ok, I can understand both sides to the coin. It also seems to alter peoples view if you are talking of folkloric or orientle.
If you want to start adding cultural baggage to it, it gets cloudy, do we impose our cultural stereotypes on the dance or ideas we think are in another culture that may not be relevant in our own?
ok, I can understand both sides to the coin. It also seems to alter peoples view if you are talking of folkloric or orientle.
If you think it's just a dance, treat it as such, men are invited, there are no moves considered to be masculine/feminine (just as emotions are not gender specific)
If you want to start adding cultural baggage to it, it gets cloudy, do we impose our cultural stereotypes on the dance or ideas we think are in another culture that may not be relevant in our own?
I've only just taken some workshops with male dancers/teachers and I'd be more than happy to get anywhere near their skill level. I'm looking to book one for workshops next year I was so impressed.
ok, I can understand both sides to the coin. It also seems to alter peoples view if you are talking of folkloric or orientle.
If you think it's just a dance, treat it as such, men are invited, there are no moves considered to be masculine/feminine (just as emotions are not gender specific)
If you want to start adding cultural baggage to it, it gets cloudy, do we impose our cultural stereotypes on the dance or ideas we think are in another culture that may not be relevant in our own?
I've only just taken some workshops with male dancers/teachers and I'd be more than happy to get anywhere near their skill level. I'm looking to book one for workshops next year I was so impressed.
"A Trade Like Any Other" by Karin van Nieuwkerk, has the best details of that time and place I've found yet. In Chapter Two: Female Entertainment in Nineteenth Century Egypt, it talks about the return of female dancers to Cairo after a long official banishment when Egypt became a British protectorate. The area it discusses became the one most frequented by Westerners for European-style recreation.
From pages 38-39:
The Ezbekiyya Gardens became the center of 'Cairo by night"... theaters, the opera, coffeehouses and cafe-chantants (music halls) were built in the neighborhood . In several music halls -- particularly in Eldorado, the first nightclub in Cairo -- shows with native dancing were offered. At the turn of the century, the local dancing, for the first time, was called belly-dancing.
Chapter Three: Female Entertainment in the Twentieth Century says that there were three nightclubs in the Ezbekiyya area in 1910 but the number really took off in the 1920s and '30s. Badia Masabni, a Syrian entertainer, started her Egyptian career in 1921, specializing in male roles as a dancer and actress. She married the man who managed the troupe she was in, left him in 1926, and opened her own sala(Arabic for nightclub). She sold her nightclub in 1950 and retired to Syria.
The chapter mentions on page 46 Badia's female colleagues -- other women who owned salas -- the sisters Insaf and Ratiba Rushdi, Meri Mansur and Beba Ezzeddine (who bought Badia's place later).
I have to say that there are times when van Nieuwkerk's book repeats some mistakes and myths from other writers. She's really best when talking about the research she did herself -- and she is a cultural anthropologist who worked in Cairo. I haven't found anything that contradicts her own research.
Hope that helps!
Dear Eve,
Dances are what they are in large part BECAUSE of the cultural baggage. Dance does not grow out of something separate from the culture in which it is developed, but as part of that larger picture.
When we impose our own cultural attitudes, etc, onto a dance form, we then change that dance form to the point that it becomes something other than what it was. This is one of the reasons that I am very much in favor of calling the very diverse dance forms that have been somewhat influenced by belly dance or Middle Eastern folkloric, by other names and leaving off the misleading term, "belly dance".
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Eve,
Dances are what they are in large part BECAUSE of the cultural baggage. Dance does not grow out of something separate from the culture in which it is developed, but as part of that larger picture.
When we impose our own cultural attitudes, etc, onto a dance form, we then change that dance form to the point that it becomes something other than what it was. This is one of the reasons that I am very much in favor of calling the very diverse dance forms that have been somewhat influenced by belly dance or Middle Eastern folkloric, by other names and leaving off the misleading term, "belly dance".
Regards,
A'isha
Pretty good for a kid in a tee shirt and a pair of baggy britches!:clap:Myself dancing Baladi style in Al Husain Cairo Egypt
Tarik,
Not sure how you think quoting me disproves anything I say about the feminine essence of the dance. It is , after all, I who am saying it and I am pretty sure about what I mean. Read CULTURAL CONTEXT in that, loud and clear. I stand by that. Sexuality,even among lower animals, has a feminine and masculine nature and expression. In belly dance the essence of that happens to be feminine, just as it is masculine in Ardeh. Nor do I see how two or three peoples' opinions stack up against the majority of the culture. We can both of course only speak in generalities and that should be evident to anyone following any discussion at any time. Nothing, anywhere is ever 100% (except the vote for Saddam Hussein as president in Iraq, it is said).
A'isha
Pretty good for a kid in a tee shirt and a pair of baggy britches!:clap:
Simply quoting you to show the similarities between our opinion of the dance. We both agree its an emotion element that gives it its character. As I said perhaps our differeing opinion on that character is simply a matter of semantics.
Tarik,
Perhaps, but you still seem to me to insist that the dance has no particular gender essence and I can see clearly that it does, which is just one of the reasons it is considered a female occupation in countries of origin. I suppose, that I should say "the vast majority of people in countries of origin" so that you do not think I mean every single person.
A'isha
Tarik,
You accuse me of being "narrow" in my view, while I see you as being too all inclusive of the opinions of a few rather than taking the majority opinion as legitimate of the culture. Just because I do not see it your way does not mean I am any more narrow in my view than you appear to me.
As for visiting Egypt, you also seem at every turn to negate the fact that I have spent most of my adult life in the company of Arabs, many of whom have been Egyptian, and I state their opinion and not my own. I do not have to go there to have constant exposure to the people. In fact my life every day has more Arab influence than most people who spend three weeks a year over there, with dancers and entertainers, etc. Things for the most part have not changed as far as the attitude toward the dance and it is still an occupation for women. Men who take it up are considered to be gay because it IS a woman's job with feminine implications in countries of origin. Even the implication of gay carries different connotations there than here. You say you have 20 years of experience. I have 33 with the dance and about 30 working for, living with, crying and laughing with, attending the deathbeds and funerals of, the births, weddings of, the baptisms and Eids of listening to many generations of, cooking for and with, caring for babies of, writing for and about, Arabs. I know one hell of a lot more than you give me credit for just because I don't go to Egypt for a few days every year. I have seen people go and come back pretty much the clueless people that they went there as. By saying this I do not mean you, since I think that there are some very few people who think the way that you do, but not nearly the majority. What I resent is your implication that what you are saying is the reality of life as a dancer in Egypt and it is not. Even Tito is seen as "less than a man" because he makes his living as professional dancer. People think he is gay. He is proof that it is still not acceptable for a man to make his living as a dancer. It is not socially correct for women to do so, either, but it is at the very least, seen as the work of females. This IS the context of the dance within the culture and there is no glossing over that.
I have no personal agenda. I support male dancers through my actions and my words. Just ask those that I have had my company hire, ask those that I have coached, ask those that I cheer on from the sidelines. I see them in every way as capable as women when they acknowledge the essence of the dance. I am not in any way excluding men from dancing, but they need to recognize what the dance is before they can perform it. If I were to perform Ardeh, I would need to recognize, accept and work within the boundaries of the meaning and essence of the dance. Belly dance deserves the same from people of all genders.
I have doubts about the compliment you mentioned as sincere because I have known literally hundreds of young Arab guys and I know what they want and how they think. That's why. You can ask any Arab woman and most Arab guys and they will tell you that when a young man approaches a dancer he doesn't know and gives a compliment, he is more than likely after one thing. While this is a general statement, it is also the most likely scenario. I wised up to that very quickly and have had it confirmed many, many times. I would be naive to ignore it.
You show me one letter and try to convince me that all people feel that way. I can show you many things that point the other way. Beledi and Sharghi are part of the same cultural whole, but they are as distinct as Saidi and Sharghi, or Ghawazi and Sharghi, or for that matter, Debke and Sharghi, or Ardeh and Sharghi, etc. They are not the same dance.
Yes, maybe I will visit Egypt some day. I have a standing invitation to do so from Hallah Moustafa and from several Egyptian families. When I do,I am pretty sure that I will hear the same thing from the Egyptians when they are at home as I do when they are visiting or living here. That this is a dance for women and that it has feminine essence.
A'isha
As I keep saying, context and perspective. In you see it as a woman's dance. while I see it from the perspective of yes,but thats only because until quite recently Its only been done on stage by women. The people who I have observed, spent time with and lived with in Egypt do not make such a sharp distinction between the Sharki and Baladi. The letter I showed you is just an illustration of a perspective that is shared by quite a lot of people, not one or two. They see Sharki and Baladi as basically the same thing, just that Sharki is the more dramatic and professional version of the same dance they all learn and do in the Street. This is the attitude that all my friends had, whether Palestinian, Lebanese or Egyptian.
As a matter of fact, the Palestinians I associated with were very political and conservative and whenever I went to a political cultural event, I'd have at least 10 people reminding me no belly dancing allowed, (male or female). I was not in costume, just street clothes doing the same Baladi style we all did together back at the club room. To them it was all belly dance, just that one was in a social context and the other in a professional context. Their opinions and pertspectives are just as valid as those of your friends and are reflective of the way a significant amount of people think, that is all, and all I am explaining to you is that this perspective exists and is valid, I am not making it up. And if you can't acknowledge and accept that this IS in fact the way that many people see it and that it is a valid opinion, then I'm sorry, but in this instance you are being narrow.
I keep telling you again and again, I understand what you are saying, because I have experienced and heard and seen the same opionions, however, there are a lot of people who have a slightly different take on it and you knbow what? THEY ARE BOTH RIGHT! Context, and perspective.
As for Tito's sexuality. Never slept with, don't know anyone who has, would much rather watch Discorery Channel than find out. Do people in Egypt think he's gay for doing what they consider woman's work? HELL YEAH THEY DO, just like we think all male hair dressers and interior decoraters are gay, and? fact is, a lot of them are, AND? However, a lot of them are not. As to male dancers in Egypt, in general. Most of them are considered gay, even the ones in the Folk Troupes, know why. Because dance in general, world wide, is still considered woman's work. How do I know this about Egyptian male dancers? Because I know male dancers from several troupes in Egypt and they all told me how rich guys would try to pick up the guys back stage after the shows. Fact is, a lot of the guys are gay, but not all of them are. This doesn't phase me one way or another because you knbow what? In the entertainment industry, the same thing happens. Everyone knows, whether you are an actor, model, singer dancer, male or female, you will be propositioned. Its pretty much assumed by a lot of people in our culture that many entertainers have slept their way to the top. Granted, its not true of every single person, but it does happen and so what? Telling me people think Tito is gay is like Dugh, really? It makes as much impact on me as saying most people think Dina, or any female dancer is a prostitute. So what? Are we really going to quibble about whether its better for people to think one is a prostitue or a gay? What people think is one thing, having a strong core to stick by the truth of who and what you are regardless is what really matters in the final analysis.
As for visiting there, you really should, and see life from the perspective of all the classes there, not just one. I agree, there are many people who go there and come back just as ignorant as when they left. That is why I don't spend the majority of the time hanging with other dancers, but with ordinary places, with people who are not dancers, in places that are not very glamerous where even a lot of Egyptians fear going.
Doing so will allow you to see and understand things in a way that you can't otherwise and I'm not just talking about the subject of this discussion. When you go there, you will se what I mean. There are just things that you can't understand in books, or even from conversations or living with the folks here, its just completely different.
So once again, for the bazillionth time. I agree with you, its just that there are other ways of looking at the situation. What you call feminine essence, I may be calling emotion, whatever it is, the fact remains, that when I dance, people see that I have what they call the feeling, they see that as they say, I heve an ear for the music. do they find it strange to see me in a costume, when first they see me ALWAYS, but after the first few minutes, they all agree, I'm damn good at what I do, and you know what I AM. Whether I have feminine essence or no feminine essence, I'm damn good at what I do and I know how to entertain a room and I sure as hell know what I am doing out there. If anyone doesn't like it, they don't have to stay, but those who do stay and keep coming back week after week after week love it, because I do it with authenticity, dignity and artistic merit, regardless of the essence and in the end THAT IS WHAT REALLY MATTERS!
Regards
A self deluded dancer lacking in feminine essence, not having enough common sense to know that any Arab, (male or female), who pays him a compliment is really only after his ass.