Dance History: Your Questions

[Andrea Deagon]

Hello all. I am at work on a book on the ancient histories of belly dance, and I am interested in what questions dancers have that they would like to see answered. So -- what do you want to know? I know where the evidence takes me, but I also want to be sure that I give dancers something that will answer the questions they have. This history goes from the Paleolithic era to about 400 AD (so it does not include the Roma), covers Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greek world and Roman empire, along with a few other side trips. I'm interested in any issue you might want information on, including things like "I've heard that xyz, is that really true ..."

I'd appreciate your help in focusing my work!

Joy in dance,

Andrea Deagon

 

[Aisha Azar]

Ancient historyh???

Hello all. I am at work on a book on the ancient histories of belly dance, and I am interested in what questions dancers have that they would like to see answered. So -- what do you want to know? I know where the evidence takes me, but I also want to be sure that I give dancers something that will answer the questions they have. This history goes from the Paleolithic era to about 400 AD (so it does not include the Roma), covers Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greek world and Roman empire, along with a few other side trips. I'm interested in any issue you might want information on, including things like "I've heard that xyz, is that really true ..."

I'd appreciate your help in focusing my work!

Joy in dance,

Andrea Deagon

Dear Andrea,
In many years of study,I have never found ANY evidence that belly dance HAS an ancient history. From what I have found,it appears to be pretty much a stage entertainment developed in the late 19th- early 20th century. I have read Roman and other accounts of dances witnessed that had some similar movement base, but there was no evidence that is was "belly dance". I have found some evidence of movements that are similar to belly dance, but not the dance itself, especially anything as far back as hundreds of thousands of years in the paleo (prehistoric) era. Are you talking belly dance specifically? Can you be more specific about what you are discussing in your work?
The reason that I am asking is that today, it seems that people are so confused about what belly dance is and I think we need to be very clear and very careful about what we refer to as "belly dance".
With warmest regards,
A'isha

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

Dear Andrea.

I agree with Aisha, that you have to give a closer definition of what you call "belly dance". Are you talking just about a dance who includes movements of the pelvis and the hips, or are you talking about a dance who has same characteristics in the structure of the movements and the choreography like the Middle Eastern dance of today (Raqs Sharqi)? In the second case, I think that it is very difficult to do a realistic research, because we have no real evidences. There where no Videos and DVS before Christ:lol: All we can tell about the ancient dances is just theory and speculation, based only on pictures, sculptures and descriptions in texts. But through those sources it is absolutely impossible to reconstruct the dances.
By the way, what are your sources?

 

[Shanazel]

A'isha and Chryssanthi have already made the points I would make, so I'll just add a series of ditto marks. I see, Andrea, that you have been a dancer since 1975. Is belly dance a particular passion of yours?

 

[Aisha Azar]

History, etc.

Dear Group,
For those of you who are not familiar with Andrea's work, she is one of the most respected and renowned true researchers in the field of Middle Eastern dance. If I were going to ask someone a question about the history of belly dance, Andrea would be that person because she does not have an ego based agenda. I have the very greatest respect for her, and those who know me, know that I do not lavish such compliments lightly.

I can say with all confidence that this book will be well worth reading.
I hope that people will ask her questions pertaining to her subject matter because the answers that they receive will be far less subjective and more based on true research than what she wants to see as an outcome.

One area where I differ from a lot of people in the field is my take on the folkloric root movements of belly dance. Many people feel that this is enough to say that belly dance has an ancient history. I do not see this folkloric root base as having any effect on the purpose or meaning of belly dance. Belly dance is a much separate dance in its meaning, purpose essence and feeling, from these folk dances. The king of Saudi Arabia is pretty much at least distantly related to many of the poorest Bedouin there, but they have nothing else in common, only that tenuous tiny bit of DNA; not lifestyle, not basic beliefs or ethical systems, they probably will never even meet. Belly dance is like this with its distant relatives, the folkloric dances. They share in common some movement DNA and that is it. The movements even change to some extent as they are utilized mostly from a very different posture and muscle tension.This is why I asked my question to Andrea. She may see this differently than I do and I am interested in her view point.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Aisha Azar]

History, etc.

Dear Andrea,
Regarding your call for questions. Mine would be,
"What mythologies about the dance do you find to be the most perpetuated among dancers?"
Thank you and regards,
A'isha

 

[cathy]

Hello all. I am at work on a book on the ancient histories of belly dance, and I am interested in what questions dancers have that they would like to see answered. So -- what do you want to know? I know where the evidence takes me, but I also want to be sure that I give dancers something that will answer the questions they have. This history goes from the Paleolithic era to about 400 AD (so it does not include the Roma), covers Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greek world and Roman empire, along with a few other side trips. I'm interested in any issue you might want information on, including things like "I've heard that xyz, is that really true ..."

Andrea Deagon

Dear Andrea,

I applaud the idea of academic research on Middle Eastern dance being undertaken and published and I am aware that your background qualifies you to do such research and find an academic publisher. But given the lack of resources available for the much more recent past I am having trouble imaging how much evidence there really could be on dance of any kind from the Paleolithic era to about 400 AD!

The nature of ME dance dance during the French or English occupations of Egypt or on the introduction of ME dance into the West (Sol Bloom 1893, etc.) seem murky and controversial enough!

I imagine you will have to rely on art depictions and very old texts about "quivering thighs" etc. for a study of the ancient roots and those can leave so much unsaid. Isn't it hard to know whether music was really part of the events depicted in ancient art, as opposed to gymnastics? How can you tell *how* people moved, never mind the attitude "essence" context and so on.

No one has said so but I imagine the usual questions will relate to origin myths such as childbirth, temple priestesses, pharonic rituals, mentions of dance in the Bible and so on. Surely this is all a matter of speculation? From what I understand, these are all myths that appeal to the imagination and not based in evidence.

All that being said, I will certainly read your book.

Cathy

 

[samsied]

I would read your book! What would I be interested in? Well, I appreciate it when writer/researchers describe their research process and list their sources even if they are sources in another language and difficult to access. Also, as other's mentioned, what you mean by "belly dance" (just because there are so many different definitions used and it is hard to know where someone is coming from without knowing what they mean by "belly dance"). I also like it when people are honest about what the evidence says, what their informed opinion is, and what is pure speculation. Speculation is fine and valuable, I just like it when people are honest about it.

Otherwise I am most interested in reading about the topics you know most about. Oh, pictures, maps and diagrams are great whenever possible!

 

[cathy]

ancient origins

Hi Andrea,

Try this link for opinions people offered on the ancient origins issue:

http://forum.orientaldancer.net/dan...ance-your-opinion.html?highlight=YOUR+opinion

I wonder whether you are going to examine each common origin myth and address possible evidence for or against each one, and if you have a new theory altogether.

I agree with what others have posted here--you are going to have to further define terms because "belly dance" is a confusing one, particularly if you are going back to ancient times. Personally I don't even know when Arabic started being spoken in Egypt so I don't know whether the general term "raks" would apply.

Cathy

 

[belly_dancer]

hello Andrea.... GOOD LUCK!!!!
have you read "Woman's Work... the 1st 20,000 years"... (I hope that is not just the sub-title...) written by??? a woman archeologist, who I believe lives in CA>>>>>
anyhow.... mentioned NOTHING about belly dance... but the chapter on the fringe skirt.... hello!!! it screamed "belly dance" to me!!!
fascinating read if you love history!!!

of course "belly-dance" as it is now is very far distant from it's origins... however... EVERY thing (& person) has it's parents & it would be interesting to know some of the roots that belly dance emerged from....

I would like to see more "evidence" (either for or against) the childbirth connection....
& something (to hopefully disagree) in regards to the "harem" fantasy....

cannot wait for your book!

 

[Shanazel]

As soon as I read the library copy of Woman's Work, I went out and got my own. Excellent book. I was reading it from the view point of a weaver and fiber artist, but had the same thoughts about the fringed skirt and fringed bedlah. The author talked about her increased sense of power when she moved and felt the fringed skirt swing with her, and I knew exactly what she meant.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Costuming/clothing

As soon as I read the library copy of Woman's Work, I went out and got my own. Excellent book. I was reading it from the view point of a weaver and fiber artist, but had the same thoughts about the fringed skirt and fringed bedlah. The author talked about her increased sense of power when she moved and felt the fringed skirt swing with her, and I knew exactly what she meant.

Dear Shanazel,
Interesting.... I guess I look at clothing and costuming differently. I see garments and accessories as not necessarily empowering, but more like defining and enhancing the person or character. ( This seems to be the psychological job of both clothing and costume all over the world, nearly as I can tell!!) Perhaps my feelings about it come from being a theatrical costumer for so many years, but what I see is that clothing and costuming help us to give clues to ourselves and to to others about who and what we are. Some of this is cultural and some of it is environmental, too, I would guess. In my everyday life, I rarely put on make-up or try to dress up...if anything, I am rather a dressed down person. In my dance life, I would have to say I am rather dressed down, too, in that my costuming is always rather on the conservative side. I am not out to shock anyone, I am instead out to do my best by the dance and I costume so that the dance is sort of noticed more than me on a personal level, I guess. The swinging of fringe is about how much it enhances the dance for me. It is one reason why I no longer wear really long fringe. I figured out that it really did little for the dance itself.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Shanazel]

Hi, A'isha. We're talking about two different things. You are (If I am interpreting your comments correctly) interested in how fringe enhances (or doesn't enhance) the dance as an entity in itself, and your points are valid. It is a practical and aesthetic viewpoint that is interesting and I am glad you brought it up. What I am talking about is how the weight and swing of fringe or coined belts while I am dancing makes me feel- a purely emotional and physical response to external stimuli, if you will. I wear full tiered skirts in real life for much the same reason: I love the way the weight and sway of the skirt makes me feel.

but what I see is that clothing and costuming help us to give clues to ourselves and to to others about who and what we are.

That can very well be true- you ought to see my fourteen year old daughter and some of the statements she makes! Clothing and costume can just as easily be disguises and red herrings across the trails of whoever we really are. Let's see, there is my Professional Legal Assistant Disguise, my Holder of a Season Ticket to the Symphony Disguise, my Blend into the Crowd at the Machine Gun And Cannon Show Disguise- and yes, my Belly Dance Teacher at the Rec Center Disguise.

What kind of costume do you find serves your vison of the dance the best?

Shanzel

 

[belly_dancer]

Dear Shanazel,
Interesting.... I guess I look at clothing and costuming differently. I see garments and accessories as not necessarily empowering, but more like defining and enhancing the person or character. ( This seems to be the psychological job of both clothing and costume all over the world, nearly as I can tell!!) Perhaps my feelings about it come from being a theatrical costumer for so many years, but what I see is that clothing and costuming help us to give clues to ourselves and to to others about who and what we are. Some of this is cultural and some of it is environmental, too, I would guess. In my everyday life, I rarely put on make-up or try to dress up...if anything, I am rather a dressed down person. In my dance life, I would have to say I am rather dressed down, too, in that my costuming is always rather on the conservative side. I am not out to shock anyone, I am instead out to do my best by the dance and I costume so that the dance is sort of noticed more than me on a personal level, I guess. The swinging of fringe is about how much it enhances the dance for me. It is one reason why I no longer wear really long fringe. I figured out that it really did little for the dance itself.
Regards,
A'isha

A'isha... have you read THIS book????

 

[Aisha Azar]

Costume

A'isha... have you read THIS book????

Dear Belly_dancer,
I have not read this specific book, but I also did not refer to it in any way. I did refer to the basic psychology of costume and clothing, which I have read about in some detail since I am a professional theatrical costumer as well as a dancer. The "Dress For Success" theory is an old and respected one, and crosses every single human border and ethnic group and tribe and urban cowboy threshold. It sounds like the author of the book perfectly understands such things as the "Power Suit" and other such articles of clothing. Her power suit happens to have fringe and she refers to the process, according to Shanzel as "empowerment". Makes perfect sense!
In every society, people dress for empowerment who can afford to do so.
Animals even do it, according to people like Jane Goodall, who noticed that the alpha male chimpanzees had better hair than the other males, and when a new chimp would become the alpha, pretty soon HIS hair looked better!
Anyway, no, I have not read the book, and I do not claim to know everything she was taking about, but I do understand the concept that Shanazel is discussing.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[belly_dancer]

Hi, A'isha. We're talking about two different things. You are (If I am interpreting your comments correctly) interested in how fringe enhances (or doesn't enhance) the dance as an entity in itself, and your points are valid. It is a practical and aesthetic viewpoint that is interesting and I am glad you brought it up. What I am talking about is how the weight and swing of fringe or coined belts while I am dancing makes me feel- a purely emotional and physical response to external stimuli, if you will. I wear full tiered skirts in real life for much the same reason: I love the way the weight and sway of the skirt makes me feel.



Shanzel

yes "A".........I agree... IF you decide that belly dancing did NOT exist until 1910's-20's...
HOWEVER...... THERE WERE previous dance forms that were ancestors to what is now referred to as "belly-dance"...
& if you read this book (as Shaz did)... I think (hope!?!) you would be like... OMG... this reminds me of bellydance!!! (not once did this author refer to BD by the way).....
MARIA!!!!!
By the WAY>>>> there is (if I recall correctly) a huge part about a fringe belt that is part of a greek ritual?!?!?!?!?! (M's imput here I hope!!)
Shaz.. do YOU remember that part??
I do need to re read this... (although it is one of the few books I have already read more than one time!!!) I TOO ACTUALLY purchased it after I read it as a recommendation/ borrowed book!!!!!!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance, etc.

yes "A".........I agree... IF you decide that belly dancing did NOT exist until 1910's-20's...
HOWEVER...... THERE WERE previous dance forms that were ancestors to what is now referred to as "belly-dance"...
& if you read this book (as Shaz did)... I think (hope!?!) you would be like... OMG... this reminds me of bellydance!!! (not once did this author refer to BD by the way).....
MARIA!!!!!
By the WAY>>>> there is (if I recall correctly) a huge part about a fringe belt that is part of a greek ritual?!?!?!?!?! (M's imput here I hope!!)
Shaz.. do YOU remember that part??
I do need to re read this... (although it is one of the few books I have already read more than one time!!!) I TOO ACTUALLY purchased it after I read it as a recommendation/ borrowed book!!!!!!

Dear Belly_dancer,
I am not denying that there are other dances that have some similarities to belly dance... but that does not make them belly dance. The author has my respect for not referring to what ever she described as such. Belly dance is a very specific dance that was developed from a certain set of social, economic and other factors and influences, from a specific time and with a specific meaning and purpose. Many things might sound similar without being the dance itself!
And now I must be off to teach my beginners the difference!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I think we have to be clear whether we are talking about the performance aspect Raks Sharki or the various social dance forms Raks Baladi. This is one of the reasons why I perfere to use the Arabic rather than the term Belly Dance.

I do agree that although we do have references from the Roman period describing hip centered dances, they do not give enough detail to determine how close they were to any of the dances we see today.

We do know also that there were professional dancers during that period, but what they did was not the same as what we are use to seeing on stage now because it wasn't developed untill the 20th century. Therefore, I think it would be less problematic to divide the work in two parts, one focusing on the role of professional entertainers, which would then lead up to the 20th century, the other focusing on social dances in the region.

The only problem here is the lack of detailed reliable information. I don't think we can relate anything from the paleolithic age to what is done today, either socially or professionally. Any references would have to deal with the concept of dance in general in that region, rathera specific form. We do know people danced, but what types of movements they used etc, is not retrivable information.

 

[Shanazel]

I really am interested in your costuming for belly dance concepts, A'isha. Rather than hijack poor Andrea's thread further, I am hoping you will find it in your heart and schedule to start another thread on the subject and elucidate. Shanazel

 

[Aisha Azar]

Costume thread

I really am interested in your costuming for belly dance concepts, A'isha. Rather than hijack poor Andrea's thread further, I am hoping you will find it in your heart and schedule to start another thread on the subject and elucidate. Shanazel

Dear Shanazel,
I agree that this is getting far afield, so if you would like, I will start a costuming thread if you have any specific questions about my theory for costuming dancers. It's pretty simple, though and won't be a very long thread!!
Regards,
A'isha