hassan Khalil.

Hi Nuriyya, do you think it is possible for Prof Dr. Hassan to post the video online again? :) or do you know of any good instructional videos that able to show a good shimmy?
Thanks.

Me too! To be honest, it is the first time I hear such a thing. Where does she has THAT from??? I haven't heard it from any Egyptian or other teacher. Anyway, as Nuriyya said (confirming what I had said), we can discuss long about shimmies, vibrations and co., but it is like describing tastes or odours. You won't get it, if you don't see, feel and try it

Hmm... I guess, it doesn't really matter whether it is shimmy or vibration. The best thing is we should feel comfortable doing it? :)

I will practice hard & seems like by changing my focus to the thigh movement, my knees doesn't hurt that much any more. I'm so happy that I can practice more comfortably now. Thanks for all your advices.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
No, not from the knees!

I'm coming in on the tail end here, so its possible someone else mentioned this. First of all, there really is no such thing as a knee shimmy. Movements are priduced by muscles, not joints and bones. The knees are joints, not muscles.

There are many types of shimmies. The most common one is where the hips are wabbling side to side. This is actually generated by alternately working the hamstring muscles, which run along the back of the thighs. The knees should be slightly bent to do this. This is the real Egyptian way, as like most of the movement vocabulary, the movements comes from the local social dances of the ordinary people.

A problem that I frequently notice, is that many people tend to sit way too deeply to do it, which causes the knees to stick out way more than they should. There is no reason to do it from a dep plie, (sp?). As for the so called modern shimmy, Its really not so modern. Once again, if you watch the local social dances, you will see that people do many types of shimmies. The modern shimmy is just a smaller moer compact version. In stead of letting the hips do a wide wabble, its kept more closer, smaller, or compact. Many people teach doing it with straighened legs, but this can potentially damage your knees. You can achieve the same look by just not using the full range of motion in your hamstrings, in other words, make the range of motion smaller and you will get a tighter tooking more compact shimmy.

For walking, you will have to use a different set of muscles. I use the muscles in my hips and wiggle them from side to side. This leaves my leg muscles free so that I can step whereever I want to. Its also a very common Egyptian move. You can see a very crude version of it at 1:08 in this video:



There are also vibrations, which are move quivery, which are generated by jiggling the gluttes, but that's a whole other type of move.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Hamstring driven shimmies

Here is an example of the hamstring shimmy I described earlier. Fifi Abdu has one of the best, clearest and most relaxed shimmies ever. You see it at about 2:08 in this video:

 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Okay, here's what I've been taught. Please correct me if needed.

1. Egyptian shimmy, a la Raqia Hassan--
-- Stand with the legs ALMOST straight, very little bend in the knees at all. Bend and straighten the knees alternately. This shimmy gives the look of the vibration moving more side to side across the belly than up and down with the hips.

2. bent knee shimmy--
--Stand with the legs BENT, and bend and straighten the knees alternately. With BENT knees this shimmy makes the vibration look like it's moving up and down at the hips.

3. Then there's the glute/oblique shimmy -- I'm not sure which muscles are actually working, but this is the one I use for travelling. I vibrate my hip, with the focus on one hip or the other when travelling. This shimmy doesn't seem to happen with the knees at all, since I can do it seated.

Now which is the more folk or fellahin shimmy? Tarik, is the number 3 the one you use when travelling? it sounded like it from the description.

Oh, and there's a 4th shimmy, which I was taught was CALLED a vibration shimmy, and that's the one where you let your heels come off the ground and bounce back onto the ground slightly. Ansuya teaches this on her videos.
 
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