Dumb Question, But I Have to Ask

[Shanazel]

A belly dancing president in a 21 yard skirt... now there's a candidate I can get behind.

 

[Eve]

ok, I can understand both sides to the coin. It also seems to alter peoples view if you are talking of folkloric or orientle.

If you think it's just a dance, treat it as such, men are invited, there are no moves considered to be masculine/feminine (just as emotions are not gender specific)

If you want to start adding cultural baggage to it, it gets cloudy, do we impose our cultural stereotypes on the dance or ideas we think are in another culture that may not be relevant in our own?

I've only just taken some workshops with male dancers/teachers and I'd be more than happy to get anywhere near their skill level. I'm looking to book one for workshops next year I was so impressed.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

ok, I can understand both sides to the coin. It also seems to alter peoples view if you are talking of folkloric or orientle.



If you want to start adding cultural baggage to it, it gets cloudy, do we impose our cultural stereotypes on the dance or ideas we think are in another culture that may not be relevant in our own?

Dear Eve,
Dances are what they are in large part BECAUSE of the cultural baggage. Dance does not grow out of something separate from the culture in which it is developed, but as part of that larger picture.
When we impose our own cultural attitudes, etc, onto a dance form, we then change that dance form to the point that it becomes something other than what it was. This is one of the reasons that I am very much in favor of calling the very diverse dance forms that have been somewhat influenced by belly dance or Middle Eastern folkloric, by other names and leaving off the misleading term, "belly dance".
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

ok, I can understand both sides to the coin. It also seems to alter peoples view if you are talking of folkloric or orientle.

If you think it's just a dance, treat it as such, men are invited, there are no moves considered to be masculine/feminine (just as emotions are not gender specific)

If you want to start adding cultural baggage to it, it gets cloudy, do we impose our cultural stereotypes on the dance or ideas we think are in another culture that may not be relevant in our own?

I've only just taken some workshops with male dancers/teachers and I'd be more than happy to get anywhere near their skill level. I'm looking to book one for workshops next year I was so impressed.

Dear Eve: I'm going to share something with you and the forum in two parts, but first let me say, You are correct. I'll tell you something else, so am I and so is A'isha. If you look closely at what I've been saying, I haven't been saying she's wrong, I've been saying its a matter of context and for some people a matter of opinion. There are some people in the Arab world who believe just as she does. There are some people who see it the way I do. In all of human history no society has ever had a 100% consensus on any topic.

Here is a reply I got from a lady living in Kuwait who commented on Tito's video. It was to the effect that blelly dancing was for Arabs only. Then I showed her my video dancing in Hussain. I then shared with her my performance video. I asked her whether she considers what we did Baladi or sharki and what she considers the difference between the two to be:

Re: Re: Re: ace it belly dancing is for arabs only


first , i agree about what u said

and about ur question, i think that most ppl cant see the differences between the two but, in my opinion Raks Sharki is what professionals do its a little bit elagent its what we call belly dancing, on the other hand Raks baladi is more of the style we see in the streets and in places lik al hussain and all and we can call it in to many kinds of dances not only belly dancing maybe we can call it to the Sa'eeDy dance (the one with Asaya).

i think that both types complete each other each one of us or each dancer start learning in the street or by watching ppl and then he or she can complete it by becoming a professional and adding the professional style to it.

thats what i think
btw i started dancing since i was 6 ,, i was in Eypt because of the invation of Iraq in Kuwait we stayed there for 9 months and all what i was doing is watching old Egyptain movies and Sharehan and Nelley's Fawzeer , more over i have it already in my blood my aunts r really good dancers and, i used to watch them all the time , now im 22 years old i still have them same way of dancing im crazy about it , i love all kinds of dancing even some of the western and tha latino , i learned how to dance the Salsa , Marengue and Bachata . (less)
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[Tarik Sultan]

ok, I can understand both sides to the coin. It also seems to alter peoples view if you are talking of folkloric or orientle.

If you think it's just a dance, treat it as such, men are invited, there are no moves considered to be masculine/feminine (just as emotions are not gender specific)

If you want to start adding cultural baggage to it, it gets cloudy, do we impose our cultural stereotypes on the dance or ideas we think are in another culture that may not be relevant in our own?

I've only just taken some workshops with male dancers/teachers and I'd be more than happy to get anywhere near their skill level. I'm looking to book one for workshops next year I was so impressed.

Dear Eve: As promised, me again. In this letter the I discussed the issue of whether or not the dance is feminine essenced. I explained my perspective that it is when women do it, but not when men do it and what she taught. This is her reply:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ace it belly dancing is for arabs only

Well what u said made sense..

I agree with u that what r u and tito are doing is Raks sharki and I told u what i think about the difference between the two,
I don't know why she keeps on saying that but, maybe because that we always see sharki dance as something sexy because u express what u r feeling by moving your body in a sexy way that goes along with the music and mostly the music we use do dance express love feelings and by understanding the lyrics we dance with our feeling expressing love and romantic feelings, women usually look sexy why they r dancing because of their bodies and the way we usually express the feelings , but i don't see male dancers being feminine if they r dancing sharki because your nature and your body is completely different ur expressing the feeling and the rhythm in the same moves because finally we r dancing the same dance but u r expressing it more masculine and with out dala' because of your nature , i think when dancers dance they want to express and show a feeling of sadness , happiness or love and that's what we r doing when we r dancing sharqi but women take it with their nature and men do it with their nature.
just like tito's and the girl with pink dress, they both danced really nice but, she was very sexy wearing a tight dress showing her body movements and expressions and tito was great doing his moves amazingly, both did the same thing both danced to the same song but they looked different tito looked like a man and she looked like a women.
I like watching men dancing sharki the way that u and tito doing it its very professional and its making u feel really happy and make other people enjoy watching u as well , Raks sharqi is not only for women , men can dance freely its a kind of art and you r presenting it in a great masculine way
and by the way , i know to many males that dance sharki in a nice way and with out being feminine and i see it as raks sharki (less)
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[Eve]

I'm not exactly sure what I'm being taken to task on?

I've not suggested that this or any other dance evolved in a cultural vacuum, that would be stupid.

What I am trying and struggling to do :lol: is say, each to their own. I have no problem in calling it bellydance, or any other name to be honest.
A teacher I very much respect summed it up, forget 'art' you're shaking your arse & your tits....enjoy it!
not pc but I can't help but smile when I think of this and see randa point to her butt cheek and shimmy.

You can either see the dance as dance and that is not to say throw out any understanding of where it's from and how it developed, which is how my earlier comment may have come across or try and replicate a culture that is not mine which in turns changes the dance in to something else.

I'll bow out as I think this is a difficult subject to discuss this way, it's very easy for ideas to be misconstrued.

 

[Eve]

Hi Tarik,

Thank you for your comments, your posts appeared as I posted mine. I agree much is a matter of opinion and don't want it to appear like I'm dismissing anyones opinion
If people want to see, raks, bellydance, oriental..as some kind of goddess dance, that's up to them.

A good example (for me) of seeing the dance as the same but different is Khaled & Nour. I think they look lovely.
YouTube - Nour & Khaled Mahmoud Candelabra Belly Dance

 

[Mark_Balahadia]

Oh FYI, I'm nitpicking here but Syria and Lebanon didn't exist when Badia Masabni came to Cairo. At the time, modern day Syria and Lebanon were called "Greater Syria" or "Bilad El Sham" and was a protectorate of France. Once Badia came back from Egypt, Greater Syria was split into two new countries, Lebanon and Syria.

Interestingly and yet confusingly, Bilad El Sham can also denote the Levant or "Mashreq". The region includes Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and the western most settled areas of Jordan. Arabs still call the peoples in this region "Shami" due to similar dialect and culture.

"A Trade Like Any Other" by Karin van Nieuwkerk, has the best details of that time and place I've found yet. In Chapter Two: Female Entertainment in Nineteenth Century Egypt, it talks about the return of female dancers to Cairo after a long official banishment when Egypt became a British protectorate. The area it discusses became the one most frequented by Westerners for European-style recreation.

From pages 38-39:

The Ezbekiyya Gardens became the center of 'Cairo by night"... theaters, the opera, coffeehouses and cafe-chantants (music halls) were built in the neighborhood . In several music halls -- particularly in Eldorado, the first nightclub in Cairo -- shows with native dancing were offered. At the turn of the century, the local dancing, for the first time, was called belly-dancing.

Chapter Three: Female Entertainment in the Twentieth Century says that there were three nightclubs in the Ezbekiyya area in 1910 but the number really took off in the 1920s and '30s. Badia Masabni, a Syrian entertainer, started her Egyptian career in 1921, specializing in male roles as a dancer and actress. She married the man who managed the troupe she was in, left him in 1926, and opened her own sala(Arabic for nightclub). She sold her nightclub in 1950 and retired to Syria.

The chapter mentions on page 46 Badia's female colleagues -- other women who owned salas -- the sisters Insaf and Ratiba Rushdi, Meri Mansur and Beba Ezzeddine (who bought Badia's place later).

I have to say that there are times when van Nieuwkerk's book repeats some mistakes and myths from other writers. She's really best when talking about the research she did herself -- and she is a cultural anthropologist who worked in Cairo. I haven't found anything that contradicts her own research.

Hope that helps!

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Dear Eve,
Dances are what they are in large part BECAUSE of the cultural baggage. Dance does not grow out of something separate from the culture in which it is developed, but as part of that larger picture.
When we impose our own cultural attitudes, etc, onto a dance form, we then change that dance form to the point that it becomes something other than what it was. This is one of the reasons that I am very much in favor of calling the very diverse dance forms that have been somewhat influenced by belly dance or Middle Eastern folkloric, by other names and leaving off the misleading term, "belly dance".
Regards,
A'isha

In light of my two previous posts and all the others that came before it, I'd like to state for the record that I do not radically disagree with anything you have said. I feel it is a matter of context and personal point of view. Yes the dance does come out of a cultural context and is an expression of that. Therefore, in order to do it with the same integrity as a native, one must be aware of that fact.

I look at it the same way I do learning a language. You can have 3 individuals. One learns in a school where they have no contact with the native population other than what they read in books. Will they learn the language, yes, but it will be very clinical and technical and lacking charisma. The other two individuals first learned in a school, but then spent extencive time either living in the a community with that population, the country of origin, or a combination of the two. They will speak the language with all the nuances of the natives, they will know the slang terms etc, because they are among the people. What they express will be alive, yet one of them may still have an accent, while the other has no detectable accent at all.

Regardless of the accent or not, the language will only be changed if the speakers begin throwing in German or Russian words into the vocabulary. If they are doing this, then they are in fact changing and distorting it. There is nothing wrong with that if its an outgrowth of the circumstances they find themselves in, however, if they are going to teach it, they should let their students know that this is not the pure language, this is the language as spoken by the people of this country who now live in Germany, or Russia.

To anyone who asks me about male professional dance in the ME, I am always sure to explain to them the context of what I am doing. To my students I explain to the the context of why I teach them to express certain things that I don't.

Perhaps what you perceive as feminine essece I perceive simply as sensuality and emotion, in which case, the disagreement is simply a matter of semantics. Other than that, I don't really see the huge difference between what you teach the dance as being and what I do. To quote someone:

"Belly Dance is the physical manifestation of and visual compliment to the music". The dancer interprits the abstract imagery of the music through movement and emotional essence. This dance is part of a cultural heritage and the movements are an expression of this as well. Like all forms of dance, belly dance is defined in part by its movements (though not completely). In striving to perfect a system for teaching the dance, I have developed a method based on 10 fundamental movements".......
Fundamental of Egyptian Belly Dance Raks Sharghi by A'isha Azar.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Dear Eve,
Dances are what they are in large part BECAUSE of the cultural baggage. Dance does not grow out of something separate from the culture in which it is developed, but as part of that larger picture.
When we impose our own cultural attitudes, etc, onto a dance form, we then change that dance form to the point that it becomes something other than what it was. This is one of the reasons that I am very much in favor of calling the very diverse dance forms that have been somewhat influenced by belly dance or Middle Eastern folkloric, by other names and leaving off the misleading term, "belly dance".
Regards,
A'isha

In light of my two previous posts and all the others that came before it, I'd like to state for the record that I do not radically disagree with anything you have said. I feel it is a matter of context and personal point of view. Yes the dance does come out of a cultural context and is an expression of that. Therefore, in order to do it with the same integrity as a native, one must be aware of that fact.

I look at it the same way I do learning a language. You can have 3 individuals. One learns in a school where they have no contact with the native population other than what they read in books. Will they learn the language, yes, but it will be very clinical and technical and lacking charisma. The other two individuals first learned in a school, but then spent extencive time either living in the a community with that population, the country of origin, or a combination of the two. They will speak the language with all the nuances of the natives, they will know the slang terms etc, because they are among the people. What they express will be alive, yet one of them may still have an accent, while the other has no detectable accent at all.

Regardless of the accent or not, the language will only be changed if the speakers begin throwing in German or Russian words into the vocabulary. If they are doing this, then they are in fact changing and distorting it. There is nothing wrong with that if its an outgrowth of the circumstances they find themselves in, however, if they are going to teach it, they should let their students know that this is not the pure language, this is the language as spoken by the people of this country who now live in Germany, or Russia.

To anyone who asks me about male professional dance in the ME, I am always sure to explain to them the context of what I am doing. To my students I explain to the the context of why I teach them to express certain things that I don't.

Perhaps what you perceive as feminine essece I perceive simply as sensuality and emotion, in which case, the disagreement is simply a matter of semantics. Other than that, I don't really see the huge difference between what you teach the dance as being and what I do. To quote someone:

"Belly Dance is the physical manifestation of and visual compliment to the music". The dancer interprits the abstract imagery of the music through movement and emotional essence. This dance is part of a cultural heritage and the movements are an expression of this as well. Like all forms of dance, belly dance is defined in part by its movements (though not completely). In striving to perfect a system for teaching the dance, I have developed a method based on 10 fundamental movements".......
Fundamental of Egyptian Belly Dance Raks Sharghi by A'isha Azar.

Sharif: DJ Actor and Native of Luxor Egypt


Myself dancing Baladi style in Al Husain Cairo Egypt

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

Tarik,
Not sure how you think quoting me disproves anything I say about the feminine essence of the dance. It is , after all, I who am saying it and I am pretty sure about what I mean. Read CULTURAL CONTEXT in that, loud and clear. I stand by that. Sexuality,even among lower animals, has a feminine and masculine nature and expression. In belly dance the essence of that happens to be feminine, just as it is masculine in Ardeh. Nor do I see how two or three peoples' opinions stack up against the majority of the culture. We can both of course only speak in generalities and that should be evident to anyone following any discussion at any time. Nothing, anywhere is ever 100% (except the vote for Saddam Hussein as president in Iraq, it is said).
A'isha

 

[Shanazel]

Myself dancing Baladi style in Al Husain Cairo Egypt

Pretty good for a kid in a tee shirt and a pair of baggy britches!:clap:

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Tarik,
Not sure how you think quoting me disproves anything I say about the feminine essence of the dance. It is , after all, I who am saying it and I am pretty sure about what I mean. Read CULTURAL CONTEXT in that, loud and clear. I stand by that. Sexuality,even among lower animals, has a feminine and masculine nature and expression. In belly dance the essence of that happens to be feminine, just as it is masculine in Ardeh. Nor do I see how two or three peoples' opinions stack up against the majority of the culture. We can both of course only speak in generalities and that should be evident to anyone following any discussion at any time. Nothing, anywhere is ever 100% (except the vote for Saddam Hussein as president in Iraq, it is said).
A'isha

Simply quoting you to show the similarities between our opinion of the dance. We both agree its an emotion element that gives it its character. As I said perhaps our differeing opinion on that character is simply a matter of semantics.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Pretty good for a kid in a tee shirt and a pair of baggy britches!:clap:

:redface: Thank you!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance, etc.

Simply quoting you to show the similarities between our opinion of the dance. We both agree its an emotion element that gives it its character. As I said perhaps our differeing opinion on that character is simply a matter of semantics.

Tarik,
Perhaps, but you still seem to me to insist that the dance has no particular gender essence and I can see clearly that it does, which is just one of the reasons it is considered a female occupation in countries of origin. I suppose, that I should say "the vast majority of people in countries of origin" so that you do not think I mean every single person.
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Tarik,
Perhaps, but you still seem to me to insist that the dance has no particular gender essence and I can see clearly that it does, which is just one of the reasons it is considered a female occupation in countries of origin. I suppose, that I should say "the vast majority of people in countries of origin" so that you do not think I mean every single person.
A'isha

Like i said, I understand why you say so, but I simply feel its a matter of context. At the moment Sharki is perceived by the majority as a female occupation because when it was developed, there was no role for men.

However, what I'm trying to show you and others on the forum, is that even within the culture, people have different ways of looking at it. What I say is not based on the way I would like things to be. I would like it if everyone acknowledged that is is an artfrom that is legitimate for both sexes, but that is not the case. I would like it if people could recognize that a female dancer is strictly and artist and not neccessarily a prostitute, but that is not the case either. You do have valid reasons for saying what you do, and If you notice, I never said you were wrong. However, I also have very valid reasons for saying what I am saying. They are based on over 20yrs of experience in the field, years of friendships with people in the Middle Eastern communities here as well as in culture experience, observations and conversations with people In Palestine/Israel, In Turkey, In Morocco and mostly IN Egypt. Not only am I saying it, but I am also proividing visual and writen evidence to substantiate what I have learned and heard and experienced in those 20 some odd years. A ppoint of view which does not negate or invalidate you, but just shows the divierse perspectives that exist.

However, you continually fail to realize what I am pointing out and continually try to imply that I am either self delusional, or misinformed. Why its so impossible for you to accept the validity of what I am saying, even down to something as simple as whether or not a Middle Eastern person who pays me a compliment is sincere and not just trying to get into my pants is well......I suppose the lady in Cairo, a former member of a dance troupe, wife and mother, observant muslim woman who recently made the hajj was trying to get into my pants when she sent me a letter of support after someone had sent me a very nasty comment on youtube. Perhaps she believes what they say about Black men and thinks I can make it :lol:stretch all the way to Cairo! God, can you imagine the recoil?!

You also seem to have a much narrower view of the dance than I do. While you focus strictly on Sharki, I see Sharki and Baladi as being parts of a much larger cultural whole, which, from the interview I showed and the letter, show exactly that point of view, which is what I have been saying all along.

Maybe when you eventually get the opportunity to visit Egypt and spend time in the local communities both urban and rural, as I have, the things that I am saying to you and their perspective will make more sense.

Till such time...

Osman Balatta Interview #1


Osman Balatta Interview #2

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

Tarik,
You accuse me of being "narrow" in my view, while I see you as being too all inclusive of the opinions of a few rather than taking the majority opinion as legitimate of the culture. Just because I do not see it your way does not mean I am any more narrow in my view than you appear to me.
As for visiting Egypt, you also seem at every turn to negate the fact that I have spent most of my adult life in the company of Arabs, many of whom have been Egyptian, and I state their opinion and not my own. I do not have to go there to have constant exposure to the people. In fact my life every day has more Arab influence than most people who spend three weeks a year over there, with dancers and entertainers, etc. Things for the most part have not changed as far as the attitude toward the dance and it is still an occupation for women. Men who take it up are considered to be gay because it IS a woman's job with feminine implications in countries of origin. Even the implication of gay carries different connotations there than here. You say you have 20 years of experience. I have 33 with the dance and about 30 working for, living with, crying and laughing with, attending the deathbeds and funerals of, the births, weddings of, the baptisms and Eids of listening to many generations of, cooking for and with, caring for babies of, writing for and about, Arabs. I know one hell of a lot more than you give me credit for just because I don't go to Egypt for a few days every year. I have seen people go and come back pretty much the clueless people that they went there as. By saying this I do not mean you, since I think that there are some very few people who think the way that you do, but not nearly the majority. What I resent is your implication that what you are saying is the reality of life as a dancer in Egypt and it is not. Even Tito is seen as "less than a man" because he makes his living as professional dancer. People think he is gay. He is proof that it is still not acceptable for a man to make his living as a dancer. It is not socially correct for women to do so, either, but it is at the very least, seen as the work of females. This IS the context of the dance within the culture and there is no glossing over that.
I have no personal agenda. I support male dancers through my actions and my words. Just ask those that I have had my company hire, ask those that I have coached, ask those that I cheer on from the sidelines. I see them in every way as capable as women when they acknowledge the essence of the dance. I am not in any way excluding men from dancing, but they need to recognize what the dance is before they can perform it. If I were to perform Ardeh, I would need to recognize, accept and work within the boundaries of the meaning and essence of the dance. Belly dance deserves the same from people of all genders.
I have doubts about the compliment you mentioned as sincere because I have known literally hundreds of young Arab guys and I know what they want and how they think. That's why. You can ask any Arab woman and most Arab guys and they will tell you that when a young man approaches a dancer he doesn't know and gives a compliment, he is more than likely after one thing. While this is a general statement, it is also the most likely scenario. I wised up to that very quickly and have had it confirmed many, many times. I would be naive to ignore it.
You show me one letter and try to convince me that all people feel that way. I can show you many things that point the other way. Beledi and Sharghi are part of the same cultural whole, but they are as distinct as Saidi and Sharghi, or Ghawazi and Sharghi, or for that matter, Debke and Sharghi, or Ardeh and Sharghi, etc. They are not the same dance.
Yes, maybe I will visit Egypt some day. I have a standing invitation to do so from Hallah Moustafa and from several Egyptian families. When I do,I am pretty sure that I will hear the same thing from the Egyptians when they are at home as I do when they are visiting or living here. That this is a dance for women and that it has feminine essence.
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Tarik,
You accuse me of being "narrow" in my view, while I see you as being too all inclusive of the opinions of a few rather than taking the majority opinion as legitimate of the culture. Just because I do not see it your way does not mean I am any more narrow in my view than you appear to me.
As for visiting Egypt, you also seem at every turn to negate the fact that I have spent most of my adult life in the company of Arabs, many of whom have been Egyptian, and I state their opinion and not my own. I do not have to go there to have constant exposure to the people. In fact my life every day has more Arab influence than most people who spend three weeks a year over there, with dancers and entertainers, etc. Things for the most part have not changed as far as the attitude toward the dance and it is still an occupation for women. Men who take it up are considered to be gay because it IS a woman's job with feminine implications in countries of origin. Even the implication of gay carries different connotations there than here. You say you have 20 years of experience. I have 33 with the dance and about 30 working for, living with, crying and laughing with, attending the deathbeds and funerals of, the births, weddings of, the baptisms and Eids of listening to many generations of, cooking for and with, caring for babies of, writing for and about, Arabs. I know one hell of a lot more than you give me credit for just because I don't go to Egypt for a few days every year. I have seen people go and come back pretty much the clueless people that they went there as. By saying this I do not mean you, since I think that there are some very few people who think the way that you do, but not nearly the majority. What I resent is your implication that what you are saying is the reality of life as a dancer in Egypt and it is not. Even Tito is seen as "less than a man" because he makes his living as professional dancer. People think he is gay. He is proof that it is still not acceptable for a man to make his living as a dancer. It is not socially correct for women to do so, either, but it is at the very least, seen as the work of females. This IS the context of the dance within the culture and there is no glossing over that.
I have no personal agenda. I support male dancers through my actions and my words. Just ask those that I have had my company hire, ask those that I have coached, ask those that I cheer on from the sidelines. I see them in every way as capable as women when they acknowledge the essence of the dance. I am not in any way excluding men from dancing, but they need to recognize what the dance is before they can perform it. If I were to perform Ardeh, I would need to recognize, accept and work within the boundaries of the meaning and essence of the dance. Belly dance deserves the same from people of all genders.
I have doubts about the compliment you mentioned as sincere because I have known literally hundreds of young Arab guys and I know what they want and how they think. That's why. You can ask any Arab woman and most Arab guys and they will tell you that when a young man approaches a dancer he doesn't know and gives a compliment, he is more than likely after one thing. While this is a general statement, it is also the most likely scenario. I wised up to that very quickly and have had it confirmed many, many times. I would be naive to ignore it.
You show me one letter and try to convince me that all people feel that way. I can show you many things that point the other way. Beledi and Sharghi are part of the same cultural whole, but they are as distinct as Saidi and Sharghi, or Ghawazi and Sharghi, or for that matter, Debke and Sharghi, or Ardeh and Sharghi, etc. They are not the same dance.
Yes, maybe I will visit Egypt some day. I have a standing invitation to do so from Hallah Moustafa and from several Egyptian families. When I do,I am pretty sure that I will hear the same thing from the Egyptians when they are at home as I do when they are visiting or living here. That this is a dance for women and that it has feminine essence.
A'isha

As I keep saying, context and perspective. In you see it as a woman's dance. while I see it from the perspective of yes,but thats only because until quite recently Its only been done on stage by women. The people who I have observed, spent time with and lived with in Egypt do not make such a sharp distinction between the Sharki and Baladi. The letter I showed you is just an illustration of a perspective that is shared by quite a lot of people, not one or two. They see Sharki and Baladi as basically the same thing, just that Sharki is the more dramatic and professional version of the same dance they all learn and do in the Street. This is the attitude that all my friends had, whether Palestinian, Lebanese or Egyptian.

As a matter of fact, the Palestinians I associated with were very political and conservative and whenever I went to a political cultural event, I'd have at least 10 people reminding me no belly dancing allowed, (male or female). I was not in costume, just street clothes doing the same Baladi style we all did together back at the club room. To them it was all belly dance, just that one was in a social context and the other in a professional context. Their opinions and pertspectives are just as valid as those of your friends and are reflective of the way a significant amount of people think, that is all, and all I am explaining to you is that this perspective exists and is valid, I am not making it up. And if you can't acknowledge and accept that this IS in fact the way that many people see it and that it is a valid opinion, then I'm sorry, but in this instance you are being narrow.
I keep telling you again and again, I understand what you are saying, because I have experienced and heard and seen the same opionions, however, there are a lot of people who have a slightly different take on it and you knbow what? THEY ARE BOTH RIGHT! Context, and perspective.

As for Tito's sexuality. Never slept with, don't know anyone who has, would much rather watch Discorery Channel than find out. Do people in Egypt think he's gay for doing what they consider woman's work? HELL YEAH THEY DO, just like we think all male hair dressers and interior decoraters are gay, and? fact is, a lot of them are, AND? However, a lot of them are not. As to male dancers in Egypt, in general. Most of them are considered gay, even the ones in the Folk Troupes, know why. Because dance in general, world wide, is still considered woman's work. How do I know this about Egyptian male dancers? Because I know male dancers from several troupes in Egypt and they all told me how rich guys would try to pick up the guys back stage after the shows. Fact is, a lot of the guys are gay, but not all of them are. This doesn't phase me one way or another because you knbow what? In the entertainment industry, the same thing happens. Everyone knows, whether you are an actor, model, singer dancer, male or female, you will be propositioned. Its pretty much assumed by a lot of people in our culture that many entertainers have slept their way to the top. Granted, its not true of every single person, but it does happen and so what? Telling me people think Tito is gay is like Dugh, really? It makes as much impact on me as saying most people think Dina, or any female dancer is a prostitute. So what? Are we really going to quibble about whether its better for people to think one is a prostitue or a gay? What people think is one thing, having a strong core to stick by the truth of who and what you are regardless is what really matters in the final analysis.

As for visiting there, you really should, and see life from the perspective of all the classes there, not just one. I agree, there are many people who go there and come back just as ignorant as when they left. That is why I don't spend the majority of the time hanging with other dancers, but with ordinary places, with people who are not dancers, in places that are not very glamerous where even a lot of Egyptians fear going.
Doing so will allow you to see and understand things in a way that you can't otherwise and I'm not just talking about the subject of this discussion. When you go there, you will se what I mean. There are just things that you can't understand in books, or even from conversations or living with the folks here, its just completely different.

So once again, for the bazillionth time. I agree with you, its just that there are other ways of looking at the situation. What you call feminine essence, I may be calling emotion, whatever it is, the fact remains, that when I dance, people see that I have what they call the feeling, they see that as they say, I heve an ear for the music. do they find it strange to see me in a costume, when first they see me ALWAYS, but after the first few minutes, they all agree, I'm damn good at what I do, and you know what I AM. Whether I have feminine essence or no feminine essence, I'm damn good at what I do and I know how to entertain a room and I sure as hell know what I am doing out there. If anyone doesn't like it, they don't have to stay, but those who do stay and keep coming back week after week after week love it, because I do it with authenticity, dignity and artistic merit, regardless of the essence and in the end THAT IS WHAT REALLY MATTERS!

Regards

A self deluded dancer lacking in feminine essence, not having enough common sense to know that any Arab, (male or female), who pays him a compliment is really only after his ass.

 

[belly_dancer]

As I keep saying, context and perspective. In you see it as a woman's dance. while I see it from the perspective of yes,but thats only because until quite recently Its only been done on stage by women. The people who I have observed, spent time with and lived with in Egypt do not make such a sharp distinction between the Sharki and Baladi. The letter I showed you is just an illustration of a perspective that is shared by quite a lot of people, not one or two. They see Sharki and Baladi as basically the same thing, just that Sharki is the more dramatic and professional version of the same dance they all learn and do in the Street. This is the attitude that all my friends had, whether Palestinian, Lebanese or Egyptian.

As a matter of fact, the Palestinians I associated with were very political and conservative and whenever I went to a political cultural event, I'd have at least 10 people reminding me no belly dancing allowed, (male or female). I was not in costume, just street clothes doing the same Baladi style we all did together back at the club room. To them it was all belly dance, just that one was in a social context and the other in a professional context. Their opinions and pertspectives are just as valid as those of your friends and are reflective of the way a significant amount of people think, that is all, and all I am explaining to you is that this perspective exists and is valid, I am not making it up. And if you can't acknowledge and accept that this IS in fact the way that many people see it and that it is a valid opinion, then I'm sorry, but in this instance you are being narrow.
I keep telling you again and again, I understand what you are saying, because I have experienced and heard and seen the same opionions, however, there are a lot of people who have a slightly different take on it and you knbow what? THEY ARE BOTH RIGHT! Context, and perspective.

As for Tito's sexuality. Never slept with, don't know anyone who has, would much rather watch Discorery Channel than find out. Do people in Egypt think he's gay for doing what they consider woman's work? HELL YEAH THEY DO, just like we think all male hair dressers and interior decoraters are gay, and? fact is, a lot of them are, AND? However, a lot of them are not. As to male dancers in Egypt, in general. Most of them are considered gay, even the ones in the Folk Troupes, know why. Because dance in general, world wide, is still considered woman's work. How do I know this about Egyptian male dancers? Because I know male dancers from several troupes in Egypt and they all told me how rich guys would try to pick up the guys back stage after the shows. Fact is, a lot of the guys are gay, but not all of them are. This doesn't phase me one way or another because you knbow what? In the entertainment industry, the same thing happens. Everyone knows, whether you are an actor, model, singer dancer, male or female, you will be propositioned. Its pretty much assumed by a lot of people in our culture that many entertainers have slept their way to the top. Granted, its not true of every single person, but it does happen and so what? Telling me people think Tito is gay is like Dugh, really? It makes as much impact on me as saying most people think Dina, or any female dancer is a prostitute. So what? Are we really going to quibble about whether its better for people to think one is a prostitue or a gay? What people think is one thing, having a strong core to stick by the truth of who and what you are regardless is what really matters in the final analysis.

As for visiting there, you really should, and see life from the perspective of all the classes there, not just one. I agree, there are many people who go there and come back just as ignorant as when they left. That is why I don't spend the majority of the time hanging with other dancers, but with ordinary places, with people who are not dancers, in places that are not very glamerous where even a lot of Egyptians fear going.
Doing so will allow you to see and understand things in a way that you can't otherwise and I'm not just talking about the subject of this discussion. When you go there, you will se what I mean. There are just things that you can't understand in books, or even from conversations or living with the folks here, its just completely different.

So once again, for the bazillionth time. I agree with you, its just that there are other ways of looking at the situation. What you call feminine essence, I may be calling emotion, whatever it is, the fact remains, that when I dance, people see that I have what they call the feeling, they see that as they say, I heve an ear for the music. do they find it strange to see me in a costume, when first they see me ALWAYS, but after the first few minutes, they all agree, I'm damn good at what I do, and you know what I AM. Whether I have feminine essence or no feminine essence, I'm damn good at what I do and I know how to entertain a room and I sure as hell know what I am doing out there. If anyone doesn't like it, they don't have to stay, but those who do stay and keep coming back week after week after week love it, because I do it with authenticity, dignity and artistic merit, regardless of the essence and in the end THAT IS WHAT REALLY MATTERS!

Regards

A self deluded dancer lacking in feminine essence, not having enough common sense to know that any Arab, (male or female), who pays him a compliment is really only after his ass.

BUT I BET YOU HAVE A GREAT ASS!!!!!:shok::shok: (OOPS WAS THAT RUDE??!?!?!??) JUST AN ATTEMPT TO LIGHTEN THE MOOD..... & besides (or should I say behinds?!?!? eeekk another bad joke!!) belly dance (sharqi OR baladi!!!) is fab for ones ass!!!!
by the way.... was up til all hours last night, re reading "a trade like any other".....
wish I wrote down pg #'s (OH KHARMINE>>> where for art thou???)
but something along the lines.... bellydance= "stylized baladi"
plus LOTS more very interesting research.........

 

[Kharmine]

My mother speaks a variety of Castilian that has not been spoken in greater Spain for over a century. Her experience of Spanish customs and traditions would have more in common today with rural, old-fashioned people in Spain's hinterlands than with modern Spanish city dwellers.

This is because her great-grandparents immigrated from Spain, and eventually her grandparents from Mexico, and her parents found their way to an isolated Spanish colony in New Mexico. All that time, the language they spoke stayed the same, they did little intermingling with others outside their colonies and they had little influence from their changing ancestral countries.

If I went to Spain today, the language, customs and traditions that my mother grew up with would be regarded as quaint and antique. And if I came back after living and working there for some time and told her what my experiences had been like, I'm sure she would be often startled and even disbelieving.

No, she's never been there herself. But so steeped is she in one group of Spaniards' experiences that she cannot conceive that other Spaniards -- even over time and distance and differences of culture -- could be anything but what she knows. All my experiences and conclusions, therefore, would be suspect.

This is an example of how well-meaning people with different backgrounds can both be right about what they love. And how it can be that at least one of them will regard the other's different experiences and resulting conclusions as some kind of challenge to their own.

I do wish that those who think only their experiences, and only their conclusions are correct on this issue would think about that.